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Christian Evolutionist debate (using scripture)

TheWingMan

Christian Evolutionist
Ok, but to what extent do you agree with the modern theory of evolution as it has progressed since Darwin's time?

I have no idea... I'm an evolutiinist. The details are subject to change as we discover more. The crux of the thread isn't how much I agree with how it has evolved or progressed, but that I'm a Christian who sees it as valid in terms of human history and my religion, which I still base largely on scripture.
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
First things first:

Without the Scriptures, what basis would Christians have to practice their faith? I see many religious people, but very few who understand the faith as written in the Scriptures.

With that said, let Iron sharpen Iron here as we hash out scripture in attempt to both defend our own position and counter those positions which oppose them - using scripture

Let the honing begin with better understanding being the end in mind. Brothers are made for adversity.

Proverbs 17:17

Let's start with this one. Is there more to this verse than just friends loving at all times and brothers being made adversaries? Or is this about sharpening and increasing each other's ability and true friendship?

"Iron sharpen iron." Lets beat our swords into plow shares.

"Brothers are made for adversity." "Love thy neighbor" "can't we all just get along" "seek the path of harmony."

Water is the softest material. Yet, over time, it erodes the toughest rock. Be like water. Flow around obstacles. Yield.

Don't confuse worship and war ship (as was done in recent times).
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
Ok, but to what extent do you agree with the modern theory of evolution as it has progressed since Darwin's time?

I might argue with a bonobo chimp about evolution. I would eloquently lay out my arguments most conclusively. Yet, with a toss or two of poop, the chimp would counter me, and eventually win. Surely I could not win over one so adamant. Is the chimp right? No. But determined.

Chimpy might have a point there....after all, his species didn't pollute the planet and render many species endangered or extinct. We humans are the geniuses that did that.

If we were put on a rocket and shot into space, and an extraterrestrial alien finds us, he might have the notion that we are smart enough to build a rocket. But, we might be like a typical tourist in a motor home, with the ability to press the gas peddle to go and press the brake to stop (and that is as far as our intelligence goes). Shall the alien view us intelligent? Should we view chimps as not?
 

TheWingMan

Christian Evolutionist
"Iron sharpen iron." Lets beat our swords into plow shares.

"Brothers are made for adversity." "Love thy neighbor" "can't we all just get along" "seek the path of harmony."


Water is the softest material. Yet, over time, it erodes the toughest rock. Be like water. Flow around obstacles. Yield.

Don't confuse worship and war ship (as was done in recent times).

I'll agree .... but I'm not prepared, nor will I ever be, to literally forsake weapons and skill in that arena. Putting our weapons down in cease fires and for peaceful relations I am on board with however. There's a biblical axiom I'll lean on here: being wise as serpents and gentle as doves seems most practical, logical, and securing.
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
First things first:

Without the Scriptures, what basis would Christians have to practice their faith? I see many religious people, but very few who understand the faith as written in the Scriptures.

With that said, let Iron sharpen Iron here as we hash out scripture in attempt to both defend our own position and counter those positions which oppose them - using scripture

Let the honing begin with better understanding being the end in mind. Brothers are made for adversity.

Proverbs 17:17

Let's start with this one. Is there more to this verse than just friends loving at all times and brothers being made adversaries? Or is this about sharpening and increasing each other's ability and true friendship?

I have often thought that the only thing that we know about God is written in the bible. So, if the bible is wrong, our knowledge of God (if he exists) is also wrong.

Yet, there is a possibility that someone feels a certain way when they think of God (a feeling that they are on the right track....an intuition). There is also a possibility that someone has psychic abilities (or knows someone with psychic abilities) who can either confirm the information in the bible, or communicate to God or his angels or to souls.

The bible most definitely supports the notion of psychic abilities (ESP). Revelation is a view of future events told by a psychic (presumed to be St. John the Divine). Even the bible itself, which was written perhaps over a hundred years after the apostles died, appears to have been written by divine insight (unless someone memorized the apostles statements, rather than having psychic messages about them). To reiterate, likely the bible was written by psychics.

Psychics are used by police, the FBI, and CIA. Dr. Jessica Utts, professor of statistics at UC Irvine, clams to have proven that ESP is real.
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
I'll agree .... but I'm not prepared, nor will I ever be, to literally forsake weapons and skill in that arena. Putting our weapons down in cease fires and for peaceful relations I am on board with however. There's a biblical axiom I'll lean on here: being wise as serpents and gentle as doves seems most practical, logical, and securing.

Israel offered land for peace. They gave land, but got no peace. They could try again, only to lose more land, until their narrow strip is too narrow to viably defend.

It is difficult to adhere to the Christian ideas of peace..."thou shalt not kill" when there are so many injustices and so much fear in the world.
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the reply and thoughts. I think scriptural interpretation is constantly playing catch-up with science. As science disproves more and more of what various religious scriptures appear to plainly state, these verses are then re-interpreted as metaphorical, allegorical, or somehow superseded by some other verse that says the opposite somewhere else. We see religions being pulled along behind the vanguard of moral progress as well, such as civil rights like freedom of speech, women's rights, gay rights, etc.

Chemistry can trace its origins to alchemy, which nonetheless gives no support to the principles of alchemy. Likewise, modern science rocketed upwards out of natural philosophy because it is a clearly superior tool for understanding reality. That was basically my point. Considering religious scriptures, interpretations, and philosophical arguments are an interesting exercise, but they can never inform or supersede empirical evidence that contradicts their speculative conclusions.

Granted, science can't fully tell you how to live a good life, or whether you'd prefer a sandwich or pasta for lunch, or if you should love your mother. Religion is good at encouraging us to be introspective and to think about our motivations, goals, and feelings. But I think it has so much immoral, outdated baggage that at this point its better to leave the religion behind and just do the introspection without any more time spent on superstitious beliefs, faith, or bad reasoning.

Oh, and no one "holds Darwin infallible." He was the first person to publish a rough scientific model. The model, which is the scientific theory of evolution, has been expanded, refined, and validated in ways he could never have imagined. Science doesn't have prophets, dogmas, or unquestionable authorities. It only has data and evidence derived using methods that can be shown to reliably correspond to reality, and the reasonable tentative conclusions drawn from such. Nothing in science is infallible; even the scientific method itself is open to improvement if evidence supports that improvement.

There is much mystery in chem-mystery. Hard science trumps religion? What in science tells us to be decent people and get along? Not covet someone's wife (as God did with Mary, thus producing Jesus)? Perhaps there are aspects of religion that could not be beaten by science?

I think that someone's karma ran over my dogma.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
First things first:

Without the Scriptures, what basis would Christians have to practice their faith?

Great question. The answer is none.
This is what Ricky Gervais' inspiration was for his argument once. Paraphrasing:

Imagine all knowledge disappears overnight. Every book, every website, everything is destroyed and erased from our memories.
All current religions would be lost in the pages of history, never to return. But science... science will return. Because all the same facts still apply and remain. The facts of gravity, the facts of physics, the facts of evolution... We'll rediscover them and come to the same conclusions. We'll also invent brand new gods along the way.
 

TheWingMan

Christian Evolutionist
Great question. The answer is none.
This is what Ricky Gervais' inspiration was for his argument once. Paraphrasing:

Imagine all knowledge disappears overnight. Every book, every website, everything is destroyed and erased from our memories.
All current religions would be lost in the pages of history, never to return. But science... science will return. Because all the same facts still apply and remain. The facts of gravity, the facts of physics, the facts of evolution... We'll rediscover them and come to the same conclusions. We'll also invent brand new gods along the way.

I'd suggest the same or similar would sprout up in different terms of expression, just like the sciences.
 

TheWingMan

Christian Evolutionist
Similar, like Thor and Jawhe are "similar".

Different in articulation. Terms of expression.

The light came on and lingered for hours, then sank into the sea. The darkness was thick, but another light came on, only lesser than the other. The darkness lasted for hours until the greater light came back on, as if it rose from the ground.


The sun came up and set again. being replaced by the light of the moon, then did the same after many hours.

These we call rotations.

Days


Life is - God is
The universe is - God is
Existence is- God is

You get the picture?
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Different in articulation. Terms of expression.

The light came on and lingered for hours, then sank into the sea. The darkness was thick, but another light came on, only lesser than the other. The darkness lasted for hours until the greater light came back on, as if it rose from the ground.


The sun came up and set again. being replaced by the light of the moon, then did the same after many hours.

These we call rotations.

Days


Life is - God is
The universe is - God is
Existence is- God is

You get the picture?
No, I don't get the picture at all.
To me, this reads like meaningless abstract attempts at poetry.

Do you have a point?
 

TheWingMan

Christian Evolutionist
No, I don't get the picture at all.
To me, this reads like meaningless abstract attempts at poetry.

Do you have a point?

Yes, the articulation and expression will change and vary and differ from how we understand it today. This includes the scientific fields also, not just religion. The religions would likewise very likely resurface using different types of expressive language ... just like the sciences. There would be little different in meaning, but the terns and how they are ARTICULATED will be.

Would you agree or disagree? State your reasons please. You either understand or you don't.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Yes, the articulation and expression will change and vary and differ from how we understand it today. This includes the scientific fields also, not just religion. The religions would likewise very likely resurface using different types of expressive language ... just like the sciences. There would be little different in meaning, but the terns and how they are ARTICULATED will be.

Would you agree or disagree? State your reasons please. You either understand or you don't.

Is this your attempt at pretending that Thor and Jawhe are just "different expressions" of the same thing?

To a point, I actually agree.
Both are expressions of human psychological weakness and how we are very prone to superstition and type 2 cognition errors.

But my guess is that you are trying to say they are "the same thing" in a very different way.
In a way that you are unable to explain or support.

I can only repeat my previous point.
The various religions we know today, would be lost in the pages of history.
The bible stories, the whole "saviour" bit, all of it. Gone. Never to resurface.

But we WILL be discovering gravity again and we WILL be able to calculate what is required to achieve escape velocity to shoot satellites into orbit around the planet. It's not a question of "if", it's a question of when.

As for the whole savior bible bit... forget about it. It would never return. Neither would Thor.
But most certainly humanity will make more sh!t up. Just like they made up the thousands of gods they currently believe in or have believed in.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
I'll agree .... but I'm not prepared, nor will I ever be, to literally forsake weapons and skill in that arena. Putting our weapons down in cease fires and for peaceful relations I am on board with however. There's a biblical axiom I'll lean on here: being wise as serpents and gentle as doves seems most practical, logical, and securing.
So why is it important to believe evolution as a Christian?
 

Balthazzar

Christian Evolutionist
Is this your attempt at pretending that Thor and Jawhe are just "different expressions" of the same thing?

To a point, I actually agree.
Both are expressions of human psychological weakness and how we are very prone to superstition and type 2 cognition errors.

But my guess is that you are trying to say they are "the same thing" in a very different way.
In a way that you are unable to explain or support.

I can only repeat my previous point.
The various religions we know today, would be lost in the pages of history.
The bible stories, the whole "saviour" bit, all of it. Gone. Never to resurface.

But we WILL be discovering gravity again and we WILL be able to calculate what is required to achieve escape velocity to shoot satellites into orbit around the planet. It's not a question of "if", it's a question of when.

As for the whole savior bible bit... forget about it. It would never return. Neither would Thor.
But most certainly humanity will make more sh!t up. Just like they made up the thousands of gods they currently believe in or have believed in.


You may be right ... at least in part. History is important - and characters like Thor and Jesus will spring up again, given the literary sciences and arts aren't banished from human creativity and effort. Thor - Great things were written about him. Great things were written about General George Washington also. The same is true for Jesus, as well as his savior persona. That too would resurface ... Given there's ever any future conflict that required a man to stand up to accept incarceration as opposed to using 2 small weapons against a government troop sent to detain the leader of known antagonists towards certain ruling leaders.

Life happens - People write and tell stories about it. Some embellish more than others, and we all know most people can't even paraphrase accurately.

By the way, I'm "the wingman" under a different screen name. I had to start a new account.
 
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