firedragon
Veteran Member
No one knows how long ago evolution was known or believed in. It is old science. Some may say it is old religion. Science is affirming it very well. More to go.
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Most Americans now accept evolution.
- Thread starter Father Heathen
- Start date
No one knows how long ago evolution was known or believed in. It is old science. Some may say it is old religion. Science is affirming it very well. More to go.
As far a known written records the first to propose a natural version in the poem 'The Nature of Things' was Lucretius a Roman philosopher in the 1st century BCE
The modern science of evolution based on 'objective verifiable evidence is only about 200 years old.
Hi, I am learning a lot from Christians in the last few days, what is science? And how does this hatred manifest itself?
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
No, when they belief they mean they see it as a matter of faith and not a matter based on overwhelming evidence.
That is just wrong.
No, it is very specifically your god. Lots of gods don't care if someone is homosexual.
Where has that ever been the case?
No where.
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
Correct. It's the evidence and logic that makes it right.
Gravity is also just a theory, so go jump off a tall building and let your faith be your wings.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Probably referring to Darwin. So what you are basically saying is those proponents of evolution prior to Darwin were not based on "objective verifiable evidence" which means prior to Darwin all of them were just saying things. Do you think that if someone observed that in different areas, in different climates, animals had differences only explainable by evolution is an "objective verifiable evidence"? Just curious.
It is a fact Darwin that was the first to propose a coherent theory based on 'objective verifiable evidence' and traveled the world collecting data and observations. There were a few other scientists, associates of Darwin and his father that proposed 'ideas' and conjecture and supported Charles Darwin's work. They also corresponded with Darwin. No, prior to Charles Darwin coherent scientific work developing the theory of evolution did not exist
firedragon
Veteran Member
You mean to say "Not to the sophisticated level of Darwin". But does that mean it did not exist whatsoever?
That question is not to mean Darwin was not the first to come up with a "coherent theory" as you put it. Thats correct.
I think he's got it! By jove he's got it!
Sorry to be flippant, but if one disregards the Bible, all the rest does tend to make sense. Your problem if you choose to believe the Bible, or a literal interpretation of such, so as to have conflict with respected scientific theories. Many Christians apparently can live with both the Bible and science, perhaps because they don't take all of it literally - especially things like Adam and Eve.
We are still animals - just different ones, and suitably evolved ones, than others.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
I didn't even after I left the Church because my education in science was so heavily skewed that I just didn't get it. RF was basically my education for evolution.
What was your childhood like?
I'm just curious about your path...so very different from mine.
Astrophile
Active Member
What do you understand by the word 'theory'? Do you think that the theory of evolution is on the same level of probability as, for example, the thermodynamic theory of heat?
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
In regards to religion, Christianity, I wasn't too bad, but bad enough to have some anxieties over being trans, but when I was homeschooled I got really bad. I was very preachy, very goody-shoes, and did abstain from a lot because the Bible says it's bad.
And there was also the traumatized and abusive elements that left me terrified of angering god and being tossed into Hell forever. I was actually well liked and highly thought of in Church, but I was having nightmares of going to hell. And the more that added up, the more religious I got. And the more religion the more all that stuff added up. I was even being brought up to be the new youth pastor when the current one then moved.
And I would say it was a disability. A newish term, religious trauma syndrome, is even starting to be more used. In such environments it's not unusual for self esteem and confidence to be low (because your constantly told how unworthy you are and how much of a dirty, filthy, damned sinner you are). Science and history and social studies are presented in a way that will be detrimental for students who want to pursue careers requiring higher education. And those home school programs are know for producing really smart kids, the reality is the programs emphasis rote memory and not obtaining, processing, and evaluating information. So not that smart.
Add in depression and anxiety that is of a source that's allegedly supposed to be great for people, plus the ways it distorted learning social stuff (more than it already was), yeah, it was a disability.
Sounds harrowing.
What was the process of changing course?
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
Getting away from home schooling and thus out of the insulated bubble was tremendously helpful. But so was nothing ever really getting better. All the problems I was having, being constantly reminded of Jesus' love and promises, a life of mental and physical anguishes that had spiritual and existential torments as well, but being told we all have our crosses to bear. I started to have a crisis of faith, and when I needed Jehovah and guidance the most I turned to the Bible, where I found not love and healing but tyranny and destruction. All over and throughout, not a lot of good going on.
I was also fortunately receptive to information. Not only did I learn things like Gilgamesh being older than Noah, how languages did branch out and develop, and that Christians played a role in the collapse of Rome, I learned more importantly the world isn't out to get Christians, the prohibitions on Merry Christmas or praying in school don't exist, I even saw Catholics openingly running around what was supposed to be this den of evil with ash crosses on their foreheads. And all those realizations did leave me feeling lied to.
I tried to cling on and hold on to it, tried to justify it anyway I could, but eventually I learned a lot of the OT was taken from other cultures, and even rejected it due to the general wickedness and cruelty of Abraham's God, but eventually the irreconcilable fact that without an OT there is no point or purpose for the NT, it's all nothing, and that tower collapsed and fell hard, causing this former teenaged "super Christian" to begin a second life, a new life as Old Me. I still remember the look on one of my friend's face, a look of puzzlement and confusion, and he said it's weird hearing me cuss. Because that Christian Me never would have even said damn or s***, and I was even further away from the gutter than Wu.
Being someone who managed to escape that cult, however, left me with a lot of holes and questions in life I still haven't quite answers. Like, I spend my youth cultivating and interest and knowledge in something that was toxic to me, even planning a "career" in it despite it breaking me down psychologically. I didn't even realize I'm pretty smart and intelligent until I started doing well in at university (rather than community college). And that was only about seven years ago. Of course other factors messed me up as well, but the beliefs of a religion that can leave a child terrified of an angry god, no will or drive to live and suicidal, in so many ways it is disabling to be fed very bad information and not taught how to process it, and emphasizing an angry god and eternal torment so much a child cries herself to sleep at night and then has nightmares of anguish from being separated from god and the pains of feeling the fires of hell.
But the process itself was very coarse. The Nine Inch Nails song Terrible Lie strongly resonates with the process. However, I was very lucky in once I was done I was done with it, no regrets, no doubts, no looking back, no crawling back (such things are common among those of us fortunate enough to be pulled out). I also find it very irksome when people claim it's hopeless to try to get people out because of a belief that it doesn't happen.
It's only my opinion, but that was a less than positive experience.
But it could be said that you were fortunate to have recovered
from it intact....IMO.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
Yeah. Many do not survive the ordeal. I did. And I've used that to be an adversary to the Christians. Except here (California), because they don't approach me about it here and give me reason to slap them upside the head with what they don't know about the Bible. I'm getting lazy.
Fixed.
I’m waiting with baited breath for the next poll on how many Americans know that the sun is a star.
I did not say 'none whatsoever,' because I did mention Lucretius as peoposing the first 'natural evolution' in the poem 'The Nature of Things.' As far as hypothetical 'others' I know of none. Biblical Creationism dominated science and Western thought up until the 18th century
I did mention Charles Darwin's Father .Erasmus, proposed something like evolution in a poem and discussed the proposal of evolution with his son. There may have been others that proposed some 'ideas' for evolution from the philosophical perspective.
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