Abolition of Alcohol

JustGeorge said:

But wouldn't abstaining from alcohol come between one who worships Dionysus?

Click to expand...

Yes indeed it what and that used to be the poison of my choices. Not sure how I survived one of those binges, I should be dead.

Regards Tony

QuestioningMind said:

Personally I don't think it should go that far. For the millions of people who can drink responsibly with no ill effects there's no reason that it should not be partaken of. Just like I don't think people should be educated to believe that peanuts should not be partaken of, just because they affect me in a negative manner.

Click to expand...

The question I would ask is, what would a person feel like, if after the fact they found out how harmful the affect really was to them?

It becomes an all of a sudden when you start looking for red cars, you are surprised as to how many red cars there actually is type of moment.

Regards Tony

Shadow Wolf said:

Except banning doesn't work. Responsible use does.

Click to expand...

It would be a circle of discussion if I answered this.

Regards Tony

SalixIncendium said:

I'm going to take one for the team, Tony.

I've decided I'm going to drink all the alcohol until it's gone. Then there will be nothing to abolish.

You're welcome.

Click to expand...

See you in the next world.

Regards Tony

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

Yes indeed it what and that used to be the poison of my choices. Not sure how I survived one of those binges, I should be dead.

Regards Tony

Click to expand...

You used to worship Dionysus?

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

So the trend in the OP so far is that it can not be abolished.

Main reason so far is that I still want to have the freedom of choice to drink, that it is a human right obligation to partake of a substance known to cause harm to a significant portion of the human race as long as I do it responsibly and those that can not should get help.

I see this is the underlying issue, it is a lack of willingness to personally adress other people's experiences, trying to stay aloof from the harm it causes, in preference of self based reasons.

This is why I offered in the OP it is a killer of humanity.

Our humanity is founded on our willingness to help all people, regardless of gender, race, religion or nationality.

So if we could make the easy decision not to partake of substances that cause harm to a significant part of the human race, why would we not make that decision apart from self based reasons?

True liberty is submission unto a code of laws based in virtue and morality.

Regards Tony

Click to expand...

So how far should this be taken? There are plenty of people in the world who suffer from peanut allergies... do you think everyone should make the decision to no longer eat peanuts? And does this only apply to substances or would it also include practices that can be harmful to some people? It could certainly be argued that for SOME people the practice of religion can be very harmful to them or to society as a whole... like those who irresponsibly use their religion as justification to fly planes into buildings or persecute women or homosexuals. Are you suggesting that EVERYONE should refrain from practicing religion, even those who can practice their religions responsibly, just because there are SOME people who can't?

JustGeorge said:

You used to worship Dionysus?

Click to expand...

My preferred choice was wine and Dionysus was the God of wine, so I must have by association.

Regards Tony

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

The question I would ask is, what would a person feel like, if after the fact they found out how harmful the affect really was to them?

It becomes an all of a sudden when you start looking for red cars, you are surprised as to how many red cars there actually is type of moment.

Regards Tony

Click to expand...

I suspect they'd feel similar to how I felt when I discovered that eating peanuts affects me negatively. I felt disappointed that I could no longer partake of them. I also felt determined to avoid them in the future because I don't like the negative after effects. I certainly didn't feel as if it was the responsibility of everyone else in society to stop ingesting peanuts on my account. My wife suffers from diabetes. When she found out she felt disappointed that she could no longer eat donuts and cookies. But at no point did she feel it was everyone else's responsibility to stop eating donuts and cookies.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

Hi CG. Why does any person change? I guess they will have to be hit hard with the consequences of what alcohol is costing our humanity.

I do not see this has anything to do with the Baha'i Administrative Order. I appreciate the Baha'i Faith has a law on this and it is my choice to follow it.

This is my strong view on Alcohol, as I am in a small community where the downfalls are a daily observation.

All I really have got from this OP is that no one really cares, as long as they still can partake of it.

Regards Tony

Click to expand...

Well, since you believe this is a law that God wants, then at some point it's going to have to be enforced. If it is enforced, what's will be the punishment? A fine? Jail time? And that's just for the drinkers. What about the people that make the stuff. Will their businesses be shut down? Then what's going to happen with bootleggers? They're going to be armed and very dangerous. Or... it's not a law that God wants, it is just a suggestion?

Most everybody I know drinks. Mostly wine and beer but at parties they'll do mixed drinks and shots. The first thing they ask when a person arrives is, "Can I get you something to drink?" And how bad are the health effects? Apparently, not bad enough. Hardly any of these people smoke cigarettes, but lots of them smoke pot. What's that all about?

But, if the Baha'i Faith is the truth, then some day, it will be in control... then what? Baha'is are going to say, "For your own good... We putting a ban on all alcoholic beverages." And would it stop there? No, the bans would have to include sex, drugs, porn, music with explicit lyrics, clothing that is too revealing, dances that are too suggestive and what else? Making laws banning things that the "moral", "religious" people like isn't that hard if they are in the majority. But, are they themselves going to follow and obey their own rules? Probably you will, but I've got a feeling some will sneak off to get a drink, or smoke a little joint, or go somewhere to get a little or maybe splurge and do it all. Then go back to being "pure" and "holy" for a month or two.

CG Didymus said:

Well, since you believe this is a law that God wants, then at some point it's going to have to be enforced. If it is enforced, what's will be the punishment? A fine? Jail time? And that's just for the drinkers. What about the people that make the stuff. Will their businesses be shut down? Then what's going to happen with bootleggers? They're going to be armed and very dangerous. Or... it's not a law that God wants, it is just a suggestion?

Click to expand...

That is only for Baha'i and that law will get more details in the future.

We have said this many times. If you are not a Baha'i the law of the Nation will be your guide.

Regards Tony

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

My preferred choice was wine and Dionysus was the God of wine, so I must have by association.

Regards Tony

Click to expand...

Interesting. I happen to like a drink or two, though I (now-a-days) pretty much never over-indulge. But a long time ago, I discovered that one of the things I liked the taste of so very much (whiskey, and other brown liquors) made me crazy. I mean they just chemically altered my brain patterns. And on that discovery, I simply stopped drinking them. When I'm out with friends today, anybody can plop a round of shots on the table, and you can be certain I will not touch one. I am in control of my choices, and will continue to happily sip (and I do only sip) my beer. Everybody who knows me now, when they order a round, feel perfectly comfortable (when I'm in the can or elsewhere) saying "except for him." And I'm glad they feel comfortable with that -- it's what I want.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

That is not what I said, not sure how I can offer it any other way, you read what I wrote with your frame of reference.

Prohibition did not work, so what will work if we see the need to reduce alcohol consumption by a vast percentage?

Regards Tony

Click to expand...

Answer, fix the societal problems which create the impulse to escape into alcohol abuse. Fund education programs. Fix income inequality. Provide livable wages. And so forth. Do you understand?

Windwalker said:

Answer, fix the societal problems which create the impulse to escape into alcohol abuse. Fund education programs. Fix income inequality. Provide livable wages. And so forth. Do you understand?

Click to expand...

That is what this OP was about.

Now what education do we provide? That is the quandary raised by this OP.

Regards Tony

DNB said:

Yes, so far most attempts have failed, and possibly increased the usage (forbitten fruit syndrome).
But, maybe there are some other methods that may prove to be more effective - has cigarette smoking decreased due to all the restrictions in the past 10 yrs??

Click to expand...

I have no statistics in reduction or increase in smoking.

Secret Chief said:

In the UK various measures have driven a big decline in cigarette use.

- Smoking in England declines by more than 1bn cigarettes per year

Click to expand...

Great to hear, thanks!

firedragon said:

I have no statistics in reduction or increase in smoking.

Click to expand...

Apparently in England it has.

- Smoking in England declines by more than 1bn cigarettes per year
Smoking in England declines by more than 1bn cigarettes per year.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

Interestingly it is written in my Faith that ..

Click to expand...

It may be interesting for you but not for all people. That has nothing to do with those who do not follow your faith.

CG Didymus said:

But, if the Baha'i Faith is the truth, then some day, it will be in control... then what? Baha'is are going to say, "For your own good... We putting a ban on all alcoholic beverages." And would it stop there? No, the bans would have to include sex, drugs, porn, music with explicit lyrics, clothing that is too revealing, dances that are too suggestive and what else?

Click to expand...

I do not find that any different from IS, Taliban laws. Not surprising because Bahaiism, after all, is a fork of Islam, like Ubuntu or Mint are forks of Debian.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

Now what education do we provide? That is the quandary raised by this OP.

Click to expand...

What kind of education would you want? A compulsory course on Kitab-i-Aqdas?

Secret Chief said:

Smoking in England declines by more than 1bn cigarettes per year

Click to expand...

I feel it is the trend in India too. Less number of young people indulge in smoking but the use of alcohol has increased in the same measure. None of the younger lot in my family smoke, where as we oldies used to strut around with cigarettes dangling from our lips.

I worship Dionysius the God of wine, so that would not work out for me.

DNB said:

Apparently in England it has.

- Smoking in England declines by more than 1bn cigarettes per year
Smoking in England declines by more than 1bn cigarettes per year.

Click to expand...

Thats good.

Aupmanyav said:

It may be interesting for you but not for all people. That has nothing to do with those who do not follow your faith

Click to expand...

It was not offerd to you, it the person who I replied to thinks it is not apppli able to what they offered, I am sure they will advise

Regards Tony