Are you living the life you want?

Trailblazer said:

No, I don't think it is as easy to change as some people think, not when we have suffered a bad trauma in childhood, and we would probably not be this way if we hadn't suffered that way although there is also a genetic component. Both my parents were depressed and anxious and used alcohol to medicate those conditions, and all three of us children inherited this genetic tendency and have had to fight this all our lives.

I am surprised to hear you ask that given what Baha'u'llah wrote about the world. If there is one thing I am happy about it is that I am not attached to this world. Why would I seek happiness in this world given what Baha'u'llah wrote, and this is just a handful of the many quotes.

"Disencumber yourselves of all attachment to this world and the vanities thereof. Beware that ye approach them not, inasmuch as they prompt you to walk after your own lusts and covetous desires, and hinder you from entering the straight and glorious Path.” Gleanings, p. 276

“Dispute not with any one concerning the things of this world and its affairs, for God hath abandoned them to such as have set their affection upon them. Out of the whole world He hath chosen for Himself the hearts of men—hearts which the hosts of revelation and of utterance can subdue. Thus hath it been ordained by the Fingers of Bahá, upon the Tablet of God’s irrevocable decree, by the behest of Him Who is the Supreme Ordainer, the All-Knowing.” Gleanings, p.279

“Ere long the world and all that is therein shall be as a thing forgotten, and all honor shall belong to the loved ones of thy Lord, the All-Glorious, the Most Bountiful.” Gleanings, p. 306

“Wert thou to consider this world, and realize how fleeting are the things that pertain unto it, thou wouldst choose to tread no path except the path of service to the Cause of thy Lord. None would have the power to deter thee from celebrating His praise, though all men should arise to oppose thee.” Gleanings, p. 314

“The world is but a show, vain and empty, a mere nothing, bearing the semblance of reality. Set not your affections upon it. Break not the bond that uniteth you with your Creator, and be not of those that have erred and strayed from His ways. Verily I say, the world is like the vapor in a desert, which the thirsty dreameth to be water and striveth after it with all his might, until when he cometh unto it, he findeth it to be mere illusion.” Gleanings, p. 328

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What is meant by "world" here? The physical world, or the lust of the eyes and the flesh and the sin of pride? Or something else?

There's multiple ways that the term ," world" is used in the Bible. The cosmos aren't evil of themselves.
Loving the cosmos isn't wrong.

Lusting is wrong because it's inherently selfish, and all sin is based in pride.

Then the question becomes: when is loving our existence here wrong? It's not wrong to enjoy whatever God has given, but we must do so in gratitude instead of greed.

Trailblazer said:

On another note, I know that if I followed my own selfish desires I would not be living the way I am living. I would be thinking about “what I want” rather than what God wants for me.

I want to do God’s will and I keep thinking of what Jesus said:

Luke 9:23-24 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

John 12:24-25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

Matthew 6:19-21 Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

My religion has the same teachings, so that further corroborates what Jesus said. I often wonder how Christians interpret these verses when I listen to Christian radio and they are talking about how they love their lives and all the things they love about this world, food, drink, etc. Do I take these verses too seriously? Why would Jesus say what He did not mean?

Sometimes it is really hard to not think of myself and what I want, but so far what I want more is to live the way my religion teaches me to live, which is the same as what Jesus taught. Either that or I feel it would be better for me to drop out of my religion and start living for myself and all the world has to offer, because I don’t want to be a hypocrite. I could start living for myself right now if I wanted to and if I had free will.

However, I am not sure I want to live for myself, and even if I wanted to I don’t know if I have free will to change the way I have been living for so long and set out on an entirely new path. If this is the life that God has preordained for me I don’t really have a choice. However, even if God preordained some things I don’t believe that everything is preordained as I believe we are free to make some of our own choices, particularly our moral choices.

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Yes, I am happy with my life. My needs are few and they are met. The pandemic detracted from our quality of life, but now that we're vaccinated and having friends over, going out for meals, and doing some daily activities outside the house again, it's pretty much back to baseline.

But about your situation. It seems that there is some cognitive dissonance in you created by accepting a system of belief that doesn't comport with your nature. Why have you decided that the scriptures above constitue good advice? Because Jesus said them? Because Baha'u'llah says something similar (you used the word confirm to describe how two similar opinions from sources you consider authoritative make them both right).

Presently I'm thinking of the celibate priests who have adopted an ism on faith that is in conflict with their basic human nature. When you read what these men have to say about their sexual transgressions, like you, they were living in conflict, were very unhappy, and ended up harming others and themselves. I don't mean that you are like a pedophile, but that you are like a person whose adopted philosophy might leave them unhappy for continually wanting to go another path due to desires that are natural and just don't go away because one wants them to. The priests deny themselves proper sexual outlets, and it seems that you are denying the fulfillment of natural, harmless, desires for no better reason than you read words telling you to.

For starters, my guess is that if you allowed yourself to partake of the world without guilt, you would do so in a measured way, and I suspect it would add to your life without detracting from it unless you just can't get over advice like that from Jesus above. There are all kind of admonitions in those scriptures, but no reasons or explanations for why that is good advice or how it rewards one to accept and follow it. I have reasons to consider that advice poor, but I doubt that you'd want to hear them. Suffice it to say that if it were me giving life advice, it wouldn't sound like deprivation and self-abnegation for no apparent purpose, but one of moderation. It would sound more like self-control and moderation.

Still, I don't see you modifying any of this. How can you at this stage of life? You can't just accept my advice even if it sounded good to you because I'm not Jesus or Baha'u'llah, and I know from personal experience leaving Christianity just how difficult that kind of thing is - modifying your world view. I did it at thirty, and by thirty-five was a comfortable secular humanist, no longer haunted by memories of Jesus admonishing to follow his rules. Major doubt and guilt for a long time. That's the cocoon one must burrow out from to make such changes, and I suspect it is orders of magnitude more difficult in ones sixties and seventies, like quitting cigarettes.

Anyway, being of the world is not a bad thing. Isn't what we're doing now being of the world? We're part of a global communications network which we use to share our thoughts. We discuss world events, and our lives as we are doing now. And if we lived in the same town, we might be friends that visit one another. Jesus would advise you not to make such connections with people not like you. Jesus says marriage to a divorcee or finding a stranger sexually desirable is adultery. Think about that - two natural activities arbitrarily snatched from believers for no apparent reason. Bad advice.

Jesus also says, "Take therefore no thought for tomorrow: for tomorrow shall take thought of the things for itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." Why? I did just the opposite and am glad I did. I planned for my future, this future. I had a clear idea of how I wanted it to be, and pursued that vision. I learned, traveled, found good work, saved, and now can live as I choose. I choose to live in the mountains of Mexico on a lake surrounded by natural beauty, like-minded expats and a wonderful Mexican culture. This wouldn't have happened had I taken the advice you listed above from Jesus.

I imagine that you are also surrounded by beauty, you have your cats, perhaps you enjoy gardening and daily chores. I hope that you're happy in your marriage. What is it you want that you lack, that your religious teaching is making you feel guilty about wanting to do for yourself? Go to restaurants? Travel? Buy a nicer computer or TV? Get a massage? Maybe treat yourself to a spa day? I assume that you can afford these things, and that if you're not partaking in them, it's either because they don't appeal to you, or more likely given your words, you don't allow yourself to enjoy them thanks to a way of thinking that makes you feel conflicted about wanting them without serving you in any constructive way.

Anyway, good luck with this. You are a kind and well-meaning person who deserves to be happy enjoying what life has to offer.

Trailblazer said:

... I often wonder how Christians interpret these verses when I listen to Christian radio and they are talking about how they love their lives and all the things they love about this world, food, drink, etc. Do I take these verses too seriously? Why would Jesus say what He did not mean?

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I think Jesus meant what he said. And Christians, if they truly are disciples of Jesus, should take them more seriously. But, I don’t think it means people can’t enjoy also of the nice things that happen in their life. I think, if people would follow Jesus, it would lead to many enjoyable matters. It is just so that the order of values should be correct.

He said to his disciples, "Therefore I tell you, don't be anxious for your life, what you will eat, nor yet for your body, what you will wear. Life is more than food, and the body is more than clothing. Consider the ravens: they don't sow, they don't reap, they have no warehouse or barn, and God feeds them. How much more valuable are you than birds! Which of you by being anxious can add a cubit to his height? If then you aren't able to do even the least things, why are you anxious about the rest? Consider the lilies, how they grow. They don't toil, neither do they spin; yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. But if this is how God clothes the grass in the field, which today exists, and tomorrow is cast into the oven, how much more will he clothe you, O you of little faith? Don't seek what you will eat or what you will drink; neither be anxious. For the nations of the world seek after all of these things, but your Father knows that you need these things. But seek God's Kingdom, and all these things will be added to you.
Luke 12:22-31

Trailblazer said:

...However, I am not sure I want to live for myself, and even if I wanted to I don’t know if I have free will to change the way I have been living for so long and set out on an entirely new path. ...

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I don’t think free will means person is omnipotent and things also go always as person wants. I think it means only that you are free to want whatever you want. Maybe it would be good, if people would think more about, what they really want, what is really important and good.

Trailblazer said:

Are you living the life you want? Are you living the life you chose? I guess if you are happy with your life you probably don’t think about this much, but what about people who are not happy with their lives? What about people who wish their lives were different? Have you ever tried to make any major changes in your life? Do you feel stuck, as if you really have no free will to change? Are you ashamed or embarrassed to admit everything is not just perfect on this forum, as if it is somehow YOUR fault?

I’m not ashamed or embarrassed, because I know it is not my fault things have turned out this way since I have spent most of my life trying to improve my life while also doing what I believed would benefit others, ever since I went into recovery 37 years ago. However, I believe that free will is very limited and much of what happens in life is preordained by God. What do you think?

I think about this often and I am at a turning point so I am thinking about it a lot right now. I might have to make some changes that will greatly impact my life and I might choose to make some changes that will greatly impact my life. Sometimes I feel as if God is guiding me along in the direction He wants me to go, so will God guide me through these changes if I have to make them or choose to make them?

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

On another note, I know that if I followed my own selfish desires I would not be living the way I am living. I would be thinking about “what I want” rather than what God wants for me.

I want to do God’s will and I keep thinking of what Jesus said:

Luke 9:23-24 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

John 12:24-25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

Matthew 6:19-21 Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

My religion has the same teachings, so that further corroborates what Jesus said. I often wonder how Christians interpret these verses when I listen to Christian radio and they are talking about how they love their lives and all the things they love about this world, food, drink, etc. Do I take these verses too seriously? Why would Jesus say what He did not mean?

Sometimes it is really hard to not think of myself and what I want, but so far what I want more is to live the way my religion teaches me to live, which is the same as what Jesus taught. Either that or I feel it would be better for me to drop out of my religion and start living for myself and all the world has to offer, because I don’t want to be a hypocrite. I could start living for myself right now if I wanted to and if I had free will.

However, I am not sure I want to live for myself, and even if I wanted to I don’t know if I have free will to change the way I have been living for so long and set out on an entirely new path. If this is the life that God has preordained for me I don’t really have a choice. However, even if God preordained some things I don’t believe that everything is preordained as I believe we are free to make some of our own choices, particularly our moral choices.

If I sound somewhat conflicted that is because I am. I want to love God and follow the teachings of Jesus and Baha’u’llah but another part of me wants nothing to do with God or religion owing to a lot of hurt they have caused me. However, it is not as if I love the worldly things of this life either, but since everyone else seems to love worldly things, I feel very much alone.

I am sorry this is so long, but my life situation has finally come to a head. I try to be completely self-sufficient but no man is an island.

Thanks for listening, Trailblazer.

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I often struggle with the fact that I'm on disability and it's expensive to the nation. Then maybe I can be happily married. Other than that though I am completely satisfied.

syo said:

I only wish I had more money. All else is perfect.

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I have more money than I will ever need or use. I only wish I had all those other things that people have.

Wildswanderer said:

What is meant by "world" here? The physical world, or the lust of the eyes and the flesh and the sin of pride? Or something else?

There's multiple ways that the term ," world" is used in the Bible.

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The world used in this context means reliance upon things of this world vs. reliance upon God.

Matthew 6:19-21 Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

“The peoples of the world are fast asleep. Were they to wake from their slumber, they would hasten with eagerness unto God, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. They would cast away everything they possess, be it all the treasures of the earth, that their Lord may remember them to the extent of addressing to them but one word.” Gleanings, p. 137

“Place not thy reliance on thy treasures. Put thy whole confidence in the grace of God, thy Lord. Let Him be thy trust in whatever thou doest, and be of them that have submitted themselves to His Will. Let Him be thy helper and enrich thyself with His treasures, for with Him are the treasuries of the heavens and of the earth.”
Gleanings, pp.234-235

Wildswanderer said:

The cosmos aren't evil of themselves. Loving the cosmos isn't wrong.

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No, the world is not evil in itself, it is our attitude towards it that can be problematic. According to Jesus, loving things that are of men and not of God comes with a steep price.

Matthew 16:23-26 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

According to Jesus loving our lives in this world also comes with a steep price.

John 12:24-26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

The following passages correspond to what Jesus said about self and the world.

“Say: Deliver your souls, O people, from the bondage of self, and purify them from all attachment to anything besides Me. Remembrance of Me cleanseth all things from defilement, could ye but perceive it. Say: Were all created things to be entirely divested of the veil of worldly vanity and desire, the Hand of God would in this Day clothe them, one and all, with the robe “He doeth whatsoever He willeth in the kingdom of creation,” that thereby the sign of His sovereignty might be manifested in all things. Exalted then be He, the Sovereign Lord of all, the Almighty, the Supreme Protector, the All-Glorious, the Most Powerful.”
Gleanings, pp. 294-295

“The world is but a show, vain and empty, a mere nothing, bearing the semblance of reality. Set not your affections upon it. Break not the bond that uniteth you with your Creator, and be not of those that have erred and strayed from His ways. Verily I say, the world is like the vapor in a desert, which the thirsty dreameth to be water and striveth after it with all his might, until when he cometh unto it, he findeth it to be mere illusion.” Gleanings, pp. 328-329

Trailblazer said:

I have more money than I will ever need or use. I only wish I had all those other things that people have.

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The fact that I'm poor and broke helped me overcome obstacles. And now all I need is money.

1213 said:

I think Jesus meant what he said. And Christians, if they truly are disciples of Jesus, should take them more seriously. But, I don’t think it means people can’t enjoy also of the nice things that happen in their life. I think, if people would follow Jesus, it would lead to many enjoyable matters. It is just so that the order of values should be correct.

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I agree, people can enjoy the nice things in their lives as long as the order of values are correct. The problem I have is with scriptures that are seemingly contradict that, and you wonder why I am confused, as I said in my OP?

How do you reconcile these verses to thinking of self and loving our lives in this world? These are not parables that we have to figure out the meanings of, they are clearly written verses.

Luke 9:23-24 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

John 12:24-26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

I have the same problem with some passages of Baha'u'llah that I cannot reconcile. To me, they seem contradictory, like you can’t have your cake and eat it to and then He says you can have your cake and eat it too (see passage below).

Prophets of God should not say things that are contradictory and then expect their followers to figure out what they mean. People like me will take what they say literally although most people will read it and look for the loopholes just so they can go on enjoying life as they please. That is the material part of our human nature.

In the following passage Baha'u'llah says to disencumber ourselves of all attachment to this world and the vanities thereof and approach them not because they prevent us from entering the straight and glorious Path.

“Cleanse from your hearts the love of worldly things, from your tongues every remembrance except His remembrance, from your entire being whatsoever may deter you from beholding His face, or may tempt you to follow the promptings of your evil and corrupt inclinations. Let God be your fear, O people, and be ye of them that tread the path of righteousness....... Disencumber yourselves of all attachment to this world and the vanities thereof. Beware that ye approach them not, inasmuch as they prompt you to walk after your own lusts and covetous desires, and hinder you from entering the straight and glorious Path.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 275-276

Then in the following passage Baha'u'llah says that what prevents us from loving God is nothing but the world and that we should flee it, but in the same passage He says that we can partake of the good things which God hath allowed us as long as it does not intervene between us and God.

“Whatsoever deterreth you, in this Day, from loving God is nothing but the world. Flee it, that ye may be numbered with the blest. Should a man wish to adorn himself with the ornaments of the earth, to wear its apparels, or partake of the benefits it can bestow, no harm can befall him, if he alloweth nothing whatever to intervene between him and God, for God hath ordained every good thing, whether created in the heavens or in the earth, for such of His servants as truly believe in Him. Eat ye, O people, of the good things which God hath allowed you, and deprive not yourselves from His wondrous bounties. Render thanks and praise unto Him, and be of them that are truly thankful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 276

Do you see the contradiction? First He says those things of the world are what prevent us from loving God and then He says we can partake of those things as long as they don't intervene between us and God.

From my own life experience I know that they can and do intervene so I am not going down that road again. For most is my life I was distant from God and I know that it was because of those worldly things I was attached to. I never even thought about God in those days even though I was a Baha'i all throughout those days.

1213 said:

I don’t think free will means person is omnipotent and things also go always as person wants. I think it means only that you are free to want whatever you want. Maybe it would be good, if people would think more about, what they really want, what is really important and good.

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I think free will means we are free to want whatever we want and do 'some' things we want to do but we cannot do everything we want to do because free will is constrained by our abilities and life circumstances. I agree that it would be good if while people are thinking about what they really want, they think about whether it is really important and good.

syo said:

The fact that I'm poor and broke helped me overcome obstacles. And now all I need is money.

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How did being poor and broke help you overcome obstacles?
You can always get money but you usually have to earn it.

Trailblazer said:

The world used in this context means reliance upon things of this world vs. reliance upon God.

Matthew 6:19-21 Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

“The peoples of the world are fast asleep. Were they to wake from their slumber, they would hasten with eagerness unto God, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. They would cast away everything they possess, be it all the treasures of the earth, that their Lord may remember them to the extent of addressing to them but one word.” Gleanings, p. 137

“Place not thy reliance on thy treasures. Put thy whole confidence in the grace of God, thy Lord. Let Him be thy trust in whatever thou doest, and be of them that have submitted themselves to His Will. Let Him be thy helper and enrich thyself with His treasures, for with Him are the treasuries of the heavens and of the earth.”
Gleanings, pp.234-235

No, the world is not evil in itself, it is our attitude towards it that can be problematic. According to Jesus, loving things that are of men and not of God comes with a steep price.

Matthew 16:23-26 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

According to Jesus loving our lives in this world also comes with a steep price.

John 12:24-26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

The following passages correspond to what Jesus said about self and the world.

“Say: Deliver your souls, O people, from the bondage of self, and purify them from all attachment to anything besides Me. Remembrance of Me cleanseth all things from defilement, could ye but perceive it. Say: Were all created things to be entirely divested of the veil of worldly vanity and desire, the Hand of God would in this Day clothe them, one and all, with the robe “He doeth whatsoever He willeth in the kingdom of creation,” that thereby the sign of His sovereignty might be manifested in all things. Exalted then be He, the Sovereign Lord of all, the Almighty, the Supreme Protector, the All-Glorious, the Most Powerful.”
Gleanings, pp. 294-295

“The world is but a show, vain and empty, a mere nothing, bearing the semblance of reality. Set not your affections upon it. Break not the bond that uniteth you with your Creator, and be not of those that have erred and strayed from His ways. Verily I say, the world is like the vapor in a desert, which the thirsty dreameth to be water and striveth after it with all his might, until when he cometh unto it, he findeth it to be mere illusion.” Gleanings, pp. 328-329

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The life being referred to here is what? Not our redeemed life! Not our eternal life that begins immediately upon salvation. We don't hate those.
It's the same concept as loving things and position and power and man's praise more than God that we find in other parts of scripture.
It's not physical life we are to hate, it's a matter of what holds the ultimate place in our lives. Just as we aren't to literally hate our family , but to love God even more than them.

It Aint Necessarily So said:

Yes, I am happy with my life. My needs are few and they are met. The pandemic detracted from our quality of life, but now that we're vaccinated and having friends over, going out for meals, and doing some daily activities outside the house again, it's pretty much back to baseline.

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I am glad to hear that. I remember that you were going through a tough time there for a while at the beginning of the pandemic. My baseline never really changed during the pandemic except for working from home instead of in the office which was a huge improvement. I still only go grocery shopping twice a week but nowhere else except to the veterinarian.

It Aint Necessarily So said:

But about your situation. It seems that there is some cognitive dissonance in you created by accepting a system of belief that doesn't comport with your nature. Why have you decided that the scriptures above constitute good advice? Because Jesus said them? Because Baha'u'llah says something similar (you used the word confirm to describe how two similar opinions from sources you consider authoritative make them both right).

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I believe all human have two natures, a material nature and a spiritual nature. I think what is happening to me now is that my material nature and my spiritual nature are at war with each other. For nine long years I have put any possible desires I might have had aside for my religion and my spiritual growth and everything else was deferred for that except that I retained my job. I really don't see how I can get my life back now even if I want to. I guess I am pretty angry about that and sometimes it comes out in what I say, mostly only to my husband but sometimes on this forum.

The years that preceded those nine years I was mostly pursuing more education and a new career but before that I was living for the things of this world. That was not a happy life, so why would I want to return to it? I could still enjoy the world more than I do without interfering with my spiritual growth and Baha'i teaching activities, I just don't seem to have any interest anymore. Maybe it is just the force of habit. I love my cats and other animals and birds and nature but i don't care about anything physical except getting my exercise and I don;']t care about having any more material things than I already have since I have too many things already, and never use them. One thing I would probably like is travel and take vacations again, but my life situation renders that impossible, right now anyway. My husband is a real fly in the ointment as he doesn't want to go anywhere or do anything.

It Aint Necessarily So said:

Presently I'm thinking of the celibate priests who have adopted an ism on faith that is in conflict with their basic human nature. When you read what these men have to say about their sexual transgressions, like you, they were living in conflict, were very unhappy, and ended up harming others and themselves. I don't mean that you are like a pedophile, but that you are like a person whose adopted philosophy might leave them unhappy for continually wanting to go another path due to desires that are natural and just don't go away because one wants them to. The priests deny themselves proper sexual outlets, and it seems that you are denying the fulfillment of natural, harmless, desires for no better reason than you read words telling you to.

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The Baha'i Faith does not teach that celibacy is a desirable lifestyle, in fact it teaches that we should marry and have a normal sex life. Years ago when I first got married and for many years after that, I was somewhat of a sex addict but I got that out of my system and lost interest after a certain age when I realized how many more important things there are in life. Admittedly, one reason I lost interest is because of what my religion teaches about self and passion and I did not want to be like that anymore, as it was a miserable existence. Physical pleasure is just that and it cannot compare with spiritual happiness.

I am much happier since I put that aside although I still struggle with everything life throws at me, mostly health issues and many deaths of our many cats, and also problems with the rental houses and tenants. Now on top of that I have my husband's many medical issues. If I had no cats my sadness sadness would be minimal but there would be no joy either since they are the main source of my joy. Sadly, we have lost six of our older cats in the last year and a half but we have adopted and purchased some younger cats, so we now have eight cats instead of 10 and al are healthy except the one older cat that is the only one we have left. She has dental problems and early stage kidney disease but she is eating and holding her own, so I don't expect to be losing any more cats any time soon (knock on wood).

As for the rental houses one of them is stable right now and has been for a long time, finally, after many years of torment with home repairs and bad tenants. That house is a good source of income. The other rental house has been very problematic since the tenant has always been behind on his rent and it only got worse after Covid-19, and he has not paid any rent for 15 months. The money appropriated by the Biden bill for rental assistance has been approved by the county rental assistance program to pay all that rent but I am still waiting for the payment and now I am getting worried since I have not heard back for a long time. After that is paid all he will owe me for is September rent but there is no indication for him that he will be paying it and the eviction moratorium has been extended again. This is infuriating. Sure people need a place to live but landlords also need rent monies. There is NO reason that tenant cannot get some kind of job and pay the rent, as employers are in desperately in need of employees and cannot even fill jobs!

It Aint Necessarily So said:

For starters, my guess is that if you allowed yourself to partake of the world without guilt, you would do so in a measured way, and I suspect it would add to your life without detracting from it unless you just can't get over advice like that from Jesus above. There are all kind of admonitions in those scriptures, but no reasons or explanations for why that is good advice or how it rewards one to accept and follow it. I have reasons to consider that advice poor, but I doubt that you'd want to hear them. Suffice it to say that if it were me giving life advice, it wouldn't sound like deprivation and self-abnegation for no apparent purpose, but one of moderation. It would sound more like self-control and moderation.

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The Baha'i Faith does not teach either deprivation and self-abnegation, especially for no apparent purpose, but rather it teaches moderation in all things, so it is not really the fault of the religion but rather my own psychological issues. However, as you said I could easily stand to partake of the world more if I wanted to. I don't think it would detract from spiritual life or nearness to God and it might even give me something to be thankful to God for, as Baha'u'llah said.

“Should a man wish to adorn himself with the ornaments of the earth, to wear its apparels, or partake of the benefits it can bestow, no harm can befall him, if he alloweth nothing whatever to intervene between him and God, for God hath ordained every good thing, whether created in the heavens or in the earth, for such of His servants as truly believe in Him. Eat ye, O people, of the good things which God hath allowed you, and deprive not yourselves from His wondrous bounties. Render thanks and praise unto Him, and be of them that are truly thankful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 276

(Continued on next post)

It Aint Necessarily So said:

Still, I don't see you modifying any of this. How can you at this stage of life? You can't just accept my advice even if it sounded good to you because I'm not Jesus or Baha'u'llah, and I know from personal experience leaving Christianity just how difficult that kind of thing is - modifying your world view. I did it at thirty, and by thirty-five was a comfortable secular humanist, no longer haunted by memories of Jesus admonishing to follow his rules. Major doubt and guilt for a long time. That's the cocoon one must burrow out from to make such changes, and I suspect it is orders of magnitude more difficult in ones sixties and seventies, like quitting cigarettes.

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I am glad for you that you did that when you were younger. I kind of did the opposite as I was not weighed down by any guilt back in my early adulthood and middle age, not until I reached age 60. I was a Baha'i all during those years but I did not read the scriptures much and I did not take them seriously. Even now, I probably take them too seriously but maybe I am making up for lost time. I did lose a lot of time during all those years when I lived as if I had no religion at all.

Funny you mention guilt. A few weeks ago I wrote a post entitled "What does religion do to people?" It starts out like this and then it continues:

What does religion do to people and why do so many people put up with it?
Religion instills guilt and shame and fear and I am sick to death of it.

I often write posts I plan to post later, at the appropriate time, and then I think of another topic that is more pressing and post that instead. I cannot keep up with more than a couple of threads at a time.

I wrote another thread entitled "Why I cannot forgive God" and it is a real humdinger if I may say so myself, but I have held that in abeyance until the appropriate time comes.

It Aint Necessarily So said:

Anyway, being of the world is not a bad thing. Isn't what we're doing now being of the world? We're part of a global communications network which we use to share our thoughts. We discuss world events, and our lives as we are doing now. And if we lived in the same town, we might be friends that visit one another. Jesus would advise you not to make such connections with people not like you. Jesus says marriage to a divorcee or finding a stranger sexually desirable is adultery. Think about that - two natural activities arbitrarily snatched from believers for no apparent reason. Bad advice.

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What you are talking about is not what I consider "of the world." Unlike Christians, Baha'is are enjoined to participate in this world on all fronts, and most Baha'is are very active in the world, including associating with people of all religions, races, nationalities, etc. Covid-19 put a real damper on in-person Baha'i activities but they continue to meet and accomplish the same things in Zoom meetings.

It Aint Necessarily So said:

Jesus also says, "Take therefore no thought for tomorrow: for tomorrow shall take thought of the things for itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." Why? I did just the opposite and am glad I did. I planned for my future, this future. I had a clear idea of how I wanted it to be, and pursued that vision. I learned, traveled, found good work, saved, and now can live as I choose. I choose to live in the mountains of Mexico on a lake surrounded by natural beauty, like-minded expats and a wonderful Mexican culture. This wouldn't have happened had I taken the advice you listed above from Jesus.

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Everyone is very different in how they live their lives. Most people plan for the future but some of us don't like doing that and I don't think that is related to religion. How nat people even know Jesus said that? For example, I recently discovered that like me, @Nimos, one of my favorite atheists, also does not plan anything. I don't know why, but I have never been a planner, I just allow life to unfold. I never planned to get married, go to college, or buy three houses. I just availed myself of the opportunities as they arose.

It Aint Necessarily So said:

I imagine that you are also surrounded by beauty, you have your cats, perhaps you enjoy gardening and daily chores. I hope that you're happy in your marriage. What is it you want that you lack, that your religious teaching is making you feel guilty about wanting to do for yourself? Go to restaurants? Travel? Buy a nicer computer or TV? Get a massage? Maybe treat yourself to a spa day? I assume that you can afford these things, and that if you're not partaking in them, it's either because they don't appeal to you, or more likely given your words, you don't allow yourself to enjoy them thanks to a way of thinking that makes you feel conflicted about wanting them without serving you in any constructive way.

Anyway, good luck with this. You are a kind and well-meaning person who deserves to be happy enjoying what life has to offer.

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Thanks for your kind thoughts and suggestions. I am surrounded by natural beauty and I go on walks in it daily. I have never been into gardening and I finally allowed the property to become a wildlife refuge since i never went out in the yard anyway and I like to watch birds and wildlife.

My husband and I used to go to restaurants and on vacations but not anymore. All the cat illnesses and deaths and the rental house problems took their toll. The last six months is the first time in 20 years that we have not had a cat or cats who were seriously ill or dying. I dealt with it but only in retrospect do I realize the toll it took on my life.

My husband and I have had our issues so the marriage is not a source of happiness for me or him, but it is what it is after over 36 years and now is not the time to be making any big changes with my job on the line. If I am forced to retire my whole life could change but that is not here yet. My husband also has medical problems so I could not abandon him and expect him to care for himself since I have always been the one who takes care of things.

Trailblazer said:

What is it you are attached to? I don't see you as worldly. Just liking to watch football and some TV programs does not make you worldly. I love nature, animals and trees and beautiful scenery and living in the country but I don't consider that worldly. Baha'u'llah also loved the country and nature.

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Watching football is worldly, I believe. What is spiritual about it? I am always rooting for one team to beat another in the games I watch. We should wish for the best for everybody, not one team over another. Competition is only good when it is competition with yourself.

I am also against a certain political party. I should not be political. I am ambivalent about this. I hate politics, but I oppose a political party. It's more I oppose than endorse the other party.

Fictional movies and TV programs can be spiritual sometimes.

Trailblazer said:

Are you living the life you want? Are you living the life you chose? I guess if you are happy with your life you probably don’t think about this much, but what about people who are not happy with their lives? What about people who wish their lives were different? Have you ever tried to make any major changes in your life? Do you feel stuck, as if you really have no free will to change? Are you ashamed or embarrassed to admit everything is not just perfect on this forum, as if it is somehow YOUR fault?

I’m not ashamed or embarrassed, because I know it is not my fault things have turned out this way since I have spent most of my life trying to improve my life while also doing what I believed would benefit others, ever since I went into recovery 37 years ago. However, I believe that free will is very limited and much of what happens in life is preordained by God. What do you think?

I think about this often and I am at a turning point so I am thinking about it a lot right now. I might have to make some changes that will greatly impact my life and I might choose to make some changes that will greatly impact my life. Sometimes I feel as if God is guiding me along in the direction He wants me to go, so will God guide me through these changes if I have to make them or choose to make them?

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

On another note, I know that if I followed my own selfish desires I would not be living the way I am living. I would be thinking about “what I want” rather than what God wants for me.

I want to do God’s will and I keep thinking of what Jesus said:

Luke 9:23-24 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

John 12:24-25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

Matthew 6:19-21 Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

My religion has the same teachings, so that further corroborates what Jesus said. I often wonder how Christians interpret these verses when I listen to Christian radio and they are talking about how they love their lives and all the things they love about this world, food, drink, etc. Do I take these verses too seriously? Why would Jesus say what He did not mean?

Sometimes it is really hard to not think of myself and what I want, but so far what I want more is to live the way my religion teaches me to live, which is the same as what Jesus taught. Either that or I feel it would be better for me to drop out of my religion and start living for myself and all the world has to offer, because I don’t want to be a hypocrite. I could start living for myself right now if I wanted to and if I had free will.

However, I am not sure I want to live for myself, and even if I wanted to I don’t know if I have free will to change the way I have been living for so long and set out on an entirely new path. If this is the life that God has preordained for me I don’t really have a choice. However, even if God preordained some things I don’t believe that everything is preordained as I believe we are free to make some of our own choices, particularly our moral choices.

If I sound somewhat conflicted that is because I am. I want to love God and follow the teachings of Jesus and Baha’u’llah but another part of me wants nothing to do with God or religion owing to a lot of hurt they have caused me. However, it is not as if I love the worldly things of this life either, but since everyone else seems to love worldly things, I feel very much alone.

I am sorry this is so long, but my life situation has finally come to a head. I try to be completely self-sufficient but no man is an island.

Thanks for listening, Trailblazer.

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I don't know. I'm in a financial puzzle. I can't make more than 2,400 in my keep my rent at a low amount and can't make over 2,000 in SSI to keep my health insurance and primary income. So, it makes it hard to work full-time if I can do that at all. Then you got the COVID vaccine thing that limits me where I can go and most likely in the future I'd be stuck home until they say they'll relax on passports. But I mostly go to three places during the week and maybe visit family once or twice every couple of months. I have no long-term vision other than to get out of my past. More of an inward growth and freedom than an outer one though I feel they are both important in living a healthy life.

Not sure how to crouch your situation, though. I wish I had a magic wand.

Wildswanderer said:

The life being referred to here is what? Not our redeemed life! Not our eternal life that begins immediately upon salvation. We don't hate those.
It's the same concept as loving things and position and power and man's praise more than God that we find in other parts of scripture.
It's not physical life we are to hate, it's a matter of what holds the ultimate place in our lives. Just as we aren't to literally hate our family , but to love God even more than them.

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John 12:25 "He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal."

So my interpretation of that verse is that it is our life in this world.

What does John 12:25 mean?
In other passages, Jesus speaks of the fundamental choice between the world and God (Matthew 10:39; Mark 8:35–36). A person cannot cling to worldly things and still make God their top priority. In prior verses, Jesus used the analogy of a seed: it must "die" in order to fulfill its purpose. The symbolism is that of a seed being planted, then growing to maturity. Those who seek to truly follow Christ have to—as it would seem to the world—lose everything. The end result, however, is exactly what the seed—the believer—was always intended for, which is something greater and more glorious (1 Corinthians 15:36–42).

It's important to understand the narrow context of Jesus' words here. The point is not that only those who live in deliberate poverty will be saved. Nor is it that a person must perform the right kind of actions in order to be with God in eternity. Rather, this is a reference to a person's state of mind. This is why Jesus uses the dichotomy of "love" and "hate," with respect to one's earthly life. Just as Jesus was not commanding people to objectively "hate" their family (Luke 14:26), He is not telling us to objectively "hate" our lives. Rather, He's saying that we ought to put 100% of our priority, emphasis, and effort into the will of God. Those who want to cling to the world, instead of Christ, demonstrate that they "love" the world too much to sincerely follow Him (Mark 10:21–23)
What does John 12:25 mean?

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My definition of eternal life is probably different from your definition since I do not associate eternal life with being redeemed (salvation) since I do not believe there is anything to be saved from, except our selves, i.e., our lower selfish nature.

When Jesus referred to eternal life, I believe that He was referring a quality of life, spiritual life, loving God and being close to God. The soul is eternal, the body perishes. That is why Jesus said: John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life

All the verses below refer to eternal life of the soul, not life of the physical body.

John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

All souls will continue to exist in the spiritual world after the body dies but not all souls will have eternal life (everlasting life). Eternal life refers to a “quality” of life, nearness to God which, according to Jesus, comes from believing in Him.

“The immortality of the spirit is mentioned in the Holy Books; it is the fundamental basis of the divine religions. Now punishments and rewards are said to be of two kinds: first, the rewards and punishments of this life; second, those of the other world. But the paradise and hell of existence are found in all the worlds of God, whether in this world or in the spiritual heavenly worlds. Gaining these rewards is the gaining of eternal life. That is why Christ said, “Act in such a way that you may find eternal life, and that you may be born of water and the spirit, so that you may enter into the Kingdom.” 2” Some Answered Questions, p. 223

The souls of people who are distant from God will not have eternal life; although their soul will continue to exist in the spiritual world after their physical body dies they will be “as dead” compared to those souls who are close to God.

“In the same way, the souls who are veiled from God, although they exist in this world and in the world after death, are, in comparison with the holy existence of the children of the Kingdom of God, nonexisting and separated from God.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 243

Trailblazer said:

Are you living the life you want? Are you living the life you chose? I guess if you are happy with your life you probably don’t think about this much, but what about people who are not happy with their lives? What about people who wish their lives were different? Have you ever tried to make any major changes in your life? Do you feel stuck, as if you really have no free will to change? Are you ashamed or embarrassed to admit everything is not just perfect on this forum, as if it is somehow YOUR fault?

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I am living the life I want; perhaps a bit later than I wanted to due to my disability and getting sidetracked by the vagaries of youthful impulsiveness, but the life that I want nonetheless.

As for your conundrum: you have made it sound like you have a choice between faith and happiness. I find that very distressing. I would never talk someone out of their faith (that is their choice to make), but I believe you deserve happiness. I hope you’re able to resolve this in a way you’re comfortable with.

Meow Mix said:

As for your conundrum: you have made it sound like you have a choice between faith and happiness. I find that very distressing. I would never talk someone out of their faith (that is their choice to make), but I believe you deserve happiness. I hope you’re able to resolve this in a way you’re comfortable with.

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It might sound like that but that is not really the way it is. True, I have to sacrifice some material happiness for spiritual happiness, but I don't care much about material happiness anyhow... Been there, done that.

Thanks, I am always in the process of resolving something and nothing ever seems to get resolved before something else happens. That's my life.

Trailblazer said:

The Baha'i Faith does not teach either deprivation and self-abnegation, especially for no apparent purpose, but rather it teaches moderation in all things, so it is not really the fault of the religion but rather my own psychological issues. However, as you said I could easily stand to partake of the world more if I wanted to. I don't think it would detract from spiritual life or nearness to God and it might even give me something to be thankful to God for, as Baha'u'llah said.

“Should a man wish to adorn himself with the ornaments of the earth, to wear its apparels, or partake of the benefits it can bestow, no harm can befall him, if he alloweth nothing whatever to intervene between him and God, for God hath ordained every good thing, whether created in the heavens or in the earth, for such of His servants as truly believe in Him. Eat ye, O people, of the good things which God hath allowed you, and deprive not yourselves from His wondrous bounties. Render thanks and praise unto Him, and be of them that are truly thankful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 276

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OK. Perhaps I misunderstood you. I thought that you were expressing discontent over the conflict between your religious beliefs and your desires. You cited several Christian scriptures advocating a life of abstinence and withdrawal, and seemed to say that Baha'u'llah had made similar statements which you saw as confirmation of their validity. You seemed to be in conflict over instructions to not be a part of the world (I'm still not sure what that means, but I understand it to mean 'just say no' to what's going on outside one's religious community).

Now, you're showing me something different, more in accord with what what I would advise, and what seems to me to be a contradiction of Jesus's advice.

Trailblazer said:

What you are talking about is not what I consider "of the world." Unlike Christians, Baha'is are enjoined to participate in this world on all fronts, and most Baha'is are very active in the world, including associating with people of all religions, races, nationalities, etc. Covid-19 put a real damper on in-person Baha'i activities but they continue to meet and accomplish the same things in Zoom meetings.

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This is what has me confused. What did you understand those scriptures from Jesus to mean that you quoted them as if you considered them wise?

Trailblazer said:

Most people plan for the future but some of us don't like doing that and I don't think that is related to religion.

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I cited a Christian scripture that said to not plan for one's future as an example of what I consider bad advice coming from the same source you quoted earlier, which is why I don't consider it a good place to go for life advice.

Trailblazer said:

My husband and I used to go to restaurants and on vacations but not anymore. All the cat illnesses and deaths and the rental house problems took their toll. My husband and I have had our issues so the marriage is not a source of happiness for me or him, but it is what it is after over 36 years and now is not the time to be making any big changes with my job on the line. If I am forced to retire my whole life could change but that is not here yet. My husband also has medical problems so I could not abandon him and expect him to care for himself since I have always been the one who takes care of things.

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It seems that your unhappiness might not be related to "the world," but to these kinds of matters at home. I understand why they might take a toll on you. And maybe why you wanted to start this thread. When I thought that you were under the spell of bad religious advice creating cognitive dissonance, I thought that you could benefit by seeing it as an impediment and learning to disregard some of it. But these are different types of matters that are approached differently, and I trust you will - acceptance. Your religion will likely help you with that. Good luck.

Trailblazer said:

In the same way, the souls who are veiled from God, although they exist in this world and in the world after death, are, in comparison with the holy existence of the children of the Kingdom of God, nonexisting and separated from God.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 243

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Sounds like hell to me.

Trailblazer said:

...
How do you reconcile these verses to thinking of self and loving our lives in this world? These are not parables that we have to figure out the meanings of, they are clearly written verses.

Luke 9:23-24 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

John 12:24-26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also ...

“Cleanse from your hearts the love of worldly things, from your tongues every remembrance except His remembrance, from your entire being whatsoever may deter you from beholding His face, or may tempt you to follow the promptings of your evil and corrupt inclinations. Let God be your fear, O people, and be ye of them that tread the path of righteousness....... Disencumber yourselves of all attachment to this world and the vanities thereof. Beware that ye approach them not, inasmuch as they prompt you to walk after your own lusts and covetous desires, and hinder you from entering the straight and glorious Path.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 275-276

Then in the following passage Baha'u'llah says that what prevents us from loving God is nothing but the world and that we should flee it, but in the same passage He says that we can partake of the good things which God hath allowed us as long as it does not intervene between us and God.

“Whatsoever deterreth you, in this Day, from loving God is nothing but the world. Flee it, that ye may be numbered with the blest. Should a man wish to adorn himself with the ornaments of the earth, to wear its apparels, or partake of the benefits it can bestow, no harm can befall him, if he alloweth nothing whatever to intervene between him and God, for God hath ordained every good thing, whether created in the heavens or in the earth, for such of His servants as truly believe in Him. Eat ye, O people, of the good things which God hath allowed you, and deprive not yourselves from His wondrous bounties. Render thanks and praise unto Him, and be of them that are truly thankful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 276

Do you see the contradiction? First He says those things of the world are what prevent us from loving God and then He says we can partake of those things as long as they don't intervene between us and God....

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For me Jesus is the king and I want to be loyal to him. For me Bahá’u’lláh is not the king. But, I think the point here is basically that God is the source of everything, without God, we would have nothing. Therefore, if we reject God, who is the one who gives life, we also reject life and everything in it. This is why, if there is a situation where we must choose either God or world, it would be best to choose God. I don’t think we are always in that situation. And I think we can accept all nice things we can have in this life with thanks to God as long as it doesn’t become greater than God for us.

For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be rejected, if it is received with thanksgiving.
1 Tim. 4:4

And actually, by keeping God’s commandments, I think person can become very successful and prosperous. When that happens, there is a great risk that it corrupts person, all the possessions can start to rule the person. That is why worldly things can be dangerous and that I think can be one reason to hate it all. It is really important to keep the focus on correct path. But, it is also not good to go too far to the opposite direction from taking all to taking nothing, because being intentionally miserable can serve pride/vanity and be as bad.

For bodily exercise has some value, but godliness has value for all things, having the promise of the life which is now, and of that which is to come.
1 Tim. 4:8

Moreover when you fast, don't be like the hypocrites, with sad faces. For they disfigure their faces, that they may be seen by men to be fasting. Most assuredly I tell you, they have received their reward.
Matt. 6:16

I mean with this, denying nice things just to look a “good believer”, can be as bad, because it is hypocrite. The goal in the Bible is that person is righteous inside, then he has good understanding and motives to do what is good and right. Then he is loyal to God in all situations truly, not just outside attempt to look correct believer, or trying to earn reward from God.