Fighting with God

idea · Aug 28, 2021

Rival said:
I don't feel abandoned per se, He's always been good to me, just given too much freedom.

He hasn't always been good to me, and really, that's not what broke the deal. It's what he allowed his "priests" to do to my kids.

It's over now. God and his servants are evil. I should have seen it sooner, should have understood more when reading newspaper horror stories, but it's never real, no one cares until it's your own kids.

God’s an *******, worse really, or it's just the laws of nature out there.

At least nature isn't purposefully evil.

idea · Aug 28, 2021

Deeje said:
Sorry, that doesn't make him go away.....be careful also in what you wish for....reality is waiting for all of us, regardless of what we believe....

Actually it did - it is possible to get rid of illusions in your mind. Thank God haha

We Never Know · Aug 28, 2021

idea said:
He hasn't always been good to me, and really, that's not what broke the deal. It's what he allowed his "priests" to do to my kids.

It's over now. God and his servants are evil. I should have seen it sooner, should have understood more when reading newspaper horror stories, but it's never real, no one cares until it's your own kids.

God’s an *******, worse really, or it's just the laws of nature out there.

At least nature isn't purposefully evil.

If it had been a family member instead of preists, would you still blame a god?

Deeje · Aug 29, 2021

idea said:
He hasn't always been good to me, and really, that's not what broke the deal. It's what he allowed his "priests" to do to my kids.

It's over now. God and his servants are evil. I should have seen it sooner, should have understood more when reading newspaper horror stories, but it's never real, no one cares until it's your own kids.

God’s an *******, worse really, or it's just the laws of nature out there.

At least nature isn't purposefully evil.

Oh, now I see......you blame God for what his "priests" did to your kids? I am so sorry that happened to you and your children....
But I can tell you right now, God had nothing to do with what those "priests" did to your kids.....I believe that you are putting the blame where it does not belong. Those priests were disobeying God....which means that they were not his servants.....so how is it his fault? Blame the church for allowing it to keep happening. They knew all along what these offenders were doing, and just moved them on to new parishes to abuse more kids.

Your anger is well founded, but I believe that you are blaming the wrong party. That is what is sad to me. You threw the baby out with the filthy bath water. I assure you that those priests did not get away with anything.....God knows what they did and will hold them to account....but what about you?

idea · Aug 29, 2021

We Never Know said:
If it had been a family member instead of preists, would you still blame a god?

He was a family member, and a priest. His family and church protected him and protected themselves above children. They still think it's unfair he's in jail. His wife was abused by her father who was a priest, so she learned on all fronts to protect male heirarchy above children. His mother was also abused. When you realize how prevalent abuse is in the church by church leaders, and how well abusers are protected by the church, it is a sick and twisted pile of rats.

I now realize more of the horrors in far away places too, what a horror this world is. There is no loving God, there is no love - only grooming, and lies, and selfish hypocritical organizations who only care about themselves.

I know, my experiences, and my beliefs are not welcome here. Only supportive happy beliefs, and happy experiences are allowed. No criticism, love your enemy, sustain pedophiles in their church leadership positions and put it all in God's hands, don't put anyone in jail, don't complain, it is not the woman's place to argue with men, so smile and look pretty and if you just pray and have faith it all goes away? This is the only sentiment allowed to be shared? No complaints, no criticism of church groups or their leaders?

He is locked away now. The first in generations, and it was not faith and prayer that took care of the issue.

Brian2 · Aug 29, 2021

Rival said:
I'm mostly in a huge fight with God right now and everyone knows it.

Sounds like a good thing. I hope you both win.

idea · Aug 29, 2021

Deeje said:
Oh, now I see......you blame God for what his "priests" did to your kids? I am so sorry that happened to you and your children....
But I can tell you right now, God had nothing to do with what those "priests" did to your kids.....I believe that you are putting the blame where it does not belong. Those priests were disobeying God....which means that they were not his servants.....so how is it his fault? Blame the church for allowing it to keep happening. They knew all along what these offenders were doing, and just moved them on to new parishes to abuse more kids.

Your anger is well founded, but I believe that you are blaming the wrong party. That is what is sad to me. You threw the baby out with the filthy bath water. I assure you that those priests did not get away with anything.....God knows what they did and will hold them to account....but what about you?

At first I blamed God because that was a belief I was raised with. I had to leave that belief behind to heal. I had to separate myself and my children from all those who follow that monster to heal.

I have actually forgiven the mentally-ill raised-that-way confused pedophiles. (Forgive does not mean I believe he should be free, he needs to stay in jail) nothing more than an animal controlled by nature. Nothing more.

If someone is all-knowing, all-power, and does nothing? Like the other priests, like the church who protects abuse and allows it to continue for years and years, like the congregation who smile and pretend they are saints, like God.

There is no actual love except the love of a mother for her children. The rest is grooming manipulative bull ****.

Treasure Hunter · Aug 29, 2021

idea said:
I blame the laws of nature now because God does not exist. God is dead, a figment of human imagination, a construct of those who like to sit and talk instead of work and act. At first I blamed God because that was a belief I was raised with. I had to leave that belief behind to heal. I had to separate myself and my children from all those who follow that monster to heal.

I have actually forgiven the mentally-ill raised-that-way confused pedophiles. (Forgive does not mean I believe he should be free, he needs to stay in jail) nothing more than an animal controlled by nature. Nothing more.

If someone is all-knowing, all-power, and does nothing? Like the other priests, like the church who protects abuse and allows it to continue for years and years, like the congregation who smile and pretend they are saints, like God.

There is no actual love except the love of a mother for her children. The rest is grooming manipulative bull ****.

I can tell that you have claimed much more agency and sovereignty over your life. I believe that if you can go back in the past as the person you are now, then the chances of you preventing the abuse would be much higher. I mean that as a compliment and hope you receive it that way.

nPeace · Aug 29, 2021

idea said:
I blame the laws of nature now because God does not exist. God is dead, a figment of human imagination, a construct of those who like to sit and talk instead of work and act. At first I blamed God because that was a belief I was raised with. I had to leave that belief behind to heal. I had to separate myself and my children from all those who follow that monster to heal.

I have actually forgiven the mentally-ill raised-that-way confused pedophiles. (Forgive does not mean I believe he should be free, he needs to stay in jail) nothing more than an animal controlled by nature. Nothing more.

If someone is all-knowing, all-power, and does nothing? Like the other priests, like the church who protects abuse and allows it to continue for years and years, like the congregation who smile and pretend they are saints, like God.

There is no actual love except the love of a mother for her children. The rest is grooming manipulative bull ****.

Can we talk about this?
You know of course that to say "God does not exist", is not much different to a belief ~~I was raised with~~ you have adopted, because it's the same you describe others as having - "figment of human imagination".

You realize too, I hope, that to say that "If someone is all-knowing, all-power, and does nothing" is also a belief and the figment of one's imagination, because it's the same as saying, "Well I believe there is design, but I don't believe there is a designer. Just as I believe nothing is being done about suffering, becase I don't believe anything is being done."

It's just a belief, and a figment of the imagination, but it's not truth... but there is truth, isn't there? So what is it? Can it be found? Where? How?
Or don't you believe there is truth?
Everything isn't an illusion, is it?

idea · Aug 29, 2021

nPeace said:
Can we talk about this?
You know of course that to say "God does not exist", is not much different to a belief ~~I was raised with~~ you have adopted, because it's the same you describe others as having - "figment of human imagination".

You realize too, I hope, that to say that "If someone is all-knowing, all-power, and does nothing" is also a belief and the figment of one's imagination, because it's the same as saying, "Well I believe there is design, but I don't believe there is a designer. Just as I believe nothing is being done about suffering, becase I don't believe anything is being done."

It's just a belief, and a figment of the imagination, but it's not truth... but there is truth, isn't there? So what is it? Can it be found? Where? How?
Or don't you believe there is truth?
Everything isn't an illusion, is it?

Do you currently believe you personally have a complete and correct understanding of life, the universe and everything?

Please read description of stages 1 and 2, dualism, does this describe your personal beliefs?

Overview of Perry Scheme | The Perry Network

"In the position 1 perspective, there is a completely unquestioned view of truth as Absolute Truth in stark black and white terms. The identification with the Authority figure–parent, teacher, Church–is absolute and unquestioned, with no tolerance for alternative points of view. In position 2, different perspectives and beliefs are now acknowledged but are simply wrong. Thinking in this position is characterized by dichotomies and dualisms, i.e., We-Right-Good vs. They-Wrong-Bad or some variation. The world thus consists essentially of two boxes–rights and wrongs–and there is generally little trouble in distinguishing one from the other."

You would make an interesting test subject if the above describes your current world view?

Here is a question - what is the "true" temperature of the room you are in? Answer, there is no true exact temperature, there is a range of temperatures which change with time and position.... just as the laws of classical mechanics only approximate behaviors over limited lengths and times. No all-powerful laws, no exact measurements, a rich diverse amazing and wonderful eternal universe. No beginning, no creation, no end, unbounded, ever evolving, changing, forming, churning - beautiful and terrible- eternal wild and untamed.

Honesty and humility entail changing beliefs when new information is gained. Stubborn? The universe educates us all in the end. A true adventure, an authentic mystery, infinite possibilities. Escape the cave to see. The God-delution, church, it is a cave. I've escaped but cannot explain that to those still in the maze. Blessings on your journey, so fun to see the different stages and seasons of understanding.

God is a monster, those beliefs are chains.

Hockeycowboy · Aug 29, 2021

@idea, first off, I’m really sorry about what happened to your children! Many facets of this world are sick!

idea said:
It's what he allowed his "priests" to do to my kids.

Why are they his priests? Because they said so?
Jesus said there’d be “many” imposters: Matthew 7:22-23

Are you sure it was the awful things that happened to your kids that made you question God’s existence? Because injustice & cruelty have been occurring for 1000’s of years… massacres, genocides, & 6,000,000 Jews (& other millions) just relatively recently. What about those?

Of course, when you & your family are affected…as you said:

idea said:
it's never real, no one cares until it's your own kids.

…it brings life’s injustices into sharper focus, doesn’t it? About just how bad reality is, doesn’t it?

I’ve been through a lot of pain, myself! But the painful incidents came after I learned the reasons why God allows such things to happen…. Jehovah outlined it for us, in Genesis 3, where His rulership was challenged, and the issue needed time for it to be properly & completely resolved.

idea said:
God’s an *******, worse really,

No, but some people are! Thank goodness as humans we have the means, designed in us, to render judgement & administer justice! (While Jehovah God stays out of humans affairs, to allow the right-to-rule issue get settled, He expects us to use our reasoning to judge inappropriate behaviors, but also to extend forgiveness & mercy if the situation allows. But many times, human rule falls short, and adds to the growing evidence that we need direction from a Higher Source.

idea said:
No complaints, no criticism of church groups or their leaders?

Shoot yeah, complain about them all you want, I do.
But know that people acting wickedly, is not what God wants!

idea said:
I know, my experiences, and my beliefs are not welcome here.

I feel the same way about mine here, being one of Jehovah’s Witnesses.

idea said:
In position 2, different perspectives and beliefs are now acknowledged but are simply wrong. Thinking in this position is characterized by dichotomies and dualisms, i.e., We-Right-Good vs. They-Wrong-Bad or some variation. The world thus consists essentially of two boxes–rights and wrongs–and there is generally little trouble in distinguishing one from the other."

In discussing this…don’t we all (you included) do the same?

What I mean, is….
Do you just take anyone home to meet your family, be your friend? Or into your confidence?

We all discriminate, and judge who is good for us, and who is bad for us. But we all love honesty, and goodness! Those are the qualities we want in our friends. And in having belief-sets that we agree with.

Take care, and I wish you & yours the best, my cousin.

nPeace · Aug 30, 2021

idea said:
Do you currently believe you personally have a complete and correct understanding of life, the universe and everything?

Please read description of stages 1 and 2, dualism, does this describe your personal beliefs?

Overview of Perry Scheme | The Perry Network

"In the position 1 perspective, there is a completely unquestioned view of truth as Absolute Truth in stark black and white terms. The identification with the Authority figure–parent, teacher, Church–is absolute and unquestioned, with no tolerance for alternative points of view. In position 2, different perspectives and beliefs are now acknowledged but are simply wrong. Thinking in this position is characterized by dichotomies and dualisms, i.e., We-Right-Good vs. They-Wrong-Bad or some variation. The world thus consists essentially of two boxes–rights and wrongs–and there is generally little trouble in distinguishing one from the other."

You would make an interesting test subject if the above describes your current world view?

Here is a question - what is the "true" temperature of the room you are in? Answer, there is no true exact temperature, there is a range of temperatures which change with time and position.... just as the laws of classical mechanics only approximate behaviors over limited lengths and times. No all-powerful laws, no exact measurements, a rich diverse amazing and wonderful eternal universe. No beginning, no creation, no end, unbounded, ever evolving, changing, forming, churning - beautiful and terrible- eternal wild and untamed.

Honesty and humility entail changing beliefs when new information is gained. Stubborn? The universe educates us all in the end. A true adventure, an authentic mystery, infinite possibilities. Escape the cave to see. The God-delution, church, it is a cave. I've escaped but cannot explain that to those still in the maze. Blessings on your journey, so fun to see the different stages and seasons of understanding.

God is a monster, those beliefs are chains.

The Bible says, "The wicked one makes no investigation. All his thoughts are 'There is no God'".
What investigations have you made?
What evidence is there, if any?
The Bible says the evidence is there, but men are suppressing the truth in an unrighteous way.

Do you deny that it's possible you may be suppressing the truth?
Can you really deny the evidence?
If you could actually demonstrate that there is no evidence, and you definitely, are not suppressing the truth, I think your position would at least seem valid... but evidently, you can't demonstrate either. Can you?

Treasure Hunter · Aug 30, 2021

nPeace said:
The Bile says, "The wicked one makes no investigation. All his thoughts are 'There is no God'".
What investigations have you made?
What evidence is there, if any?
The Bible says the evidence is there, but men are suppressing the truth in an unrighteous way.

Do you deny that it's possible you may be suppressing the truth?
Can you really deny the evidence?
If you could actually demonstrate that there is no evidence, and you definitely, are not suppressing the truth, I think your position would at least seem valid... but evidently, you can't demonstrate either. Can you?

“The Bible says...”

The Bible is to be in service to humanity, not the other way around. Claim your agency, as the person who you are addressing has, and then return to the Bible with fresh eyes.

rational experiences · Aug 30, 2021

Our holy father holy mother owned a pure human innocent love for each other and baby child family.

Humans brain irradiated today do prove to express self perverted brain states about their memory and mutual relationship.

Mother taught me all her daughter's expect their life partner to be like father. As we base the ideal man upon father. We crave for him to return spiritually to us.

Seems like most of you even ignore love honour your mother and father by your comments.

Our holy memories are human and our parents proved they were holy.

nPeace · Aug 30, 2021

Treasure Hunter said:
“The Bible says...”

The Bible is to be in service to humanity, not the other way around. Claim your agency, as the person who you are addressing has, and then return to the Bible with fresh eyes.

I don't understand. Return to the Bible with fresh eyes? What do you mean?
When there is an authority, it carries more weight than anything else, especially when what is stated, is factual.

osgart · Aug 30, 2021

Estro Felino said:
Sorry for the particularly unusual title.
I was wondering why we Catholics pray to Jesus and Mary (Mary, especially) more than God.

Well...it is not that simple to explain. We think of God as that distant, cold Almighty Being who left us alone when he decided to give us free will.
That is why Evolution works like a charm for us.
It is the evidence that God has never cared and never will. Nature evolves regardless of God.
Whereas some Protestants won't accept Evolution, because they love God more than us.

And I will conclude by quoting a passage from The Thorn Birds. By C. Mc Collough.

Oh, dear God, dear God! No, not dear God! What's God ever done for me, except deprive me of Ralph? We're not too fond of each other, God and I. And do You know something, God? You don't frighten me the way You used to. How much I feared You, your punishment! All my life I've trodden the straight and narrow, from fear of You. And what's it got me? Not one scrap more than if I'd broken every rule in Your book. You're a fraud, God, a demon of fear. You treat us like children, dangling punishment. But you don't frighten me anymore. Because it isn't Ralph I ought to be hating, it's You. It's all Your fault's. Not poor Ralph's. He's just living in fear of you, the way I always have. That he could love You is something I can't understand. I don't see what there is about You to love.

I confess it is like I wrote that myself. The author is portraying a Catholic's thoughts, after all.
The thoughts of a woman who cannot have the man she loves because he dedicated his life to God.

I've considered junkyard gods that work naturally, are bound by nature, but have power and vast intellect. I see no Supreme force in the savage plight of humanity. Therefore I have little to fight since we are all fortunate to exist and are made with much inadequacy.

No design, just experimental creativity and artistic renderings of savage junkyard gods.

Gods are such a stretch of the imagination. Perhaps such gods are part of the eternal foundational reality; our spiritual junkyard.

That's as far as I've gotten with it. I am grateful for the savage miracle existence humanity has with full realization that life is not tailor made for existence.

If I find one Supreme thing in this universe I would be so shocked that I would either repent or go fight God for being so uncaring and apathetic to the horrors and tragedies that many humans face. Without science we would be hunter/gatherers, and our primitive nature would be on full display.

Treasure Hunter · Aug 30, 2021

nPeace said:
I don't understand. Return to the Bible with fresh eyes? What do you mean?
When there is an authority, it carries more weight than anything else, especially when what is stated, is factual.

Praying to the Father in Heaven produces new eyes, but someone can’t receive new eyes if they already have eyes. Right?

Hockeycowboy · Aug 30, 2021

Treasure Hunter said:
Praying to the Father in Heaven…

Who is that? Does He have a name?
“Our Father which art in Heaven, hallowed be Thy name”

My question: what is that name?
Is it the one found at Psalms 83:18?
(It sorta’ jumps out at you, doesn’t it? With those Capital letters.)

pearl · Sep 1, 2021

Hockeycowboy said:
Who is that? Does He have a name?
“Our Father which art in Heaven, hallowed be Thy name”

Would not the 'name' refer to that given to Moses? In the petition is it God who sanctifies his own name, or man?

metis · Sep 1, 2021

Hockeycowboy said:
My question: what is that name?
Is it the one found at Psalms 83:18?

"Jehovah" is not correct as there's no "J" sound in Hebrew and also we simply do not know which vowels were in between the consonants. Using English, letters, it's "YHWH". It is this name that was not allowed to said out-loud in Judaism except on Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement, and only at the Temple, as it's considered to be holy.

Fighting with God

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