Was Jesus a Monist?

When Jesus claimed John 14:11-20 was he claiming to be a monist? or claiming monism?

Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit
15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

What exactly do you mean by monism?

A what?

Fool said:

When Jesus claimed John 14:11-20 was he claiming to be a monist? or claiming monism?

Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit
15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

Click to expand...

He is most likely disinterested in this I think. He is about creating a new world, not about dwelling upon the material of which the world consists. John 1 through 3 talks about this new creation, and the other NT authors reference this, too. Paul says if anyone be in Christ he is a new creation. James says that the Father of lights, gives birth to us through the word of truth. All of these references to a new creation are a rejection of the previous which is considered to be darkness and void, fading away, turning to nothing and being replaced by something more consistent, stable, permanent. Part of that new world involves direct revelation from the Father to individuals, each given birth by that word of truth from the Father. As Peter, each person received revelation from the Father, thus overturning the previous way of doing things: disciples learning from and obeying masters in order to receive the spirit through them. This, the rabbinical way, Jesus departs from.

I'm not going into detail, but this doesn't rule out having teachers. It just means things work differently according to Jesus vision and that he has not belief in continuing to do things the same way. Its less theological than you might think. Its an action plan, not a view of the elements and time and where grapes come from.

Does a monist believe that the Father reveals directly to individuals? Some might and some might not, and so it is not relevant to Jesus point of view. His point point of view is that the Father does, and I think that is what John is about not about monism.

There are many different kinds of monism.

Monism - Wikipedia

Are we talking about substance monism? Existence monism? Priority monism? Dual-aspect monism?

Brickjectivity said:

A what?

"mo·nism
(mō′nĭz′əm, mŏn′ĭz′əm)
n. Philosophy
1. The view in metaphysics that reality is a unified whole and that all existing things can be ascribed to or described by a single concept or system.
2. The doctrine that mind and matter are formed from, or reducible to, the same ultimate substance or principle of being."

--https://www.thefreedictionary.com/monist
​

He is most likely disinterested in this I think. He is about creating a new world, not about dwelling upon the material of which the world consists. John 1 through 3 talks about this new creation, and the other NT authors reference this, too. Paul says if anyone be in Christ he is a new creation. James says that the Father of lights, gives birth to us through the word of truth. All of these references to a new creation are a rejection of the previous which is considered to be darkness and void, fading away, turning to nothing and being replaced by something more consistent, stable, permanent. Part of that new world involves direct revelation from the Father to individuals, each given birth by that word of truth from the Father. As Peter, each person received revelation from the Father, thus overturning the previous way of doing things: disciples learning from and obeying masters in order to receive the spirit through them. This, the rabbinical way, Jesus departs from.

I'm not going into detail, but this doesn't rule out having teachers. It just means things work differently according to Jesus vision and that he has not belief in continuing to do things the same way. Its less theological than you might think. Its an action plan, not a view of the elements and time and where grapes come from.

Does a monist believe that the Father reveals directly to individuals? Some might and some might not, and so it is not relevant to Jesus point of view. His point point of view is that the Father does, and I think that is what John is about not about monism.

Click to expand...

a new world is understood when one steps out of the world of dualism into oneness.


paul talked about the body being the temple, that one's spirit is the Holy Ghost, or Spirit of God, and christ is all and in all.


from revelation we understand that when one becomes a pillar in the temple they no longer go out because having understood what the Name implies, they are God. revelation 3:12


we also understand from the concept of being a mansion inside the house of the Father that they are not separate but infinites inside the infinite. a house divided against itself cannot stand matthew 12:25


as long as the believer promotes dualism there can be no oneness, no john 14:20, no exodus 3:14

Fool said:

a new world is understood when one steps out of the world of dualism into oneness.


paul talked about the body being the temple, that one's spirit is the Holy Ghost, or Spirit of God, and christ is all and in all.


from revelation we understand that when one becomes a pillar in the temple they no longer go out because having understood what the Name implies, they are God. revelation 3:12


we also understand from the concept of being a mansion inside the house of the Father that they are not separate but infinites inside the infinite. a house divided against itself cannot stand matthew 12:25


as long as the believer promotes dualism there can be no oneness, no john 14:20, no exodus 3:14

Click to expand...

He never mentions duelism or monism. You've asked in your OP if he is a monist for that reason I suppose.

I think the unity of Jesus aims to be of the same sort of unity which Israel possesses, having twelve kinds of tribes and twelve wills but one nation, twelve different gemstones on one plaque. In John 17 he prays that his disciples will be one, knowing that they certainly aren't one at the time of his prayer. They aren't experiencing unity. They are experiencing ambition and quarreling, and he wants this to someday stop.

I think he says the logos is tabernacle'd among people. Translators often just say "Dwells among us," but it is tabernacle in the original from what I am told. We the people as tabernacle implies unity of fellowship, not unity of words and opinion. My reasoning is that words mislead as do thoughts. Comparing words and thoughts is like counting chicks that haven't yet hatched.

The hinge of John is not turning about monism or theological conundrums. It is about a kind of unity though. Jesus in John rejects the master-disciple importance. Instead he emphasizes individuals communicating with God directly, perhaps including study of scripture, and accepting such unity. Instead of unity through all being in one tight faction in John 1 he says the people are the tabernacle of the logos. He opposes all of the factions, too, such as Pharisees, such as Sadducee. I think he sees no future in factions and thinks of them as failures. He would have the Pharisee and the Sadducee groups break up into individuals and become one large group with many insights.

Fool said:

from revelation we understand that when one becomes a pillar in the temple they no longer go out because having understood what the Name implies, they are God. revelation 3:12

Click to expand...

I think if you were that knowledgeable about Revelation you'd be asking me about my opinion instead of telling me what it is. I have insights that would clash with yours, however we can be on the same web site. We can share a meal and not be angry.

Fool said:

a new world is understood when one steps out of the world of dualism into oneness.

Click to expand...

Can you see how you are changing the topic on me? You've disregarded that I consider John to be talking about a new way of practicing Judaism. You want to converse, then you don't. Its like you're a rubber band. Why not just tell me, straight up, what you think it is that oneness can accomplish so we can stop skipping about bushes and me wasting more ink. You've lured me into an honest reply and then turned to me the back of your head, like you're playing some cell phone game.

I don't care about the word onness, cause I got tired of Wizanda trying to tell everyone what their religion was. Nevertheless tell me what you think it can accomplish. Green eggs and ham.

Fool said:

as long as the believer promotes dualism there can be no oneness, no john 14:20, no exodus 3:14

Click to expand...

...and your point is? The wonderful thing that is oneness can do what, exactly? What do all of the religions have to give up in order to obtain this oneness? All become Islam? What? What? Say what you're trying to say.

Fool said:

paul talked about the body being the temple, that one's spirit is the Holy Ghost, or Spirit of God, and christ is all and in all.

Click to expand...

The point you are trying to draw from it is...what, please?

Fool said:

When Jesus claimed John 14:11-20 was he claiming to be a monist? or claiming monism?

Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

Click to expand...

Yes, it is my understanding that Jesus was teaching monism in this saying of his.

This is other similar sayings of monism in other world religions like sufism and advaita...

Ana 'l-Ḥaqq. -- "I am the Truth" ( Mansur Al Hallaj, Sufi enlightened sage )

Aham Brahmasmi . ~ I am Brahman (Brihadaranyaka Upanishad )

Brahmavit brahmaiva bhavati -- 'The knower of Brahman becomes Brahman'. (Mundaka Upanishad 3.2.9)

Click to expand...

As per advaitan philosophy, one who had attained enlightenment becomes one with the universal spirit, and speaks from the foundation of this identity as well.

Fool said:

a new world is understood when one steps out of the world of dualism into oneness.

Click to expand...

The Bible is dualistic and so when one steps out of the world of dualism you end up having to misinterpret other parts of the Bible because of having stepped out. You interpret the Bible to fit into your theory when the reality is that God is God and everything else is the creation, and the creation is not and never becomes the creator.
The rest of your post imo shows misinterpretations because of wanting to view the Bible from the wrong perspective.
This sort of thing happens with everyone who wants to read the Bible to fit into their own philosophies.

Brian2 said:

The Bible is dualistic and so when one steps out of the world of dualism you end up having to misinterpret other parts of the Bible because of having stepped out. You interpret the Bible to fit into your theory when the reality is that God is God and everything else is the creation, and the creation is not and never becomes the creator.
The rest of your post imo shows misinterpretations because of wanting to view the Bible from the wrong perspective.
This sort of thing happens with everyone who wants to read the Bible to fit into their own philosophies.

Click to expand...

the bible doesn't claim that god created anything separate from itself. In fact, the bible claims that god exists in the world it created. things go awry when mankind tries to separate god from themselves, or it's creation.

mankind tries to define an eternal/infinite thing in a dualist/separate idea. that is where the trouble begins

dualists define god a place and never the twain shall meet.

Brickjectivity said:

I don't care about the word onness, cause I got tired of Wizanda trying to tell everyone what their religion was. Nevertheless tell me what you think it can accomplish. Green eggs and ham.

...and your point is? The wonderful thing that is oneness can do what, exactly? What do all of the religions have to give up in order to obtain this oneness? All become Islam? What? What? Say what you're trying to say.

The point you are trying to draw from it is...what, please?

Click to expand...

so basically you have a "personal" word bias to the idea of oneness? yet you use the synonym unity; which again is a whole.

my point to paul's statement is again that self is not separate from god except in the delusion one has to continually promote as a dualist that they are


god saw itself formed as good but then mankind's heart was continually on evil was the problem. the problem being that selfishness doesn't recognize other as self, or as co-equal. self then plays the hypocrite. literally hypocrisy means to cover, to mask.

when self understands that all is divine at its core being, one can't be so flippant without recognizing what one is doing to self. what ever you do unto the least of these, you do unto me. again monism

Brickjectivity said:

I think if you were that knowledgeable about Revelation you'd be asking me about my opinion instead of telling me what it is. I have insights that would clash with yours, however we can be on the same web site. We can share a meal and not be angry.

Click to expand...

revelation, or to uncover, is about self. about self removing the mask, the hypocrisy of pretending that there is a difference between self and other as self. self will have to face it's own conscience in this place where jacob wrestled with love and met god face to face


what else could be as apocalyptic? the dawning of love everlasting, love unconditional or shame


1 Corinthians 13:12


The Greek word took on an extended meaning to refer to any person who was wearing a figurative mask and pretending to be someone or something they were not. This sense was taken into medieval French and then into English, where it showed up with its earlier spelling, ypocrite, in 13th-century religious texts to refer to someone who pretends to be morally good or pious in order to deceive others. (Hypocrite gained its initial h- by the 16th century.)

Fool said:

the bible doesn't claim that god created anything separate from itself. In fact, the bible claims that god exists in the world it created. things go awry when mankind tries to separate god from themselves, or it's creation.

mankind tries to define an eternal/infinite thing in a dualist/separate idea. that is where the trouble begins

dualists define god a place and never the twain shall meet.

Click to expand...

You can say that if those are your ideas but you should realise that they are not what the Bible teaches about God and creation.

Brian2 said:

You can say that if those are your ideas but you should realise that they are not what the Bible teaches about God and creation.

Click to expand...

jesus told you that you have one teacher, the christ. paul tells you where this christ is, Christ is all and in all.

psalms 46:10 to be exalted in the earth not just heaven


the bible does not say that creation was something separated from god. god doesn't separate itself from it's son, it intrinsic to it.

Fool said:

jesus told you that you have one teacher, the christ. paul tells you where this christ is, Christ is all and in all.

psalms 46:10 to be exalted in the earth not just heaven


the bible does not say that creation was something separated from god. god doesn't separate itself from it's son, it intrinsic to it.

Click to expand...

Humans (not the whole of creation) were made in the image of God and the image became marred through sin. Jesus came to save us from the consequences of sin (death) and to bring that image back to what it should be. Jesus was the perfect man and through His life in us we are born again and adopted as children of God and are changed into the image of Christ.
The divine stepped down and became human to raise us up back to what true humanity should be.
We remain human and part of the creation however and never become divine even if we partake of the divine nature through the indwelling Spirit of God/Christ which joins us to Christ spiritually and so to each other as members of the Body of Christ.
2Peter 1:3 His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through the knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. 4 Through these He has given us His precious and magnificent promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, now that you have escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Brian2 said:

Humans (not the whole of creation) were made in the image of God and the image became marred through sin. Jesus came to save us from the consequences of sin (death) and to bring that image back to what it should be. Jesus was the perfect man and through His life in us we are born again and adopted as children of God and are changed into the image of Christ.
The divine stepped down and became human to raise us up back to what true humanity should be.
We remain human and part of the creation however and never become divine even if we partake of the divine nature through the indwelling Spirit of God/Christ which joins us to Christ spiritually and so to each other as members of the Body of Christ.
2Peter 1:3 His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through the knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. 4 Through these He has given us His precious and magnificent promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, now that you have escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Click to expand...

that is because humans want to define god in their image and separate god from themselves. god does not create division. love creates union. all have been enslaved to it


love is perfection proverbs 10:12 the self that has unconditional love is perfected 1 John 4:18


matthew 11:29-30

Fool said:

that is because humans want to define god in their image and separate god from themselves. god does not create division. love creates union. all have been enslaved to it


love is perfection proverbs 10:12 the self that has unconditional love is perfected 1 John 4:18


matthew 11:29-30

Click to expand...

Are you saying that we are God,,,,,,,,something like a Hindu might say?

Brian2 said:

Are you saying that we are God,,,,,,,,something like a Hindu might say?

Click to expand...

exodus 3:14 you are baptized in this name for a reason.

revelation 14:1
revelation 22:4


your spirit is god's spirit

psalms 82:6

Fool said:

exodus 3:14 you are baptized in this name for a reason.

revelation 14:1
revelation 22:4


your spirit is god's spirit

psalms 82:6

Click to expand...

Christians are baptised by the authority of God and into Christ. Our spirit is joined with the Spirit of Christ, but that does not mean we are God. We are human and are changed to become the fullness of Christ who now has the nature of a servant as well as the divine nature of His Father. We partake of that divine nature in Christ but never have the fullness of that nature as Christ has.

Brian2 said:

Christians are baptised by the authority of God and into Christ. Our spirit is joined with the Spirit of Christ, but that does not mean we are God. We are human and are changed to become the fullness of Christ who now has the nature of a servant as well as the divine nature of His Father. We partake of that divine nature in Christ but never have the fullness of that nature as Christ has.

Click to expand...

chrisitans are baptized in the name(singular) of the Father, the son, and the holy Spirit. this is the ineffable name. that name is mentioned all through out the bible. this is the name that you are not to take in vain. this is the name above all names philippians 2:9. this is the seal that was placed on the foreheads of the righteous in ezekiel 9:4


the name isn't jesus
the name isn't christ but the name is a seal, an annointing


john 21:15 tells you that christ isn't a single individual the arnions