dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Thank you , that's helpful.
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The State of Hell and Heaven
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RestlessSoul
Well-Known Member
“L’enfer, c’est les autres”, en dit Jean Paul Sartre.
But I think Sartre was only half right. Hell is not other people; hell is our own inability to connect with other people. In fact, salvation is connection.
The more self obsessed we become, the further we descend into a self made hell; the more we think of the needs of others, before our own selfish desires, the closer we get to heaven.
Then the Mafia doesn't exist because it is a group of bad people who work together for evil purposes. They work to enrich their group, and they are "somewhat" loyal to their group.
In some societies is it wrong to rat out bad guys. In Mafia neighborhoods the citizens say "I ain't seen nothin', I ain't heard nothin', and I don't know nothin'.
Those who do report to the police don't live long (nor do their pets, their family, nor their friends).
Cops are considered counter to their culture (a culture of narcotics and prostitutes)....but a culture that buys food and luxuries. That is, the roles of the good guys and bad guys are reversed.
Today, following a pattern of cops beating Black people, Black Lives Matter groups are pushing to defund the police. This is because the cops are perceived to be the bad guys. Of course, defunding would be anarchy, and the most evil would prevail.
Largely, though, you are right, that one doesn't need to change climate to change heaven into hell. It is largely a matter of caring about others.
Some folks masquerade as good guys. For example, Reverend Jim Bakker and his wife, Tammy Fay Bakker, asked for donations for the poor of Africa, but used the money for their own luxuries. As their name implies, they will bake in the fires of hell.
The closer we all get to heaven. Instead of hoards of homeless people stealing to stay alive (especially bicycles), we could fix poverty, and thereby fix theft, thus making our own lives better.
The compassionate decisions often lead to cheaper and better solutions. While opponents sneer that we are squandering their hard earned money to keep hospitals going, it is often the best thing for society. Consider a man who needs a leg operation, which would otherwise result in losing the leg. Without a leg, he loses his job, and without a job, he loses his wife and kids. Without a job, he is less of an asset to society.
This is why those who lower taxes for the rich often don't understand that helping the poor also helps society.
Correct (about all being the same). Except, what about Satan and evil? Is that part of God also? Why doesn't God eliminate Satan? Could it be that Satan, some day, would repent?
RestlessSoul
Well-Known Member
I don't really believe in Satan as an independent living entity (I see him as a metaphor for human vanity and pride), buy even if he were a fallen angel ruling in a literal hell, wouldn't the possibility of repentance still be open to him?
TheWingMan
Christian Evolutionist
Hell has, in times past, referred to the grave, which in all practical applications is literally the span of our entire lives. Valley of the shadow of death. Wages of sin being death. On that day you will surely die, but ... here we are living, so hell is more of a state of being to me, as is heaven. On earth as it is in heaven ... heaven and hell are more about coming to know victory as we venture this path, despite the hardship and calamity. It's about learning how to live a prosperous life despite the difficulty. Selfish? Selfishness is required, just as consideration for those who share this world with us is required. Selfless is a term I find a little misleading. There's always ulterior motives involved in selflessness, which makes it selfish by default.
TheWingMan
Christian Evolutionist
True altruism is an illusion or self aspired delusion. It makes us feel better about ourselves, which is why I suggest this. That aspect is real, so like I stated, there's ulterior motives involved in selflessness. That's not a bad thing. I'm the same way.
The afterlife would be just if we float to our final reward and find it filled with our clones...exact duplicates in every way. If good...heaven. If bad....hell.
It isn't a matter of the climate (hot), nor the jailer (Satan). It is a matter of the company. Can we stand ourselves? Would we be great to have around?
We might be surprised by the heaven or hell we encounter. Maybe we pull the blankets around ourselves at night (human burrito)...leaving our partners cold (a "me first" attitude)? Maybe sins are not composed of one bad act, but many small ones? Marriages go astray because of the "small stuff."
For sure, it would not be heaven if it was not necessary to atone. Atonement means that you will never do it again, and you were sorry you did it in the first place, and it likely involves repayment to the injured party.
Some believe that risking one's life for one's country or for one's friend, is meritorious. Yet, God said "thou shalt not kill" and "turn the other cheek." Surely going off to war, regardless of the human justification, is not enough to justify it in God's eyes. To God, we are all his children, and God wants us to know that no matter what the sin, God will handle it in his own way. God will take care of our enemies, in due time, and we don't have to sully our hands with murder.
So, when you glance up and see yourself....scream that you have died....but then suddenly remember that you have an identical twin on earth. Whew, that was a close call.
Death....when we get our just deserts. A dollar and 47 cents? Is that it? No more? Life....it was hardly worth the wages.
TheWingMan
Christian Evolutionist
Interesting thoughts. At one ment ... are we separate from or are we one with? Separation is the delusion, and we ourselves the culprits behind that delusion. God is, heaven is, hell is, and we are as we are until we change (repent). That's the crux. Life is what we make it ... both collectively and individually.
I guess the question is: Where and/or how do you or we want to be and what will it take for us to realize this simplicity?
Murder? I'm not a fan. Death? Well, that's part of living. Is it a wage? Yes, we live as we die and die as we live, so the wages of are largely dependant upon the collective us.
heaven is where ever other as self is and self are sharing conversation and a meal together. communion
28 This wine is my blood, which will be poured out to forgive the sins of many and begin the new agreement from God to his people. 29 I want you to know, I will not drink this wine again until that day when we are together in my Father’s kingdom and the wine is new. Then I will drink it again with you.”
30 They all sang a song and then went out to the Mount of Olives.
come gather yourselves together - monism
Matthew 8:11
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unconditional love, perfect love, isn't like tribalism. it knows no bounds between self and other as self. everyone wants to be loved but not everyone is loving to everyone.
love thy enemies
love thy enemy.
at the end of the age, even satan will repent, and turn to love. nothing survives without it.
ever heard of mirroring?
again as said before the problem isn't in desire the problem is in how the desire finally manifests.. I want to live lavishly and receive all kinds of adulation because i'm a service to self type. Lazarus is lying at the gates and the dogs are licking his wounds. Ignore him? help him?
to help another in "need" is a win win situation. to satisfy a "want" is only a win.
love transcends death. that energy cannot be destroyed. it only transforms.
who would, in their right mind, would want to leave all their loved one's for a heaven with no one to share it with? most of the time people don't realize just how happy a moment they had until much later and then they relive it over and over.
heaven if you could see it now, is much like how you remember it later.
TheWingMan
Christian Evolutionist
I would absolutely agree. That doesn't deduct from that by doing so, you are exercising a win for self also. That's what I was alluding to. BTW, it's not a problem, it's a reality.
its a problem that has two responses. the response determines the type of service.
Then what is the point of trying to go to heaven? If we are not going to a nice place (filled with selfless people), then why go at all? Wouldn't it be like heaven if only foul people went there?
Maybe other people don't want to connect?