Poll: Gays should be allowed to serve openly in the Military

krashlocke · Feb 4, 2007

Buttercup said:
Why on earth would you even suggest that gay men be placed in female barracks? You honestly think gay men would want that?

So you suggest two additional facilities for gays and lesbians? What about bisexuals? Where does the line get drawn?

The only solution that I've ever figured out for this issue is unisex bathrooms, barracks, &c. That said, I wonder if the occurances of sexual assault would be like?

Buttercup · Feb 4, 2007

yuvgotmel said:
To standing_alone and others,

Many of you seem to be upset at the wrong people, namely myself and a couple of others, who have been in the military, that have had the courage to speak about the facts of group dynamics. But that does not make us the "bad guy."

We are merely the messengers here....describing what we have witnessed firsthand.

You can continue to tell us directly or allude to us being "insecure" but that does not make us so. And, more importantly, it won't change the fact of what we (that have been in the military) have been telling you either.

I understand you, Mel. And the fact that you're just trying to voice the opposing side and the problems therein. I admire your willingness to do so in fact.

Unless we have a mandated clause allowing gays to serve in the military, our conversation is all for naught really. Unless it's "the law" that gays can serve, these type of issues we've outlined will be a problem.

The US is the largest Christian nation in the world. Until this country realizes we need to set aside religious beliefs in favor of equality, there will continue to be discrimination and non equal treatment for gays. I just wish religious people could see that.

Buttercup · Feb 4, 2007

krashlocke said:
So you suggest two additional facilities for gays and lesbians? What about bisexuals? Where does the line get drawn?

The only solution that I've ever figured out for this issue is unisex bathrooms, barracks, &c. That said, I wonder if the occurances of sexual assault would be like?

In the public sector are there separate bathrooms for gays? The military is an occupation. Why should it be treated differently?

standing_alone · Feb 4, 2007

yuvgotmel said:
To standing_alone and others,

Many of you seem to be upset at the wrong people, namely myself and a couple of others, who have been in the military, that have had the courage to speak about the facts of group dynamics. But that does not make us the "bad guy."

We are merely the messengers here....describing what we have witnessed firsthand.

You can continue to tell us directly or allude to us being "insecure" but that does not make us so. And, more importantly, it won't change the fact of what we (that have been in the military) have been telling you either.

What I stated was not directed at you or really anyone else that posted in this thread. It was stated more so in general based on the mentality of the kind of people you guys mentioned, who you made out to seem like, just by having a gay person around, they would be thrust into dibilitating insecurity.

I know how group dynamics work, even though I, myself, don't have the privilege to have served in the military. I understand everything you've said. I understand the problem that this country has with gay people serving in the military, which is why, though I don't think they should be discharged just by the fact they are gay, they should be queit about being gay - to the point of not mentioning it at all. It's just I don't buy into the whole argument that it would be bad for the military if gays openly served when so many countries allow homosexuals to openly serve. But this is the United States and not those countries, so I guess I would like to know what is different about the United States from Germany, France, Ireland, Hungary, Finland, Israel, Italy, Lithuania, the Netherlands, Peru, Norway, Austrailia, Canada, Poland, the Czech Republic, Thailand, etc.? Why can these countries handle homosexuals serving openly while the United States can't? That's what I'm not getting. Does it really just come down to, many people in the military come from poor and religious backgrounds?

evearael · Feb 4, 2007

lizskid said:
Are you aware that more gays and lesbians have been discharged from the service during "don't ask, don't tell" than before it was in place? Yeah, THAT'S working.

The problem does not lie primarily with Don't Ask, Don't Tell. The heart of the issue is with the UCMJ where you can be discharged for homosexual acts. As it stands now, the Don't Ask policy is shielding the sexual minorities from being asked questions that could lead to discharge under the UCMJ. The UCMJ MUST be adjusted before anything is done with the Don't Ask policy.

Moni_Gail · Feb 4, 2007

yuvgotmel said:
To standing_alone and others,

Many of you seem to be upset at the wrong people, namely myself and a couple of others, who have been in the military, that have had the courage to speak about the facts of group dynamics. But that does not make us the "bad guy."

We are merely the messengers here....describing what we have witnessed firsthand.

You can continue to tell us directly or allude to us being "insecure" but that does not make us so. And, more importantly, it won't change the fact of what we (that have been in the military) have been telling you either.

My post was to remind you that surprisingly others on this board have also witnessed the military first hand. I also don't see your experience as a catch-all example we should all follow. As earlier stated our household is a military household, just as both of our families happen to be veterans. Now, that being the case, I am attempting to give the other side of your 'argument'. If you have more to add outside of reiterating the same sentiments then I'd be happy to listen.

krashlocke · Feb 4, 2007

Maize said:
I understand that you're saying, to me this whole, "don't ask, don't tell" policy is just the military saying, "we don't know how to protect you from our own people, so don't tell anyone and we're just going to ignore you, but if anyone finds outs, you're outta here!"

If someone is willing to kill and die for their country, why can't they do it while being honest about themselves?

That's a good question and I 100% agree with you. BUT, I will not support such a change to the UCMJ without a system to deal with it. As I said, the devil's in the details.

I personally think that the poll's results are questionable given how many are still voting actively anti-gay politicians into office. The poll was conducted by Harris Interactive, an online pollster. I point this out because I think that it's generally suggested that many active internet users tend to be liberal.

krashlocke · Feb 4, 2007

lizskid said:
Are you aware that more gays and lesbians have been discharged from the service during "don't ask, don't tell" than before it was in place? Yeah, THAT'S working.

Are you sure that that isn't because a greater volume of homosexuals are joining BECAUSE of Don't Ask, Don't Tell effectively allowing them to?

Green Gaia · Feb 4, 2007

krashlocke said:
Are you sure that that isn't because a greater volume of homosexuals are joining BECAUSE of Don't Ask, Don't Tell effectively allowing them to?

Why are they being kicked out at all? That's what I don't understand. Being gay is not a crime.

krashlocke · Feb 4, 2007

Buttercup said:
They would have to deal with it the same way you do in any job....keep your thoughts to yourself about your religious beliefs.

Can the same logic apply to sexuality? Some would argue that we don't chose our faith any more than our sexuality.

It's interesting to point out in all of this that the UCMJ isn't explicitly written out against homosexuals...

Article 125: "It is unnatural carnal copulation for a person to take into that persons mouth or anus the sexual organ of another person or of an animal; or to place that persons sexual organ in the mouth or anus of another person or of an animal; or to have carnal copulation in any opening of the body, except the sexual parts, with another person; or to have carnal copulation with an animal."

Also, it's important to note that it is not against the UCMJ to be a homosexual. Only the acts themselves are against the UCMJ; along with acts carried out in a great deal of heterosexual relationships. I'd say it needs revamping regardless.

lizskid · Feb 4, 2007

krashlocke said:
Are you sure that that isn't because a greater volume of homosexuals are joining BECAUSE of Don't Ask, Don't Tell effectively allowing them to?

Well, we can pretend "don't ask, don't tell" is working and that it means there are more gays, but how would you know, since "don't ask, don't tell" is working so well.
The military's own reports do not support that assumption. But, then, again, I apparently cannot comprehend the military, so I could be wrong.

lizskid · Feb 4, 2007

krashlocke said:
Also, it's important to note that it is not against the UCMJ to be a homosexual. Only the acts themselves are against the UCMJ; along with acts carried out in a great deal of heterosexual relationships. I'd say it needs revamping regardless.

Yes, and people are being discharged without proof of those acts, or when those acts were performed off base, off duty and out of uniform.

krashlocke · Feb 4, 2007

Maize said:
Why are they being kicked out at all? That's what I don't understand. Being gay is not a crime.

You're right, it's not a crime. Which is why they don't do time at Ft. Levinworth after they are discharged.

Again, I seek answers, solutions... we all know the problem. What do you suggest for the barracks and training issues that have been brought up?

Green Gaia · Feb 4, 2007

krashlocke said:
You're right, it's not a crime. Which is why they don't do time at Ft. Levinworth after they are discharged.

Again, I seek answers, solutions... we all know the problem. What do you suggest for the barracks and training issues that have been brought up?

Treat them the same as you do the straight soldiers.

krashlocke · Feb 4, 2007

lizskid said:
Well, we can pretend "don't ask, don't tell" is working and that it means there are more gays, but how would you know, since "don't ask, don't tell" is working so well.

Good point well taken.

lizskid said:
But, then, again, I apparently cannot comprehend the military, so I could be wrong.

Honestly, though - can anybody?

lizskid said:
Yes, and people are being discharged without proof of those acts, or when those acts were performed off base, off duty and out of uniform.

Firstly, to my knowledge, there has to be exidence - if you could site a source, I'm welcome to correction. Secondly, technically, you're always on duty, regardless of where you are or how you're dressed. Most branches have some sort of civilian-clothes dress code for example.

Buttercup · Feb 4, 2007

krashlocke said:
Can the same logic apply to sexuality? Some would argue that we don't chose our faith any more than our sexuality.

My point krash is that any etiquette or protocol regarding social behavior that is expected and demanded in the public sector would simply be applied to the military sector. The same behavioral expectations a cashier faces at Wal-Mart would be the same expectations a military serviceperson would be expected to adhere to.

yuvgotmel · Feb 4, 2007

I was in the Navy when the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" became the official stance of the military on homosexuality. In fact, I was in the Navy when Bush Sr. was in office; and I remember when Clinton became president, there was much resentment among the military, including officers--all the way up the chain-of-command.

Here's another story:
In every headquarters building, pictures of the chain-of-command, starting with the President of the United States are featured prominently on the walls, usually near the entrance (lobby area, Quarter Deck, etc.). When Clinton took office in January of 1993, the picture of the president was supposed to be switched immediately. However, at my command, along with many other locations around the Norfolk, Virginia area, the picture of Bush Sr. remained for months. At my command, the picture of Bush Sr. remained on the wall, listed as the president, for about a year. The ONLY reason that it ever got changed was because inspectors from Washington, D.C. were scheduled to visit our base (as part of the base closures). No one wanted our base to be closed down, so the picture was finally changed, right before the inspectors came.

Before that time, everyone joked about the president. Personnel continued to call Bush, Sr. the president; and the personnel would on-purposely call Clinton simply "Clinton" or "Bill," refusing to give him the title as president.

When the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy was put into place, it became a joke and even an insult. It was not well-liked or well-accepted.

This is a case of a slow process of psychological evolution.

Policies can be made, but that does not mean that people will change the way they think or react, etc.

Hacker · Feb 4, 2007

Could I please ask a question, why does it matter whether or not somebody reveals their sexual orientation? Who cares...it's irrelevent, why would anyone need to be informed? It's not like their out looking for a date, their primary purpose is for the defense of our country.

krashlocke · Feb 4, 2007

Maize said:
Treat them the same as you do the straight soldiers.

Can the arguement then be made that we should integrate males and females as well? Soldier, Marine, Sailor, or Airman is a Soldier, Marine, Sailor, or Airman afterall.

Buttercup · Feb 4, 2007

yuvgotmel said:
This is a case of a slow process of psychological evolution.
Policies can be made, but that does not mean that people will change the way they think or react, etc.

Agreed. There's still a long road ahead. If the Christian population could grasp what discriminatory behavior this is....change would happen sooner.

Poll: Gays should be allowed to serve openly in the Military

Which of the following statements best describes your views on this issue?

Gays and lesbians should be allowed to serve openly in the military

Gays and lesbians should be allowed to serve only if they keep their sexual orientation a secret

Gays and lesbians should not be allowed to serve in the military at all

Not sure

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