Fighting with God

Deeje said:

Whatever realm God occupies, all spirit creatures were created to live there. It is called “heaven” but no one really knows where or what “heaven actually is. Some were given glimpses in visions but found it difficult to describe in human terms. It is apparently a glorious place with glorious beings serving their very glorious God.

As God’s “firstborn” and “only begotten”, the spirit being who became Jesus Christ, was used as the agency through whom all creation came, in heaven and in the material universe. (Colossians 1:15-17)

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I would not say "agency" but never mind. I would say that this "agency" was not created and did not come into existence since the Bible says that "all things came into existence through Him". So He has always existed.

Deeje said:

There is no indication in scripture as to how much time elapsed between the creation of God’s firstborn, and the other “sons of God” who applauded material creation.

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You are right that there is no indication when the angels were created, just that they were there at the forming of the earth. A hint we have however is that the heavens and earth were created in the beginning so imo that would mean that the angels may have been created after the creation of somewhere for them to live.
Just because there is no mention directly of when the angels were created does not mean they were created before the creation of the universe or of the heaven of heavens where they live.
God of course does not need the heaven of the heavens to live in as God does not fit in it.
1Kings 8: 27But will God indeed dwell upon the earth? Even heaven, the highest heaven, cannot contain You, much less this temple I have built.

Deeje said:

Jesus taught in absolutes not maybe’s

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Amen

That is why I seek the absolute.

Jeremiah Ames said:

Amen

That is why I seek the absolute.

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You cannot believe in maybe’s.....good for you.

Estro Felino said:

New Sorry for the particularly unusual title.
I was wondering why we Catholics pray to Jesus and Mary (Mary, especially) more than God.

Well...it is not that simple to explain. We think of God as that distant, cold Almighty Being who left us alone when he decided to give us free will.
That is why Evolution works like a charm for us.
It is the evidence that God has never cared and never will. Nature evolves regardless of God.
Whereas some Protestants won't accept Evolution, because they love God more than us.

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What? I've never gotten that impression from Catholicism, nor is God presented in such a way. I pray to the Father the most and that was true when I was a devout Catholic. I mentioned that to my godmother.

I'm mostly in a huge fight with God right now and everyone knows it.

Brian2 said:

I would not say "agency" but never mind. I would say that this "agency" was not created and did not come into existence since the Bible says that "all things came into existence through Him". So He has always existed.

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“Agency” means that God gave his “firstborn” and “only begotten son” the privilege of bringing all creation into existence. But the son is not the Creator because he did not bring the raw materials into existence. That required God’s powerful Holy Spirit. As Jesus demonstrated when he was on earth, the power of God’s spirit was given to him at his baptism. There is no record that Jesus was anything but a normal mortal human up until that time. It was the reason I believe, that his siblings did not put faith in him until after his death and resurrection. He was just their older brother, growing up in a typical Jewish household.

Revelation 3:14 tells us that Jesus was “the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation.” (ESV)

As “the first born of all creation” (Colossians 1:15-16) this “only begotten son” was the first of many “sons” but God’s firstborn was “begotten”....meaning that he was the only direct creation of his Father...everything else came “through” the Son. He was God’s “master workman” alongside his Father in the whole process. (Proverbs 8:30-31) He is part of the “us” and “our” in Genesis 1:26.

You are right that there is no indication when the angels were created, just that they were there at the forming of the earth. A hint we have however is that the heavens and earth were created in the beginning so imo that would mean that the angels may have been created after the creation of somewhere for them to live.

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What if the “somewhere to live” was already in existence when God created his “firstborn”? A “firstborn” does not exist before or at the same time as his “Father”. The ‘begetter’ has to exist first.

Just because there is no mention directly of when the angels were created does not mean they were created before the creation of the universe or of the heaven of heavens where they live.

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OK let’s see what Job says...
“Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding. Who determined its measurements—surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? On what were its bases sunk, or who laid its cornerstone, when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?” (ESV)
Now go to Genesis 1:1
“In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. (ESV)
The heavens and the earth were brought into existence at the same time. The spirit realm where God, his son and his angels dwell had to be in existence first.

God of course does not need the heaven of the heavens to live in as God does not fit in it.
1Kings 8: 27But will God indeed dwell upon the earth? Even heaven, the highest heaven, cannot contain You, much less this temple I have built.

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What was Jeremiah describing in these verses according to his experience? The “highest heaven” to him would have been what he could see from his earth-bound perspective. He understood that the heavens he could see with his eyes were created by his God, which made his God much larger than, or outside of his creation.

God is “in heaven” as Jesus himself acknowledged in the Lord’s Prayer.....”Our Father who art in heaven”.....

Jesus said that his ‘Father’s house had many dwelling places’....so does the Father dwell in his own house? What does Jesus indicate by that statement? When Jesus returned to heaven, where did he go?

Hebrews 9:24...
“For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.” (ESV)

I rest my case....

Rival said:

I'm mostly in a huge fight with God right now and everyone knows it.

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I don’t envy you.....Who do you think will win?

Has God ever lost?

Who will have to make the adjustment do you think? You or him?

I think the odds are kinda stacked against anyone trying to fight God........

Jesus said that God’s will is going “to be done on earth as it is in heaven”...with us or without us....so where does that leave the “fighters”? Some choices are really tough....

All the best....

Deeje said:

I don’t envy you.....Who do you think will win?

Has God ever lost?

Who will have to make the adjustment do you think? You or him?

I think the odds are kinda stacked against anyone trying to fight God........

Jesus said that God’s will is going “to be done on earth as it is in heaven”...with us or without us....so where does that leave the “fighters”? Some choices are really tough....

All the best....

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I'm not trying to win a fight or launch an attack; I'm moody and rebellious. God allows temper tantrums.

Estro Felino said:

Sorry for the particularly unusual title.
I was wondering why we Catholics pray to Jesus and Mary (Mary, especially) more than God.

Well...it is not that simple to explain. We think of God as that distant, cold Almighty Being who left us alone when he decided to give us free will.
That is why Evolution works like a charm for us.
It is the evidence that God has never cared and never will. Nature evolves regardless of God.
Whereas some Protestants won't accept Evolution, because they love God more than us.



And I will conclude by quoting a passage from The Thorn Birds. By C. Mc Collough.

Oh, dear God, dear God! No, not dear God! What's God ever done for me, except deprive me of Ralph? We're not too fond of each other, God and I. And do You know something, God? You don't frighten me the way You used to. How much I feared You, your punishment! All my life I've trodden the straight and narrow, from fear of You. And what's it got me? Not one scrap more than if I'd broken every rule in Your book. You're a fraud, God, a demon of fear. You treat us like children, dangling punishment. But you don't frighten me anymore. Because it isn't Ralph I ought to be hating, it's You. It's all Your fault's. Not poor Ralph's. He's just living in fear of you, the way I always have. That he could love You is something I can't understand. I don't see what there is about You to love.


I confess it is like I wrote that myself. The author is portraying a Catholic's thoughts, after all.
The thoughts of a woman who cannot have the man she loves because he dedicated his life to God.

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Perhaps the real problem is the assumption that those holy books, written by mankind, really reflect God instead of reflecting the writers who wrote them. Wasn't it those books which taught you to fear God and teach you that you are flawed from birth awaiting punishment unless you blindly believe? Are these the acts of High Intelligence from any side??

Are you really fighting with God?? I think not!!

Everyone already knows God whether they know they know or not. God isn't the monster mankind portraits. Everyone will be with God between physical lives. God is at a much Higher Level than mankind. You are going to like God.

It has never ever been about Believing, Sinning, Judging, Condemning, Punishing or being Flawed.

There is really nothing to fear!! On the other hand, we each choose for ourselves what lessons we need to learn. Our free choices show God and the world what we know and what we need to learn.

In this time-based causal universe, our actions and choices will return, in time, to show us what our choices and actions really mean.

It's really very simple. Really Think!! Then Act!! WE can all make the very Best choices so that it's the Love, Goodness, and Kindness which will return to us.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

Deeje said:

I don’t envy you.....Who do you think will win?

Has God ever lost?

Who will have to make the adjustment do you think? You or him?

I think the odds are kinda stacked against anyone trying to fight God........

Jesus said that God’s will is going “to be done on earth as it is in heaven”...with us or without us....so where does that leave the “fighters”? Some choices are really tough....

All the best....

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I thought God's will was for everyone to worship God so.... for everyone who fights, God has lost.

Rival said:

I'm not trying to win a fight or launch an attack; I'm moody and rebellious. God allows temper tantrums.

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That depends on the outcome of the tantrum. He is very forgiving...but only when a rebellious child is repentant and demonstrates a desire to comply with God’s will. No forgiveness can take place without a change in attitude and a genuine desire to do the will of God instead of our own.

Read Luke ch 15 and see what Jesus taught about repentance, and in the parable of the prodigal son, see why the father ran out to meet his rebellious son who had just squandered his entire inheritance on debauched living and fair weather friends.

Rival said:

I'm not trying to win a fight or launch an attack; I'm moody and rebellious. God allows temper tantrums.

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It's not a temper tantrum, it's righteous indignation at a privileged disconnected absentee father who abandoned all his children....

idea said:

It's not a temper tantrum, it's righteous indignation at a privileged disconnected absentee father who abandoned all his children....

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I don't feel abandoned per se, He's always been good to me, just given too much freedom.

idea said:

I thought God's will was for everyone to worship God so.... for everyone who fights, God has lost.

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It is God’s desire that all would repent and be forgiven (2 Peter 3:9)....but he already knows that it’s not going happen. He offers life, but it’s conditional...it always has been.

He does not need us...we need him. If we cannot follow his commands, he has no use for us because we have demonstrated that we don’t want to comply with his rules. That is our choice, not God’s.

idea said:

It's not a temper tantrum, it's righteous indignation at a privileged disconnected absentee father who abandoned all his children....

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That is a conclusion based on what? It betrays no knowledge of the scriptures at all.....shake your fist at God all you like.....I can assure you it will not end well for rebels.

Rival said:

I'm mostly in a huge fight with God right now and everyone knows it.

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Goodness, I didn’t know it! Where have I been?!

PM me, if you wish to talk? I want all the best for you!

You should be commended for being aware of your spiritual need, and searching for it and not giving up.

Deeje said:

That is a conclusion based on what? It betrays no knowledge of the scriptures at all.....shake your fist at God all you like.....I can assure you it will not end well for rebels.

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Based on reality. Hide in your silly books all you want, there are some who deal in reality.

Deeje said:

It is God’s desire that all would repent and be forgiven (2 Peter 3:9)....but he already knows that it’s not going happen. He offers life, but it’s conditional...it always has been.

He does not need us...we need him. If we cannot follow his commands, he has no use for us because we have demonstrated that we don’t want to comply with his rules. That is our choice, not God’s.

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I do not need an abusive father. I need him to be gone. Haha poof - gone - life is now better, wish granted.

idea said:

Based on reality. Hide in your silly books all you want, there are some who deal in reality.

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Be careful of reality...it can hit you when and where you least expect it.....

We will all find out what is "silly" sooner or later.

Have a good one.....

idea said:

I do not need an abusive father. I need him to be gone. Haha poof - gone - life is now better, wish granted.

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Sorry, that doesn't make him go away.....be careful also in what you wish for....reality is waiting for all of us, regardless of what we believe....