Clarifications on Christianity

KenS said:

Good questions... and I don't think I have had anyone ask those questions.

It isn't just that one thing that happened to Mary that qualified her (although, to my knowledge, no other virgin had a baby... but rather a multiplicity of reasons:

applying-the-science-of-probability-to-the-scriptures

As far as "why didn't previous religions worship that way"... well, I'm not sure they didn't (subtracting those who worshipped false gods.

The Jerusalem Edition of the Zohar, in its comment on Genesis 1:1, explains why the authors believe that God is triune. They point out especially that the name of God, Elohim, is made up of the two Hebrew words El and Haym. El means God and Haym means they; therefore, they conclude that God is a plural being. The Zohar passage is as follows:

Rabbinic Judaism and the Plurality of God

But, regardless, understanding God isn't an easy endeavor. Who can understand all of God? We see Jesus as the fulness of the expression of God.

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Thank you for your detailed response.

1.I see that there are quite a few prophecies, but would the majority of people believe Mary based on these prophecies that seem to be specific to certain people? I just wrote in another post why I'm intrigued by this specific question, the Quran chapter retelling this specific story mentions that Jesus spoke in infancy to defend Mary when she was being accused of an illegitimate child, and Jesus defending her was what led people to believe her (although not everyone was still convinced despite that miracle in itself), and I was wondering if there was a different explanation in Christianity as to why people would believe her, since that specific story does not appear to be mentioned.

2. That to me seems like a very unlikely reasoning to explain that they worshiped him that way, as it seems like a stretch to base such a huge conclusion on grammatical/translation points, wouldn't you think it would addressed specifically in more detail in Hebrew scriptures?

Regarding your last statement about understanding God, my belief is that it isn't our job to try to understand God, rather our purpose is to try to worship him correctly.

PearlSeeker said:

According to story an angel of the Lord explained it to Joseph.


Trinity is regarded as a monotheistic concept. It says God is one.

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1. Assuming that, it still wouldn't explain how jospeh and mary would make people believe them, which is what I am wondering.

2. That wasn't my question, my question is rather why did the concept of the belief in the trinity only start in Christianity when previous prophets did not teach that?

viole said:

Same with your black stone. Who would do such a claim, which was the first go its kind? Incidentally, virgin birth myths predate Christianity. The founders of Rome, for instance, are supposed to be born from a virgin. There are many such examples.

And the sky is the limit of what people can believe. Probably you believe in winged horses.



Well, it happens Christians believe in extraordinary claims also if they do not come from a certified prophet. At the end of the day, you have to hit a bottom and believe, by pure faith, in the truth of that initial claim, that bootstraps the rest. Call it hadith, Gospel, or whatever.

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Your still not understanding my point...You are trying to explain why you think people believe in things in general or the concept of faith, and that is not what I am asking at all. I am asking a specific question about when Mary first revealed jesus, what made the people at that time believe her?
If a person was to claim at that time that they had a miracle child no one would believe them normally, there would have to be a very good reason for them to believe them initially before it becomes a matter of faith. I am asking for that reason. As we have an explanation for that reason in Islam and I am trying to see if a similar explanation exists in Christianity.

Brian2 said:

I don't think Mary spread the news around.
The gospels tell us Mary was betrothed to Joseph and he found she was pregnant and did not want to marry her but also did not want to get her into any trouble. We are told Joseph had a dream in which an angel told him that the pregnancy was of God. Joseph believed and the marriage continued and nobody was the wiser except for Joseph and Mary.
Mary was around when Jesus was crucified and rose again and she knew Jesus was special and had treasured and wondered about all the things that had happened when she became pregnant and as Jesus was growing up. I imagine that she would have told disciples of Jesus at that stage.
We are told in John's gospel that when Jesus died John took Mary into his house to live with him so he could care for her.



Initially after the resurrection the trinity doctrine was not taught as a trinity doctrine. The Sonship of Jesus to His Father God was taught however.
Obvious heresies developed over time and eventually the clarification of who Jesus is was forced on the church by the heresies and developed into the formal trinity doctrine to explain what was said of Jesus in gospels and epistles etc and to open up the understanding of the Hebrew Scriptures in the light of what Jesus had done.
There are still many variations on the theme of who Jesus is these days of course so an orthodox view was needed imo even if it, on the surface does not seem to be in the Hebrew scriptures and other Abrahamic religions do not teach it.
The doctrine seems implied in the Old Testament and becomes more explicit in the New Testament. Revelation from and about God was not complete in the Old Testament period and the oneness of God is still taught in the New Testament in a different way.
Other Abrahamic religions (Islam) seems a bit confused about Jesus and teaches against the truth of the Gospel message as described in the Bible.



It's just what is taught in the Bible imo. It certainly causes conflict in Christianity and many with orthodox teachings say that others are not true Christians and visa versa.
I sometimes wonder if God sees it like that.

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1. But before he grew up and proved himself through miracles, what made convinced she had a miracle child? See my post above clarifying the intention of my question.

2. What gave the Church the right to "clarify" who Jesus was, and how can you know that clarification was the truth?

3. Why would you say Islam is confused about Jesus? It is very clear to us who Jesus PBUH was and what his message was, which is consistent with the messages of all the prophets before him and after him.

alypius said:

Where do Christians teach that God is not one?

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Three "parts" of one, which is still a new concept made after Christianity not taught previously by previous prophets, which was the purpose of my original question.

Human men are egotists.

First human notation as one...all humans are one human.

Yet it takes two humans a man and wo man to continue human life.

So I look at words.

As a woman female I notify self a man self owns all word explanations.

Hu man...man...wo man...male ...Fe male.

Straight away I ask why do you think you owned naming my life presence by claim a man?

Reason...I am a man science theist. I pretend I know and own everything.

Is what I get taught. One human.

So then I say okay men you own multiple creation stories regarding self opposition. Natural human versus human egotism.

O a planet body is correct science.
O a planet body that released its gases to form a heaven.

Without man or woman false terms.

So science would state O presence of stone nowhere else as earth owned it's own heavens.

If you say the process of thinking said empty space and pressure caused a mystery change to those gases. Then you did.

So you would infer an unknown quanta existed in men's science qualified reasoning.

Which would use terms like a virgin state meaning an unbroken seal.

Comparing human sexual experience of human men to scientific theory.

sherifgg said:

1. Assuming that, it still wouldn't explain how jospeh and mary would make people believe them, which is what I am wondering.

2. That wasn't my question, my question is rather why did the concept of the belief in the trinity only start in Christianity when previous prophets did not teach that?

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1. Gospel of Luke tells several times: "Mary treasured up all these things and pondered them in her heart." This implies her testimony. Why did people believe virgin birth? Because they thought it was a fulfillment of a prophecy.

2. Progressive revelation.

"When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth." (John 16:13)

sherifgg said:

Your still not understanding my point...You are trying to explain why you think people believe in things in general or the concept of faith, and that is not what I am asking at all. I am asking a specific question about when Mary first revealed jesus, what made the people at that time believe her?
If a person was to claim at that time that they had a miracle child no one would believe them normally, there would have to be a very good reason for them to believe them initially before it becomes a matter of faith. I am asking for that reason. As we have an explanation for that reason in Islam and I am trying to see if a similar explanation exists in Christianity.

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Well, who can say? Surely, with a bit of fantasy it would be easy to explain. I could say, for instance, that the fact that they believed her, despite the obvious mundane alternative, was proof that the Holy Spirit was in Her, and in the people around Her. A miracle that provides convincing evidence that She was indeed the virgin Mother of God.

Ciao

- viole

sherifgg said:

Hey guys, I'm new to this forum but I liked the idea of debating religions so I decided to join up! I'm a muslim btw.

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Welcome! I'm a Deist......

1) Why did people believe Mary was a virgin and gave birth to Jesus through a miracle? As opposed to people saying she committed adultery which is what most people would normally assume.

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Yeah, this was added to the story later on. The (early) Gospel of Mark doesn't mention this stuff at all. I think that Roman Christians needed a female to Worship, replacing the female Gods that had previously been held so dear.
Some told about a Roman Soldier at Sepphoris (Pantera) who sired Mary.
G-Mark says nothing about it at all.
We'll never know who sired Jesus, but the virgin story is myth.

2) Since Christianity is considered an Abrahamic Monotheistic religion, and since all the prophets in Abrahamic religions prior to Christianity and after (i.e. Islam) always preached that god is one, without mention of any trinity (to my knowledge), wouldn't that prove against it?

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The Trinity got dreamed up decades after Jesus, who referred to himself as 'son of man' in the earliest gospel, this later becoming 'son of God' which all Jews thought themselves to be, and then in John's Gospel 'Son of God' as in 'God's only Son. Then devout Christians popped that title in to previous gospels.


But it has worked for two thousand years, so somebody knew how to spin a line well.

sherifgg said:

1. So are you implying that Judaism, from which Christianity is based, did not understand God?

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Nobody is claiming that understanding the trinity equals understanding God but that it is a way of thinking about the relationships that Christians have with God. This arises philosophically. It is a philosophical inquiry into the one God not a claim to understand God.

sherifgg said:

2. I am not claiming she was raped, as I mentioned in another post, we as muslims believe in Mary's miracle birth and I am not slandering her, I am trying to corroborate the explanation of Jesus's birth in Christianity with what our version of her birth in Islam tells us, which I could so far not find a similar explanation in Christianity. In Quran, chapter 19 verse 27 to verse 37 (the chapter is called maryam/mary), it mentions that people did accuse her of an atrocious act when she first appeared carrying Jesus, but Jesus PBUH came to her defense as an infant to exonerate her.

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My position is as bit different from that of most Christians, so its probably not helpful though could be interesting. I don't take the gospels literally. This is something I have talked about before on RF, and I've explained why. Its entirely possible that at the writing of these gospels they were understood not to be literal, so there would be no discrepancy. The gospels claims about Mary are ridiculous on their face, but this is on purpose. They carry a meaning, just not a literal historical meaning. They've been taken literally in error and for too long and by too many, but God isn't judgmental. God lets this go on and on and doesn't force anyone to think correct things, or this wouldn't happen. We are not so perfect that God would pay attention to the words we say. If someone were then perhaps it would be different. So, when I read in my NIV the mistranslation of Isaiah 7:14 I am not confused about its actual meaning. I know this is about a child born during the life of ancient king Ahaz. Isaiah's not predicting the birth of Jesus at all, nor are Matthew 1:23 and Luke 1:34 attempting to deceive us about Isaiah's translation. Rather, they are weaving a story with a point. They are written to people who can read Hebrew, who know how to read Isaiah 7:14. Its ridiculous to think otherwise, but subsequent resources do attempt to deceive us about this translation. They do lie, and they do hide the truth. That's what I think, and I don't blame Matthew or Luke. Their works are not intended to deceive.

[Isa 7:14 NIV] 14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.

The interpretation of the above verse requires, first of all, a rejection of the idea that miracles prove someone is a prophet. This is law for the original readers of the gospels, for anyone who is devoted to the words in Deuteronomy. Every time Matthew says that signs prove things, we automatically should know he's not speaking literally. Its like he's shouting "Not literal." Pharoah's magicians are able to imitate Moses miracles. We cannot rely upon signs to believe who is who. That is 101, so Matthew makes use of this as a writing device to convey a meaning that is beyond the literal.

sherifgg said:

Not panicking at all, I did get the purpose of your counter question but it is not what I am asking. My question is not simply why people believe in anything that has other natural explanations, it is quite more specific to the story of Mary. We as Muslims actually believe in the miracle birth of Jesus the same way Christians do, so I am not saying it is not true, nor am I asking why would anyone believe in that when there is a natural explanation, but rather more specifically when Mary claimed that she gave birth miraculously, I'm sure the majority of people at the time wouldn't of believed it normally, what made them believe such a huge claim, which was a first of its kind? Obviously there must have been something to convince people into believing her story.

And the reason I ask this specific question is because in the Islamic narration of the Mary and Jesus PBUH story there is a specific explanation as to why people believed her, but I could not find such an example in Christianity.

When you give the example of the black stone, we believe it is from heaven because it is narrated through hadith (traditional sayings of the prophet), and since we believe Prophet Muhammed PBUH is a true messenger of God, so if he did say it then it is true to us. Now you could question the authenticity of the hadeeth, since not all hadith are accurate and authenticated but this specific hadith has been authenticated. You could also question whether prophet Muhammed is a true messenger, and to me that comes from reading and understanding the Quran, but that would be an entire different debate from what I am asking.

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b

I rather doubt that the people who knew Mary at the time when she was pregnant, though anything other than that Joseph was the father, as he married her before the birth, this would have confirmed that view in their minds. I am sure other betrothed couples found themselves in similar positions with the same result. The Bile stories about the conception marriage and birth do not state that anyone else knew anything about the miraculous aspects. These did not come to light till much later.
The Catholics view that Mary remained a perpetual virgin is not supported by later Bible stories of Jesus brothers.

Modern genetics would suggest that a vergin birth could only give rise to a daughter not a son, as there can be no Y chromosome in a virgin birth with no Physical father.

The early Judeo-Christian groups as described in the Didache knew nothing of Jesus as God, the Trinity or the virginity of Mary. However this group predates the compilation of the Bible. At best some thought Jesus was the Son of God.

The best available version of the Didache. Text, translation, analysis, and commentary , is by Aaron Milavec and is available in paper back for a few pounds. (Try Abe books) if you are interested in early Christian beliefs and practices prior to the third century, when Christianity, as we know it was, established.

The Didache shows a strict but more Unitarian view of Christianity. Perhaps more in line with later Islamic belief.

Shakeel said:

In three.

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Three in one, but not three gods.

metis said:

Three in one, but not three gods.

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Three "persons" with their own jobs as "gods" — three gods.

sherifgg said:

Hey guys, I'm new to this forum but I liked the idea of debating religions so I decided to join up! I'm a muslim btw.

I would like to start off my posts by a couple things I was wondering about Christianity and would be interested to hear thoughts regarding this questions.

1) Why did people believe Mary was a virgin and gave birth to Jesus through a miracle? As opposed to people saying she committed adultery which is what most people would normally assume.

2) Since Christianity is considered an Abrahamic Monotheistic religion, and since all the prophets in Abrahamic religions prior to Christianity and after (i.e. Islam) always preached that god is one, without mention of any trinity (to my knowledge), wouldn't that prove against it?

I can split these into different threads if needed.

Thank you!

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Under the Mosaic law Mary would have been put to death if she had committed adultery. Death was the penalty for committing adultery. (Deuteronomy 22:22-24)

Mary was a virgin. Mary confirmed she was a virgin. (Luke 1:34) The Gospel writer Luke wrote that God sent the angel Gabriel to a virgin promised in marriage whose name was Mary. (Luke 1:26-27)

Mary's pregnancy came about by means of holy spirit, which is God's power in action. (Matthew 1:18) Jehovah God miraculously transferred his Son's life to the womb of Mary, causing her to conceive a child.

The God of the Bible, Jehovah, is never described as being part of a Trinity. The word Trinity never appears in the Bible.

Instead Jehovah is one Jehovah. He alone is the most high. He shares his glory with no one. (Deuteronomy 6:4) (Psalms 83:18) (Isaiah 42:8) (Galatians 3:20)

Jesus is the Son of God. The expression "Son of God" acknowledges that God is the Creator, or Source, of all life, including that of Jesus. (Psalms 36:9) (Acts 17:28) (Revelation 4:11)

Shakeel said:

Three "persons" with their own jobs as "gods" — three gods.

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The key to understanding the Trinitarian concept is with the use of the concept of "essence" used in the early Church as a carryover from Aristotle and Plato.

sherifgg said:

1.I see that there are quite a few prophecies, but would the majority of people believe Mary based on these prophecies that seem to be specific to certain people? I just wrote in another post why I'm intrigued by this specific question, the Quran chapter retelling this specific story mentions that Jesus spoke in infancy to defend Mary when she was being accused of an illegitimate child, and Jesus defending her was what led people to believe her (although not everyone was still convinced despite that miracle in itself), and I was wondering if there was a different explanation in Christianity as to why people would believe her, since that specific story does not appear to be mentioned.

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As you said, and I would agree with you, that the majority of the people wouldn't believe Mary.

Even Joseph didn't believe it until the angel Gabriel came and set his mind straight, and he was her wife.

However, I like the Berean church when it was said, "and (they) searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."
Acts 17:11 KJV

Why would people believe? That probably isn't as hard as one might think. I'm sure Mary shared the history and, combined with the miracles that Jesus did and all of the fulfilled prophecies, it was just a matter of studying, witnessing, and verifying the specifics and then trusting that it was so. He was born in Bethlehem, check; he came out of Egypt,check; he lineage was from David; check; Of course, I could go on.

Apparently they did believe since it was written as historical record.

But other than what is written, we have no other statements.

sherifgg said:

2. That to me seems like a very unlikely reasoning to explain that they worshiped him that way, as it seems like a stretch to base such a huge conclusion on grammatical/translation points, wouldn't you think it would addressed specifically in more detail in Hebrew scriptures?

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I'm not sure what you are addressing here I think. (my apologies) -

but to take a stab at it -- there isn't nor, apparently, was it purposed to deal with this issue in a specific chapter or book detailing all the nuances to a very specific event. Not to mention, if it was just that one point, then anyone could claim they had a virgin birth. It did start In Genesis 3:15 specifically calling him of the seed of a woman but then God continues to narrow the "who" again and again with other requirements until it would be impossible for it to be fulfilled unless God was involved.

sherifgg said:

Regarding your last statement about understanding God, my belief is that it isn't our job to try to understand God, rather our purpose is to try to worship him correctly.

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OK. I didn't mean it is such a broad sense but rather just understanding the issue that we spoke of. But, for us, God wants a personal relationship with us even as He had a personal relationship with Adam and Eve. We will never fully understand God, He is infinite. But every day can be a new revelation of God.

Worshipping God is an important aspect of our lives.

sherifgg said:

Three "parts" of one, which is still a new concept made after Christianity not taught previously by previous prophets, which was the purpose of my original question.

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Where does Christian teaching speak of 'three parts of one'?

IndigoChild5559 said:

Christians teach that God is one but also three, which may be monotheism, but its a very muddy form of monotheism.

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Where do Christians teach that 'God is one but also three'?

alypius said:

Where do Christians teach that 'God is one but also three'?

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The doctrine of the Trinity was encased in the teachings of the Council of Nicea and other church councils in the 4th century. The idea of one God, three persons, went unquestioned until modern day, when the old forbidden "heresies" began rearising. IOW, when the church split into east and west in 1054, both sides taught the trinity. Later, in the 16th century, when the Protestants broke from Rome and began their endless division into the various denominations, they continued teaching the Trinity. Most churches (even some of the protestant ones) pray in the name of the father, the son, and the holy spirit.

sherifgg said:

I would like to start off my posts by a couple things I was wondering about Christianity and would be interested to hear thoughts regarding this questions.

1) Why did people believe Mary was a virgin and gave birth to Jesus through a miracle? As opposed to people saying she committed adultery which is what most people would normally assume.

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It's a story, if the story says Mary was a virgin and gave birth to Jesus then go along with it. Do you ask questions like this when watching a movie?