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Why would gods use cultural diffusion?

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
Maybe! What if God show God self to all people for all times?


I believe that a Power greater than ourselves is always there, within us and without us, if we are willing and humble enough to search for it honestly.

But our knowledge and experience of that power will always be refracted through our own limited human capacity to understand. This is why awareness of God cannot be apprehended through the use of the intellect alone. The spirit, in effect, has to become a working part of the mind.

Further, any attempt by those who have had them, to describe profound, life changing spiritual experiences, will necessarily be subjective, and framed within the particular time and place in human history, whence they occurred.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
I believe that a Power greater than ourselves is always there, within us and without us, if we are willing and humble enough to search for it honestly.

But our knowledge and experience of that power will always be refracted through our own limited human capacity to understand. This is why awareness of God cannot be apprehended through the use of the intellect alone. The spirit, in effect, has to become a working part of the mind.

Further, any attempt by those who have had them, to describe profound, life changing spiritual experiences, will necessarily be subjective, and framed within the particular time and place in human history, whence they occurred.

That is beautiful. :heart:
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
Many “revealed religions” depend on prophets and holy texts to get their messages out to people: in order to figure out what God wants, you either have to read this holy text or have a class of priests that read the text tell you what the text says.

But this is a form of cultural diffusion: whether or not the text is available to you before the modern world (with printing presses and internet) depends on whether you’re born in the region where the book is in print, whether your culture supports the priest class that can tell you what the text says (such as if you’re illiterate), things like this. Even today, we see religions based on particular texts to be somewhat geographically locked as tends to happen with things (like fashion) that are spread through cultural diffusion.

Why would gods choose such an obviously inefficient way to spread their message, especially if (in some worldviews) that message has infinite consequences?

For instance, for a being with godlike power, it would be trivially easy to just implant whatever knowledge is supposed to be gleaned by the holy text directly into every newborn: then it won’t become region locked, people wouldn’t fight over whose holy text is holiest, people wouldn’t be born in regions that don’t have easy cultural access to the holy text or priest class that reads it, etc. Why not this instead?

At the tower of Babel, God dispersed the various cultures, races, and languages. Perhaps the plan was to wait for mankind to gain sufficient maturity to accept all as God's children (just as God does). If so, we are likely supposed to accept everyone's religion as our own.
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
At the tower of Babel, God dispersed the various cultures, races, and languages. Perhaps the plan was to wait for mankind to gain sufficient maturity to accept all as God's children (just as God does). If so, we are likely supposed to accept everyone's religion as our own.

Isn't this confusing?

Also I'm not sure what you mean by this last sentence: do you mean all people should accept all religions as their own religions? Or do you mean each culture and geographical location should accept their local one? Either way, these lead to contradictions and problems
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
Many “revealed religions” depend on prophets and holy texts to get their messages out to people: in order to figure out what God wants, you either have to read this holy text or have a class of priests that read the text tell you what the text says.

But this is a form of cultural diffusion: whether or not the text is available to you before the modern world (with printing presses and internet) depends on whether you’re born in the region where the book is in print, whether your culture supports the priest class that can tell you what the text says (such as if you’re illiterate), things like this. Even today, we see religions based on particular texts to be somewhat geographically locked as tends to happen with things (like fashion) that are spread through cultural diffusion.

Why would gods choose such an obviously inefficient way to spread their message, especially if (in some worldviews) that message has infinite consequences?

For instance, for a being with godlike power, it would be trivially easy to just implant whatever knowledge is supposed to be gleaned by the holy text directly into every newborn: then it won’t become region locked, people wouldn’t fight over whose holy text is holiest, people wouldn’t be born in regions that don’t have easy cultural access to the holy text or priest class that reads it, etc. Why not this instead?

A thought-provoking premise for a thread MM.

There are religions such as Judaism, Sikhism and Islam where the 'text' in its sacred language - Hebrew, Gurmukhī script and Arabic - is the paramount sacral focus and even given a kind of primordial status (i.e. there's a Jewish belief found in the Mishnah that God looked into the Torah while creating the world—that is, he used it as a blueprint as it were for his creation; Muslims likewise believe the Qur'an is the pre-existent, pre-eternal, uncreated speech of Allah and Sikhs hold their Guru Granth Sahib ji to be infused with the spirit of the eternal Guru). In most branches of Hinduism or Vedanta, the Sanskrit Vedas are also regarded as nitya (eternal and uncreated), in my understanding.

With reference to your cultural diffusion argument, I think it likely does present a challenge to those religions that, in particular, claim to worship a universal and transcendent God who is the conscious agent or ultimate reality behind the entire universe, with (purportedly) a plan / message / divine order to impart to humanity at large.

This method of delivering - or discovering - an 'eternal' (without beginning or end) truth on the part of a prophet or mystic, who then conveys it via his / her contingent literary production, which is limited by its genesis and reception by readers / listeners in a given language with a certain phonetic word order in a script comprehensible only to those fluent and literate in that tongue and at a certain point in time.....yes indeed, I can see why this might all seem like an implausible mode of transmission for a timeless, self-existent and infinite Supreme Being who is omnipresent and sustains the entirety of the cosmos.

There's definitely an issue here, with the truth / revelation / message itself meant to be eternal and imperishable yet its manifestation is certainly not eternal, and actually can be relatively limited in its availability by a variety of linguistic, cultural, educational and geographical barriers.

When it comes to Christianity - and especially traditional Catholic and Orthodox Christianity - I think our approach to this issue is a bit distinct from the other faiths already mentioned. For one, the eternal truth is not associated with the written word so much as with a Person (which the written word testifies to), namely Jesus as God incarnate:


Pope Francis: 'The Word of God Precedes the Bible' (learnreligions.com)


Sacred Scripture is the written testimony of the divine Word, the canonical memory that attests to the event of Revelation. However, the Word of God precedes the Bible and surpasses it. That is why the centre of our faith isn't just a book, but a salvation history and above all a person, Jesus Christ, the Word of God made flesh.

It is precisely because the Word of God embraces and extends beyond Scripture that, in order to properly understand it, the Holy Spirit's constant presence, who guides us "to all truth," is necessary.


Scripture and Tradition


Catholics, on the other hand, recognize that the Bible does not endorse this view and that, in fact, it is repudiated in Scripture. The true "rule of faith"—as expressed in the Bible itself—is Scripture plus apostolic tradition, as manifested in the living teaching authority of the Catholic Church, to which were entrusted the oral teachings of Jesus and the apostles.

Christianity began in Jerusalem when disciples of Jesus of Nazareth proclaimed that he was the expected Messiah, after having a range of allegedly visionary experiences following his execution. From the earliest days, the church regarded itself as the guardian of a developing oral tradition supposedly passed down from these disciples, a portion of which was eventually committed to writing, in Koine Greek, in the form of the New Testament.

This sacred tradition was - and is - flexible and adapted quickly to a multiplicity of languages and cultures, resulting in a startling diversity of liturgical rites, each 'inculturating' the message of the gospel in a different language, with its own unique customs. I think Christianity harvested and acted upon what already existed. And that's because it's not a religion confined by one sacred language or culture.

As the Latin Church Father St. Augustine of Hippo wrote in his mammoth tome, The City of God (413–426 CE):


Philip Schaff: NPNF1-02. St. Augustine's City of God and Christian Doctrine - Christian Classics Ethereal Library


"This heavenly city [the Church], then, while it sojourns on earth, calls citizens out of all nations, and gathers together a society of pilgrims of all languages, not scrupling about diversities in the manners, laws, and institutions whereby earthly peace is secured and maintained, but recognizing that, however various these are, they all tend to one and the same end of earthly peace. It therefore is so far from rescinding and abolishing these diversities, that it even preserves and adopts them." (De civitate Dei Ch. XXV)​


The Anglican scholar, Professor John Barton of Oxford University, explained in relation to the apostolic Tradition:


the earliest Christians perceived the traditions about Jesus as oral…it is well known that many of the Fathers cite sayings not recorded in any existing Gospel, the so-called agrapha. Certainly it is still true for Irenaeus that words of Jesus have an authority which has little to do with whether or not they stand in a written gospel…These traditions are cited as ‘what all Christians know’, not as facts attested by specific documents…Christians who saw things this way agreed in principle with Papias that, ‘I do not think that what was taken from books would profit me so much as what came from the living and abiding voice’’” (John Barton, Holy Writings, Sacred Text p.99).


Moreover, when I read your words in the OP "it would be trivially easy to just implant whatever knowledge is supposed to be gleaned by the holy text directly into every newborn", I'm reminded of our actual doctrine of the semina verbi. The prologue to John's gospel affirms that “the Word [pre-incarnate Jesus] is the true light that enlightens every man coming into the world” (John 1:9):


"We have been taught that Christ is the First-born of God, and…that he is the logos of whom every race of men and women were partakers."


St. Paul likewise informs us of pagans being able to access the 'natural law' of God inhering in every conscience and thus attaining salvation in Christ: "Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the Law, do by nature what the Law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the Law, since they show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness" (Romans 2:14).

And St. John Chrysostom (347-407), Archbishop of Constantinople and an important early church father, addressed this doctrine in his Homily 8 on the Gospel of John, in the context of an exegetical commentary on John 1:9:


CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 8 on the Gospel of John (Chrysostom)


"How then does He [the Word of God] light every man? He lights all as far as in Him lies [...] For the grace is shed forth upon all, turning itself back neither from Jew, nor Greek, nor Barbarian, nor Scythian, nor free, nor bond, nor male, nor female, nor old, nor young, but admitting all alike, and inviting with an equal regard."
 
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Koldo

Outstanding Member
The perfect card would be legible, neat, a little funny, a little sweet. No spelling errors. There would be something personal, maybe an anecdote from the previous year. My postive qualities would be acknowledged. Maybe it would rhyme... etc.

I'm a little surprised you need me to explain what it means for a birthday card to improve year to year. I'm guessing you don't have kids; but, can't you remember what it was like making birthday cards as a child?

Anyways, I suppose you could take the qualities I listed above and improve on them year to year. Imagine a birthday card written by a 3 year old in their pre-school class compared to a birthday card from a 20 year old. If the birthday card didn't improve year to year it would be as if the 20 year old had written it each year. The card wouldn't reflect all the imperfections that happen when a toddler attempts to make a birthday card.

So, what I'm saying is, something would be lost, imo, if the birthday card did not improve year to year and instead looked as if a 20 year old had written it each year. It's fun to see how the writing changes and the complexity changes, how the humor matures, etc... One wouldn't see that if each card was perfect all along, from the very beginning.

What I am saying is: You don't think of being legible, neat, a little funny, a little sweet, legible, no spelling errors, and so on as relevant qualities when it comes down to measure perfection as a whole even though you claim you do.

Why am I saying this? Because you would rather receive a badly written card from your small children rather than a perfectly written one. What does it mean? That being perfectly written is irrelevant, depending on the context at least, when it comes down to birthday cards. What you actually regard as perfection is something else.
 

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
Because nothing can be better than perfection.
Yes, but also nothing would live, grow, getting to know... (if there was only perfection). There would be no potential with actuality, just pure actuality (Actus purus). With other words nothing can be better than God but for us it's better to be imperfect participants in Being than not to be.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
I suggested one possibility. Cultural diffusion has the problem of region locking, texts that can be altered or mistranslated, needs a priest class to disseminate, it’s easy for people to doubt, etc.

Seems a better way would be for God to take the information that God wants people to know from the holy text and instead put it directly into each newborn’s mind.

That removes the problem of region locking, it removes the problem of mistranslations and deciding which books or hadiths or anything like that are canon, it removes the problem of people not knowing which book is genuine, it removes the need for prophets or priest classes whose authenticity can be doubted, etc.

Your suggestion would do that I imagine and God probably has done that with our inbuilt knowledge of good and evil which even Adam and Eve would have had or they could not have sinned.
The important part of that knowledge seems to be to trust God above everything and everyone else.
Even the inbuilt knowledge of good and evil however gets corrupted as we grow.
And of course even if that knowledge has not been corrupted in us we still cannot follow it all the times.
But I guess what you are suggesting is that all babies know the scriptures from birth of whatever religion is correct.
Interesting concept.
In Christianity what God wants us to know is really a person. He wants us to get to know Him and Jesus whom He sent.
This sort of takes time and starts with believing and accepting what He has done and told us.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
But we have already a natural intuition about things. Our brain does not come as a tabula rasa at birth. We have, so to speak, an operating system at birth. We could not survive one second without that.

So, why not a similar native intuition about the true God, too? That would not even cost any rewiring, given our natural predisposition to believe God, Allah, Zeus, the great Juju, Thor, etc. Probably it would even simplify things by removing variants.

Ciao

- viole

In a perfect world that would be great,,,,,,,,,,,,,and will be in the perfect world to come :)
In this world with spiritual opposition to the truth and our desire to choose truth for ourselves and with things happening in the spiritual realm that we have no idea about, God lets us decide for ourselves and then judges us on our choices and actions in life,,,,,,,,,,,,,,or lack thereof.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
The truth imo is that God has given evidence and some people have decided it is lies and not enough.
I'm sure it's all true.

And I guess the equally strong evidence for other religions was just to throw us off from realizing that your religion is the true one, right?
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Why is it more impressive if it leads people to doubt, for instance? Isn’t that the opposite of giving important information?

For instance, the inefficiency of cultural diffusion as a method of information transmission was one of the very first things that led me away from Christianity.

Interestingly Adam and Eve had the information you are suggesting and that did not work and at least part of the reason it did not work was the spiritual opposition they encountered that tricked them and told lies.
Humanity decided to follow our own desires instead of what they know God wanted,,,,,,,,,,,which He had told them. We weakened ourselves and gave even more opportunity for lies and corruption to come in with the knowledge of good and evil and our propensity to take what we wanted.
And the same satan who was there in the garden with A&E is here to help the process along.
Satan became the one we listen to and follow more often than not and I imagine in the spiritual realm it may have been a legitimate take over which had not yet reached the point where God could deal and get rid of the demons.
I would say that humans however have all the information they need to know what He wants from them and they will be judged on what they know and how they acted, knowing what they do.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
What's your opinion on a place like Papua New Guinea, and the role of missionaries there?
It seems like the people indeed did NOT have a basic understanding of a monotheistic God. They were introduced to this, and have since blended their pre-existing beliefs structures, introduced Christian beliefs, and a changing modern world into various localised syncretic beliefs.
The country is 98% Christian at this point, but that's due to deliberate and very active missionary work over many years.

The judgement is going to be imo on our actions and love for each other and probably that would vary depending on the many variables of culture etc that someone has grown up with and learned.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Cultural diffusion does eventually get around, but surely you can agree it's not the most efficient method of information transmission?

Not the best but in theory it could act like the chain reaction in an atomic explosion, or putting one grain of wheat on the first square of a chess board and doubling it up to the 64th square.
The world's population would know in no time.
But of course it does not run that smoothly no doubt.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
In a perfect world that would be great,,,,,,,,,,,,,and will be in the perfect world to come :)
In this world with spiritual opposition to the truth and our desire to choose truth for ourselves and with things happening in the spiritual realm that we have no idea about, God lets us decide for ourselves and then judges us on our choices and actions in life,,,,,,,,,,,,,,or lack thereof.

Decide what, if you lived in a place not reached by the diffusion, yet? And if the judgement, according to whatever metrics will be used by God in absence of Christian knowledge, is fair, what is the use to spread the Gospel at all? So, either God is unfair, or the Gospel is useless.

Ciao

- viole
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
I'm sure it's all true.

And I guess the equally strong evidence for other religions was just to throw us off from realizing that your religion is the true one, right?

Why do you think God gave the information in all religions?
How is the evidence for other religions equal to the evidence for the Bible anyway?
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Decide what, if you lived in a place not reached by the diffusion, yet? And if the judgement, according to whatever metrics will be used by God in absence of Christian knowledge, is fair, what is the use to spread the Gospel at all? So, either God is unfair, or the Gospel is useless.

Ciao

- viole

Imo we will get judged on what we know and if we treat others how we want to be treated, with love. That judgement can be applied to everyone, whether know the gospel of not.
The gospel is sort of a free pass past that judgement and there is something in the New Testament about God choosing those who are saved by the gospel. I prefer to be one of the chosen because I know that my actions are not worth much.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Imo we will get judged on what we know and if we treat others how we want to be treated, with love. That judgement can be applied to everyone, whether know the gospel of not.
Ergo, the value of the Gospel, as a mean to increase salvation odds, is zero.
The gospel is sort of a free pass past that judgement and there is something in the New Testament about God choosing those who are saved by the gospel. I prefer to be one of the chosen because I know that my actions are not worth much.
This is difficult to understand. What do you mean?

Ciao

- viole
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Why do you think God gave the information in all religions?
I don't. I was being sarcastic.

How is the evidence for other religions equal to the evidence for the Bible anyway?
Wait - you were talking about the Bible? I don't generally consider the Bible to be evidence of much. It documents what its authors believed and that's about it.

But since you ask, my yardstick for religious claims is this incident:

Ganesha drinking milk miracle - Wikipedia

It's the best evidence for a god or a religion I've ever come across:

- it happened in my living memory, so no "fog of time" to worry about.

- it was corroborated by many people, so we didn't have to rely on just one hearsay account.

...and even then, it's not that compelling. I certainly didn't become a Hindu because of the "milk miracle." I bet you won't be converting because of it either, right?

... but it serves as a useful benchmark: if a piece of "evidence" for some religion isn't as strong as the "milk miracle," then I can safely disregard it.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
What I am saying is: You don't think of being legible, neat, a little funny, a little sweet, legible, no spelling errors, and so on as relevant qualities when it comes down to measure perfection as a whole even though you claim you do.

Why am I saying this? Because you would rather receive a badly written card from your small children rather than a perfectly written one. What does it mean? That being perfectly written is irrelevant, depending on the context at least, when it comes down to birthday cards. What you actually regard as perfection is something else.
No, it'a actually what I said before: I love the imperfections. The lack of perfection is relevant to me.
 
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