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Poll: Gays should be allowed to serve openly in the Military

Which of the following statements best describes your views on this issue?

  • Gays and lesbians should not be allowed to serve in the military at all

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    48

yuvgotmel

Well-Known Member
Did you read the poll that prompted this thread? It's linked to in the OP. The public is ready for this and see this thread where I've provided an article and poll that says 73 percent of military members aren't bothered by lesbians and gays.

When pressed into the cramped living conditions of various parts of the military living/working environments, it is more evident how grossly erred that poll is. It is most likely that those stats were taken from civilians or other persons, who in normal comfortable situations, could easily sit back, relax in their cozy homes/offices without having the pressure of daily confrontation (of homosexuality).

I cannot be plainer when I say that my sympathies do extend to homosexuals. However, when persons are thrown into close and stressful living conditions, often psychologically-sound attitudes/behaviors are substituted with erratic tendencies, playing on psychological and emotional fears and other characteristics of a competitive nature.

The intimacy and close living conditions of the military are often not comprehended (by even the service members) until the ship is out to sea for a few weeks, or the troops have been in the field for a few weeks. That is often the time when life in the military takes a turn for the worse.
 

Green Gaia

Veteran Member
Should heterosexuals have to keep their sexual orientation a secret and live in fear of losing their job if anyone finds out they are married?
 

Buttercup

Veteran Member
Draka said:
Yes, and as some say, "ignorance is bliss". Of course there are gays in the military. There always have been. And most people know that gay people don't "go after" straight. That's not that point though. Ask yourself...if you were a lesbian, openly or not, would you be comfortable living in extremely close quarters with a large group of men? Turn things around.
I'm not getting the lesbian/men analogy, sorry. Can you explain to this dense chimpy a bit further? :confused:

I guess for me personally it boils down to respect. I find it highly disrepectful. You have a homosexual who is willing to fight for your country and defend you if need be but because he/she is gay you don't want them?
 

Draka

Wonder Woman
Maize said:
So not knowing they are homosexuals and sharing with them anyway, is OK? What about the person's actions, gay or straight? Or are all homosexuals just assumed to jump on anyone who is naked? I said I was uncomfortable showering with others because I look awful, not because I think anyone is looking at me sexually, male or female.

I don't understand why gays and lesbians are forced to hide and lie about their families in order to serve in the military, while heterosexuals freely talk about theirs. Hell, we see them on the news every night hugging and kissing their families either coming home or leaving again. But if a lesbian officier slips up and mentions her girlfriend and child waiting for her back home, she's immediately dishonorably discharged and loses her job? How is that fair?

It's not fair. It's life as we know it now and our society has a lot of growth to experience before things are fair.

And no one has said anything about assuming that homosexuals "jump on" anyone. We're talking about emotions, feelings, group dynamics, perceptions, hormones, stress, and everything else that comes into play when people are dealing with other people. Hell, I don't think that people should even mention what relgion they are in close quarter situations. Hot topics should be kept quiet in certain situations is what I think. Until the human race can rid itself of bigotry through education and understanding there will always be tension in these areas.

A person is smart...people are stupid. I am completely okay with other people being different than me and I am able to work with anyone. People as a society are not yet. It takes a lot of educated persons to establish smart people...and unfortunately that is not our society as of yet.
 

Green Gaia

Veteran Member
yuvgotmel said:
However, when persons are thrown into close and stressful living conditions, often psychologically-sound attitudes/behaviors are substituted with erratic tendencies, playing on psychological and emotional fears and other characteristics of a competitive nature.

Perhaps it's those people with the erratic behavior that should be kept out of the military, not men and women who only want to serve their country without lying to everyone around them to do it.
 

Green Gaia

Veteran Member
Draka said:
A person is smart...people are stupid. I am completely okay with other people being different than me and I am able to work with anyone. People as a society are not yet. It takes a lot of educated persons to establish smart people...and unfortunately that is not our society as of yet.
And we never will be if we keep burying our heads in the sand and ignoring the issue by demanding people lie to make others feel more comfortable.
 

Hacker

Well-Known Member
I voted that they should keep it a secret, it saves that person a lot of aggravation. If people weren't so darn touchy about this issue,(which I'M not personally) then I would have voted yes.
 

yuvgotmel

Well-Known Member
Maize, I do understand your concerns. However, when put in extreme emotionally and mentally-altering situations, service members are often one step away from insanity. This is something of a serious nature.

Here is another example, along the same lines as what I have been trying to convey, but it does not include homosexuality as a factor. My best friend is currently in the Navy serving on a submarine. He passed all his psychological exams, as well as physical fitness requirements. He was even enjoying life on the submarine, until his first deployment. About two weeks into the deployment, having been submerged the entire time, he began to have nightmares and night terrors. His bunkmates said that he was screaming in his sleep. Then, while working one day, he found himself lying on the floor screaming and crying, totally delirious. He began to show such signs of dementia that it was thought he might have to be taken off of the submarine permanently.

He is an example of how extreme conditions can alter a person’s normal reasoning ability and usual behavior. In the same manner, in stressful and cramped living/working conditions, open homosexuality of a few, among a larger group, can bring out the worst fears, which often manifests in physical fights and possibly total group-breakdown.
 

lizskid

BANNED
It is exactly that it is military that it is controllable. If the higher ups would give orders and have attitudes that accepted, not condone, not encourage, but just accepted that part of some peoples' lives is that they are gay, the harassment would die down. Enforce rules. Enforce codes of conduct. Allow every American the opportunity to serve his or her country.

The fact that you with military experience talk about the hatred, fear and harassment just underscores to me that that environment is allowed, or perhaps fostered in our military today. Unbelieveable. But true.
 

Draka

Wonder Woman
Buttercup said:
I'm not getting the lesbian/men analogy, sorry. Can you explain to this dense chimpy a bit further? :confused:

I guess for me personally it boils down to respect. I find it highly disrepectful. You have a homosexual who is willing to fight for your country and defend you if need be but because he/she is gay you don't want them?

Just because you aren't attracted to them and wouldn't pursue them in any way, doesn't mean that even if they know you are not attracted to them that some wouldn't be attracted to you...therefore causing sexual tension. Even if they don't act on it you can sense it. It makes a person uncomfortable and distracts them from what they are suppose to be doing. Put that into very tight quarters, stress, and high emotions and it can cause problems. Why do you think that some places still don't allow women...like subs? Just an example there.

I never said I don't want homosexuals in the military. I have no problem with homosexuals in the military. I served with some that were quite obvious and some that weren't and it didn't bother me in the slightest. But I can tell you this much...the ones that were obviously homosexual were on the receiving end of a lot of harassment and crap. Not all the time and not by every straight guy either. All it takes is a few people to really ruin your time and make your life hell.

And let me make one more thing very clear. Not every homosexual in the military gets booted out because someone found out. It all depends on who you are dealing with. Some people are like myself and since they have no problem with gays then they don't say much about it or pursue the issue...even if technically they should. But you never know about all people and some are more stricter or homophobic than others. Since you can't tell by looking, then it's just best to keep quiet unless you really know where you stand with someone.
 

Buttercup

Veteran Member
Draka said:
Just because you aren't attracted to them and wouldn't pursue them in any way, doesn't mean that even if they know you are not attracted to them that some wouldn't be attracted to you...therefore causing sexual tension. Even if they don't act on it you can sense it. It makes a person uncomfortable and distracts them from what they are suppose to be doing. Put that into very tight quarters, stress, and high emotions and it can cause problems. Why do you think that some places still don't allow women...like subs? Just an example there.
I honestly understand the scenarios you are pointing out and I do see the validity of your points. But....if homosexuality is ALLOWED in the military, these kinds of episodes regarding stress/homosexuality won't happen. And if they did, you would be punished.
 

Draka

Wonder Woman
lizskid said:
It is exactly that it is military that it is controllable. If the higher ups would give orders and have attitudes that accepted, not condone, not encourage, but just accepted that part of some peoples' lives is that they are gay, the harassment would die down. Enforce rules. Enforce codes of conduct. Allow every American the opportunity to serve his or her country.

The fact that you with military experience talk about the hatred, fear and harassment just underscores to me that that environment is allowed, or perhaps fostered in our military today. Unbelieveable. But true.

It is not allowed or fostered...it is life...it is stress and everything that goes with it. You can never tell how one person is going to react in certain given situations. The military is not made up of psychics. I could tell my subordinates to leave someone alone and not harass them, but it doesn't mean that everything is going to be peachy-keen with everyone after that. Tensions build, people get uncomfortable and distracted, things slip out, things happen when my back is turned. People that take things into their own hands are also booted out of the service. It's not like a homosexual gets harassed and we just say "oh, too bad, get out" and the perpetrator is left alone. There are consequences for crying out loud. But I guess it just is easier to believe that there aren't.

We can't predict how every person is going to respond in different situations. That is why there's "Don't ask, don't tell", to eliminate some of the worry about what intolerant people may do. It's for everyone's safety. You can' say ato throw out the intolerant ones...well why doesn't someone come up with a way to weed them out? Until that can be done, this is what we have.
 

Green Gaia

Veteran Member
It is disrepestful for the US Government to say to gays and lesbians that in order to serve their country they must lie and deceive others to do it.
 

Draka

Wonder Woman
Buttercup said:
I honestly understand the scenarios you are pointing out and I do see the validity of your points. But....if homosexuality is ALLOWED in the military, these kinds of episodes regarding stress/homosexuality won't happen. And if they did, you would be punished.

How?????? You can predict how other people respond to differences? How people respond in stressful situations? If so...you are one of a kind.

People are punished. It's the military for crying out loud.
 

Buttercup

Veteran Member
Draka said:
How?????? You can predict how other people respond to differences? How people respond in stressful situations? If so...you are one of a kind.

People are punished. It's the military for crying out loud.
What about racial differences? What about men and women and sexual tensions? The military does not allow discrimination based on racial differnces...you can be punished. I don't see homosexuality as anything different do you? These are adults. If serving in the military next to someone who is gay is going to be that stressful for someone then they shouldn't be in the military.
 

Green Gaia

Veteran Member
yuvgotmel said:
Maize, I do understand your concerns. However, when put in extreme emotionally and mentally-altering situations, service members are often one step away from insanity. This is something of a serious nature.

Here is another example, along the same lines as what I have been trying to convey, but it does not include homosexuality as a factor. My best friend is currently in the Navy serving on a submarine. He passed all his psychological exams, as well as physical fitness requirements. He was even enjoying life on the submarine, until his first deployment. About two weeks into the deployment, having been submerged the entire time, he began to have nightmares and night terrors. His bunkmates said that he was screaming in his sleep. Then, while working one day, he found himself lying on the floor screaming and crying, totally delirious. He began to show such signs of dementia that it was thought he might have to be taken off of the submarine permanently.

He is an example of how extreme conditions can alter a person’s normal reasoning ability and usual behavior. In the same manner, in stressful and cramped living/working conditions, open homosexuality of a few, among a larger group, can bring out the worst fears, which often manifests in physical fights and possibly total group-breakdown.

Sounds like a problem with what the military puts its soldiers through, not one person being homosexual causing everyone else to so nuts.
 

krashlocke

Member
I think it's more a problem of logistics. The current "don't ask, don't tell" policy has been very effective at allowing homosexuals serve without repercussion - and logistical solutions. The devil is in the details. How do you house homosexuals? Will you place gay men in the female barracks and lesbians in the male barracks? Can that be abused? How do you deal with it in a deployed environment where resources are already stretched?

As it stands, the Don't Ask Don't Tell Policy is very misunderstood. Before the policy was instituted, you could be asked and would be expected to disclose the truth under oath. It' has actually been effective at allowing more gays to serve without repercussions.

Most military personell I've worked with are extremely tolerant of other faiths and orientations - that doesn't mean we can afford to further stretch our living arrangements.

Also: do think that recruitment would be assisted more by openly inviting homosexuals, thus alienating homo-phobics, or vica-versa?

Note: I am not anti-homosexual, but I think it's important to look at every angle. Another case of my heart saying yes, and my mind trying to think it through.
 

Draka

Wonder Woman
Buttercup said:
What about racial differences? What about men and women and sexual tensions? The military does not allow discrimination based on racial differnces...you can be punished. I don't see homosexuality as anything different do you? These are adults. If serving in the military next to someone who is gay is going to be that stressful for someone then they shouldn't be in the military.

Those things you mentioned are obvious differences. Can't do much to change that now can we. Can't exactly hide the fact that someone is a different race or gender huh? And that's not really the point now is it? Truth is that more people are fine with someone being of a different race than with someone being homosexual. People fear what they don't understand and a lot of people just don't "get" homosexuality. And I repeat, no one knows how people are goind to react to different situations. Not even the people in question a lot of the time.

And krashlocke has made excellent points about "don't ask don't tell" and the purpose of it. More gays are in the military because of it. It is there to help overcome this problem. As I said before, not everyone open gay is booted out...it depends on who they are dealing with.

I really hate this topic. It doesn't seem to matter how those of us who have been in the military and speak from first hand experience and knowledge try to put this as delicately as we can, we are taken as being anti-gay/anti-gay in the military. It's simply not true. We are just trying to convey what we have seen and what works. Is it fair or right? No, but it's the best we have now and it's working.
 
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