Two Gods in OT

Jeremiah Ames · Aug 23, 2021

Teritos said:
the hebrew word echad can also mean unity, doesn't have to be one.

Let US create man
man became like ONE OF US to recognize good and bad
remember your CREATORS
etc.

I don’t know where you’re attempting to go with this, but here’s a verse:

John 10:30
I and my Father are one.

There are dozens more, and they are alleged quotes directly from the mouth of Jesus. (Translated into English here)

Nothing about unity. But a very precise number.

1

Jeremiah Ames · Aug 23, 2021

Teritos said:
The best day of my life will be the end of this world, I will rejoice when I see your faces on that day.

What happens in the world doesn’t end before you do?

RabbiO · Aug 23, 2021

Harel13 said:
Sooo...two gods?

Thank you. You have been of great assistance in terms of solving the ages-old Jewish halachic debate of whether or not Christianity may be constituted as polytheism.

Not sure most Christians would be happy with your conclusion, though.

Personally I am always cautious about accepting advice from some one whose name rhymes with Doritos and Tostitos.

blü 2 · Aug 23, 2021

Teritos said:
In the OT there are two Gods. First the God who is not seen, because he is spirit, and second the God who is seen, because he is the manifestation of the invisible God, who is called "angel". He speaks as if he were God because he is God, but at the same time there is another God who sent him. Both work together, they work as one.

The Angel of the Lord in OT is Jesus! When Jesus was born that Angel disapeared, because he is that Angel! The Angel of the Lord is the Word of God, everything was created through him.

Jesus isn't a created being, he is the Word of God. The Word of God cannot be created. It sounds illogical to us human beings, but God's word is a person, we cannot compare our word with God's.

That's my thought.

In the early books of the Tanakh, henotheism is the norm and Yahweh is one of many tribal gods ─ see Exodus 15:11, 20:3, Deuteronomy 5:7, Numbers 33:4, Judges 11;23-24, Psalms 82:1, 86:8, 95:3, 135:5 &c. The example from Judges is particularly clear:

Judges 11:23 So the Lord, the God of Israel, dispossessed the Amorites from before his people Israel; and are you to take possession of them? 24 Will you not possess what Chemosh your god gives you to possess? And all that the Lord our God has dispossessed before us, we will possess.

And that's also why the commandment reads "no other gods before me", not "ain't no other gods".

But by the end of the Babylonian captivity, monotheism has taken over. In this monotheism, God has two principal forms (apart from burning bushes &c) ─ as the invisible almighty God of the Jews, and as the ruach or breath of God, which resembles the Holy Ghost but is not a distinct entity but simply a form of the only God.

firedragon · Aug 23, 2021

Teritos said:
In the OT there are two Gods. First the God who is not seen, because he is spirit, and second the God who is seen, because he is the manifestation of the invisible God, who is called "angel". He speaks as if he were God because he is God, but at the same time there is another God who sent him. Both work together, they work as one.

The Angel of the Lord in OT is Jesus! When Jesus was born that Angel disapeared, because he is that Angel! The Angel of the Lord is the Word of God, everything was created through him.

Jesus isn't a created being, he is the Word of God. The Word of God cannot be created. It sounds illogical to us human beings, but God's word is a person, we cannot compare our word with God's.

That's my thought.

Does the OT tell you explicitly any of this? As in "The Angel of the Lord is Jesus, and is the word of God". Are there any statements like that?

firedragon · Aug 23, 2021

Teritos said:
The best day of my life will be the end of this world, I will rejoice when I see your faces on that day.

How will you recognise them?

firedragon · Aug 23, 2021

Jeremiah Ames said:
I don’t know where you’re attempting to go with this, but here’s a verse:

John 10:30
I and my Father are one.

There are dozens more, and they are alleged quotes directly from the mouth of Jesus. (Translated into English here)

Nothing about unity. But a very precise number.

1

John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you.

Clara Tea · Aug 24, 2021

Rival said:
It's alright, Christians aren't ever really happy with even other Christians' answers about who and what Jesus is

In fact, it is the source of wars and pretext for torture.

Clara Tea · Aug 24, 2021

firedragon said:
How will you recognise them?

Do we retain memory of who we were? Are we going to be reincarnated?

Clara Tea · Aug 24, 2021

Jeremiah Ames said:
I don’t know where you’re attempting to go with this, but here’s a verse:

John 10:30
I and my Father are one.

There are dozens more, and they are alleged quotes directly from the mouth of Jesus. (Translated into English here)

Nothing about unity. But a very precise number.

1

I think that God is composed of trillions of souls, and God puts a piece of himself in each human, which guides the actions of the human. Good goes back to heaven to be part of God, and bad goes to hell....locked away, never to return. By this method, God purifies himself.

So, when Jesus said that he is one with the Father, that is true. But, it is also true of the rest of us.

Psychics believe that God speaks with a voice like many waters. Those are many voices, speaking exactly the same words. This is because they all agree and all have discussed everything for billions of years. Yet, there are some dissenting (evil) voices that must be purged.

Pastors cringe at the notion that God could be anything but purely good, or fragmented into more than one entity. But consider the actions of God (making a world of cruelty in which one animal devours another). Surely God is not purely good. Instead of asking God for forgiveness, perhaps we are the ones who are supposed to forgive God?

Clara Tea · Aug 24, 2021

dybmh said:
Yes, but it's the same word/ root between the two verses. So I think it's a valid counter example considering my objection was equating Hebrew to Greek.

danieldemol said:
I'm beginning to think your brand of Christianity is about petty malice...

A true Christian doesn't rejoice at the misery of others.

Teritos · Aug 24, 2021

dybmh said:
@Teritos , What about Isaiah 41:9?

Here, God can't be the suffering servant. It's a little stronger than the previous example because everything is contained in one single verse.

"I took you from the ends of the earth, from its farthest corners I called you. I said, ‘You are my servant’ I have chosen you and have not rejected you."

It says "I called you", not "I called myself". Doesn't this verse refute an equivilance of God to the suffering servant? I know it's a tad off-topic. But I'm interested in your reponse.

How does Zechariah 3:1-2 make sense?

Then he showed me the high priest Joshua standing before the Angel of YHWH, with Satan standing at his right side to accuse him. YHWH said to Satan: YHWH rebuke you, Satan!

Here the angel is called YHWH again, and the Bible mentions YHWH said to Satan: YHWH will rebuke you Two YHWHs. One YHWH speaks about the other YHWH. One of the YHWH became man, he became a suffering servant.
There is no doubt this Angel was Jesus.
Now, Father, glorify me in your presence with that glory I had with you before the world existed. John 17:5

It was the angel of the Lord who spoke to Moses in the bush: I am that I am, I am the God of your fathers
Later Jesus said: Before Abraham was, I AM.

God said in the OT: I, YHWH, search the heart, I test the mind, to give to each person according to his ways, according to the results of his deeds.
Later Jesus said: and all the churches will know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts; and I will give to each one of you according to your deeds.

firedragon · Aug 24, 2021

Clara Tea said:
Do we retain memory of who we were? Are we going to be reincarnated?

You never know.

Redemptionsong · Aug 24, 2021

Harel13 said:
Sooo...two gods?

Thank you. You have been of great assistance in terms of solving the ages-old Jewish halachic debate of whether or not Christianity may be constituted as polytheism.

Not sure most Christians would be happy with your conclusion, though.

I have to say that l'm not happy with this conclusion.

Mark 12:29. 'And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:'

Redemptionsong · Aug 24, 2021

dybmh said:
God doesn't get weary. Jesus can't be a god.

Isaiah 40:28 - Do you not know? Have you not heard? The LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He will not grow tired or weary; His understanding is beyond searching out.

John 4:6 - Since Jacob's well was there, Jesus, weary from His journey, sat down by the well. It was about the sixth hour.

This is true, he cannot be God the Father. But, on earth, in the flesh, Jesus can be the Son of God, and a god.

Psalm 82:6. 'I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.'

IMO.

Teritos · Aug 24, 2021

Redemptionsong said:
I have to say that l'm not happy with this conclusion.

Mark 12:29. 'And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:'

You can interpret a lot into " one ".

One nation is made up of several people.
One God is made up of several persons.

There is for sure not only one God in terms of persons according to bible, there are many Gods but they harmonize.

Jeremiah Ames · Aug 24, 2021

Clara Tea said:
I think that God is composed of trillions of souls, and God puts a piece of himself in each human. Good goes back to heaven to be part of God, and bad goes to hell....locked away, never to return.

So, when Jesus said that he is one with the Father, that is true. But, it is also true of the rest of us.

I agree with you here Clara Tea.
Thanks for your comment.

dybmh · Aug 24, 2021

.

Teritos said:
How does Zechariah 3:1-2 make sense?

The angel's mission was to speak on behalf of God.

Kelly of the Phoenix · Aug 24, 2021

Teritos said:
In the OT there are two Gods. First the God who is not seen, because he is spirit, and second the God who is seen, because he is the manifestation of the invisible God, who is called "angel". He speaks as if he were God because he is God, but at the same time there is another God who sent him. Both work together, they work as one.

The Angel of the Lord in OT is Jesus! When Jesus was born that Angel disapeared, because he is that Angel! The Angel of the Lord is the Word of God, everything was created through him.

Jesus isn't a created being, he is the Word of God. The Word of God cannot be created. It sounds illogical to us human beings, but God's word is a person, we cannot compare our word with God's.

That's my thought.

There are way more Gods than that because the original theology was polytheism.

Kelly of the Phoenix · Aug 24, 2021

Teritos said:
The best day of my life will be the end of this world, I will rejoice when I see your faces on that day.

I live with chronic depression and anxiety and I don’t consider death to be something to look forward to unless I am in desperate need of psychological assistance.

Two Gods in OT

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