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Hindu-Bahai Gita Discussion

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
Hi @PearlSeeker ,

I do not believe the resurrection and ascension of Jesus literally happened and that perspective is supported by the Baha'i Writings. Most, not all Christians believe Jesus was literally resurrected and ascended to heaven. I don't believe the early Christians believed it because it simply didn't happen. The earliest NT book that refers to the resurrection is Paul's first Epistle to a church in Corinth, thought to be written about 53-54 AD. The earliest Gospel was probably Mark, thought to be written between 66 - 70 AD at the earliest. Paul testifies to having seen the resurrected Jesus though He didn't convert to Christianity until a few years after the 40 days of resurrection appearances of Christ culminating in this Ascension as recorded in Acts of the Apostles 1:9-11. It may well be the Gospel writers intended the resurrection story to be taken as literally true. The experience of the Spirit of Christ in the weeks and months after His crucifixion was as if He had literally returned from the dead. The meaning and power of the resurrection narrative relies on it being written as if literally true.
Yes. Even if it didn't happen the resurrection narrative was meant as literally true. The gospels were probably linked to belief of certain communities... Paul's account was the earliest but he met Jesus only in a vision.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Yes. Even if it didn't happen the resurrection narrative was meant as literally true. The gospels were probably linked to belief of certain communities... Paul's account was the earliest but he met Jesus only in a vision.

I would offer it along the lines that it is truth found in Metaphor. I see we are in an age when we need to decide what is the actual truth told by these stories. Where will we draw a line, if we continue to take stories of faith when science shows another story, faith starts to become obsolete to the masses.

How about the Australian Dream time stories as an example we can ask, "did a literal big snake form the rivers"? etc.

Regards Tony
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
I do not believe the resurrection and ascension of Jesus literally happened and that perspective is supported by the Baha'i Writings. Most, not all Christians believe Jesus was literally resurrected and ascended to heaven. I don't believe the early Christians believed it because it simply didn't happen

Yes. Even if it didn't happen the resurrection narrative was meant as literally true.

I would offer it along the lines that it is truth found in Metaphor
Acts 1 In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach 2 until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen. 3 After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God. 4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”​
Lots of us don't believe the resurrection is true, but... the NT sure makes it sound like it happened. But this is about Hinduism.

With reincarnation, does it start with what is said in the Gita? Or, was it already a belief held by some of the religions in India? And, if so, what Hindu Scriptures was the concept of reincarnation based on?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
We will never find God if we turn to people of this world.

We find God in the Word that was offered and by the example of that life. Those that live a life reflecting those 2 aspects of Faith are indeed One.

All else is of men, who either knowingly or unknowingly, have turned away from God.

All that becomes our journey in life and the choices we make.

Regards Tony
Okay, the "Word" we are discussing is the Gita. What does it teach us about God? Is Krishna an incarnation of God? Are there multiple Gods? If so, then is what is said in the Gita wrong?
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
With reincarnation, does it start with what is said in the Gita? Or, was it already a belief held by some of the religions in India? And, if so, what Hindu Scriptures was the concept of reincarnation based on?

I do not know where the subject of reincarnation started from CG. It is a very ancient tradition.Most likely many scholars have looked at those beginnings.

As to how people choose to see it, that is their choice. Personally, I see we need to consider it along with all the other knowledge we currently have.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Okay, the "Word" we are discussing is the Gita. What does it teach us about God? Is Krishna an incarnation of God? Are there multiple Gods? If so, then is what is said in the Gita wrong?

Another big question CG. In a nutshell the Gita tells how to live our life, as I see all scriptures do.

Where does it all go wrong? To me that is when men make up their own ideas as to what was said in a Message and then make those ideas fit with their fallible and relative understandings, and then turn it all into infallible knowledge.

Regards Tony
 

ajay0

Well-Known Member
Well, I can say exactly the same about you. Obviously, what you state is in tune with Hindu beliefs, without a hint of agnosticism.

For me , reincarnation is a fact because of a very large body of credible evidence available to me both from eastern and western sources.

I know of my own past lives, so the question of agnosticism does not arise for me anymore naturally. It is an experiential and intellectual understanding for me and also have been of great utility to me practically as well, in bringing more postivity and knowledge to my life.

As previously stated, I'm prepared to explore reincarnation with you. I would prefer if this was started in another thread that allows for debate and we are focusing more specifically on the reincarnation. However, because the belief in reincarnation is a significant point of difference between many Hindus and Baha'is and contributes to us interpreting the Bhagavad Gita differently, I'm prepared to to discuss it here..

See, one should be attached to the truth, not Hindu or Bahai beliefs.

My understanding of reincarnation gravitates me to the Dharmic religions, but I am also ready to criticize these faiths and make them open to new modes of knowledge and action and get rid of obsolete ones.


Belief may also be true or not. There is insufficient evidence to determine whether our beliefs are true. I would consider the existence of night and day based on the movement of the earth and sun as being factual. I would consider many religious beliefs to lack the same standard of proof as facts. That includes not just the belief in reincarnation but also some of my beliefs such as the existence of an eternal soul, the existence of One God and indeed whether or not any of the people Baha'is consider Manifestations of God, are indeed Manifestations of God. The lack of sufficient evidence does not disprove them. It means we can not be certain about whether or not they are in true in the same way as established facts. So in regards all these matters, I'm agnostic and base my beliefs on faith..

I do not base my beliefs on faith but evidence and proofs.

I was an atheist and rationalist who did not believe in reincarnation. But when I got evidence and proofs I revised my attitudes towards the same.

It would have been dishonest and impractical on my part to reject it out of former habit or conditioning or peer pressure.

Often in religious debate forums I see religious adherents presenting their beliefs as facts. Is that your approach with reincarnation? Is reincarnation a fact for you or a belief?.

Not at all. As I stated earlier, I don't go by faith but by proofs, evidences.

I have offered criticism to the Dharmic faiths as well.

We can not be certain that Krishna even existed let alone He taught reincarnation. I believe Krishna did exist. We have no way of establishing for certain whether the Bhagavad Gita reflects the actual words Krishna spoke. Guatama certainly has a stronger historical basis for establishing He was a real person.

Krishna's words were recorded by Vyasa who lived in the same time as Krishna, and Krishna's life is represented in the Srimad Bhagavatham as well as Mahabharatha, and both are huge epics which takes a certain amount of time to read and comprehend.

Krishna's birthday is celebrated every year for milleniums.

Krishna united various practices into a systematic and integral whole at that time, and this is reflected in the Gita. This ended conflict between them to a large extent which were prevalent then.

Even if Krishna did not exist , the teachings in the Gita are of utility in itself as a form of philosophy and methodology .

Guatama certainly has a stronger historical basis for establishing He was a real person. We can not with any certainty, attribute any of the Buddhist Canon to the actual words of Guatama Buddha.

Faith is not important in Buddhism as well, but experiential understanding is.


'O monks and wise men, just as a goldsmith would test his gold by burning, cutting and rubbing it, so must you examine my words and accept them, not merely out of reverence for me.' ~ Buddha


You can see here Buddha emphasizing experiential understanding for oneself and not merely blind belief and faith in what he says.

In the Gita too, Krishna emphasizes Vaada or logical discussion and inquiry to arrive at the truth over other means .

In the field of argument and logic, jalpa means to find fault with the opponent’s statements, for the sake of establishing one’s own opinion. Vitanda means to avoid proper deliberation on the truth through evasion and frivolous arguments. Vada is the logical conclusion of the discussion. Logic is the basis for communication of ideas and establishment of truths. ~ Swami Mukundananda

Chapter 10, Verse 32 – Bhagavad Gita, The Song of God – Swami Mukundananda




You may want to review your historical knowledge of Australasia (Australia and New Zealand).

I am well aware of the history of Australasia and have educated others too on the matter.

When I found an Australian speaking ill and harshly on the refugees from an another formerly prosperous nation tragically affected by civil strife, I reminded him of the convicts and poverty-strickent immigrants escaping feudalism, who migrated from Britain to Australia. Many had died on the sea journey itself due to callous government apathy and indifference.

Many of these early settlers died in Australia during the early stages due to lack of self-sufficiency in necessary life skills and harsh conditions around, and it was only later on after much hardship that things turned around.

When I pointed out these facts to the Australian, he reduced his harsh tone on the refugees considerably and hopefully he would be more sensitive to suffering of humanity worldwide through this understanding.

History of Australia - Wikipedia

British settlement begins in Australia

They are both well developed countries with effective health systems whose health professionals are familiar with international literature. We are closely allied with Europe and North America..

They have reached prosperity in a generation or two after laborious efforts in a harsh, isolated region, which is remarkable, but they cannot be called an ancient civilization like the Greek or Indian or Egyptian or Babylonian or Jewish.

Reincarnation isn't an established fact anywhere within Western Health systems. There are always those within the profession who use their status to promote their personal ideologies. That is very different from reincarnation being endorsed by any professional medical body..

For Dr. Brian Weiss, who is of atheist-Jewish affiliation in the beginning, he was also highly surprised encountering past life descriptions of his patients under hypnotic regression, and researched the same extensively in his library.

For most of the time, Weiss did not talk about his findings in reincarnation as he was concerned about damage to his reputation, as he was a well-established and respected person in the psychiatric field.

He eventually felt it would be dishonest on his part to be secretive about it, and eventually wrote a book on his findings. He had in the beginning felt that even if a single person benefited from the books, it would be beneficial to him and even gave the books to bookstores personally in a rented van.

However the book (Many Lives, Many Masters ) became a best-seller and its success encouraged him to write few more books on the subject.

I read the book around a decade back, and gifted it to many of my friends.

Here you can see that it was not personal ideology that prompted Dr.Weiss to author these books on reincarnation as he affiliated with atheism and Jewish culture, where reincarnation is not taught.


The mainstream Hindu and Buddhist perspectives differ considerably in regards beliefs about the nature of the soul and whether it is eternal. The different worldviews can be linked to concepts such as karma, dharma and moksha of course.

These, eternality of the soul or not, are just some points of philosophical differences. Many Hindus study Buddhist philosophy as well to finetune their understanding and Hindu masters like Sivananda had endorsed study of buddhist philosophy along with Hindu philosophies. Buddha is also revered as an Avatar by Vaishnavite sects.

Sree Narayan Guru incorporated many Buddhist teachings in his own philosophical system and advocated their adherence to his disciples and lay followers.

Vivekananda created the practice in the Ramakrishna Mission of initiating monks before a statue of the Buddha.

Karma, dharma and moksha/nirvana are commonalities of all dharmic religions.



As previously expressed, I am an agnostic about reincarnation. Although I don’t believe in it, I acknowledge the possibility it may be true..

I thank you for this statement.
 
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ajay0

Well-Known Member
Unfortunately I can not view that article through the link provided..

Upon googling the headline 'Remembrances of Lives Past' , you can find the complete article by New York times.

The belief in reincarnation isn’t a new theory. Its been around a long time.

Yes, if you do your research, you can see that it was a part of the native belief sysyems of many european and world cultures, and was also a belief system of gnostic christian sects before it was denounced as heresy by the councils of nicea and constantinople in the fourth century A.D.

Origen is said to have taught reincarnation in his lifetime and it is alleged that when his works were translated into Latin these references were deliberately concealed.

In India it is linked to the caste system which appears discriminatory and unjust.

The Vedic teachings emphasize the equality and fraternity of all human beings. Most of the sages belonged to the lower occupational groups.

The caste system was a later social invention similar to feudalism in europe and japan, which came up as a social custom from the smritis.

The smritis, or man-made laws and customs regulating society, can and ought to be modified with changing times and circumstances for material progress in line with new methods and innovations. Negligence in this regard is the cause for deterioration in material standards.

India's and Hindu society's negligence in this regard paved the way for its material and political regression and vulnerability to foreign invasions.

There were indeed reformatory sects like the Lingayats, Brahmo Samajis, Arya Samajis which helped to bring about much needed reforms in this regard and effect a renaissance but they were not adequate and vigorous enough to stem the rot in the first place or dynamic enough to prevent it..

Therefore when Hindus talk about being able to perceive the past lives of themselves and others, I don’t trust them.

There are also Hindu sects like the Arya Samaj, Kabir Panthis, Prajapita Brahmakumaris who teach belief in reincarnation while at the same time proclaiming the equality and fraternity of all human beings.

The Arya Samaj is based on the Vedic teachings solely, and reject practices like casteism as unvedic.

Reincarnation is also there as a teaching in the other Dharmic religions like Jainism and Sikhism which does not have a caste system.

In Buddhism, as I explained, there is no belief in a permanent soul but it maintains that there is a stream of constantly changing consciousness and Sankharas or psychological impresssions and this is what undergoes rebirth.

You can see the Dalai Lama talking about rebirth and of Lamas travelling all over the world in seach of their fellow monks who have been reborn in different parts of the world.

The theosophical society of western origin founded by Helena Blavatsky also uphelds belief in reincarnation.


I don’t believe a Just and Loving God would create such system and belief the caste system.

The caste system is a social, man-made, feudal system and does not have basis in the Vedas or God's teachings.

Later non-vedic scriptures like the Mahabharatha also have emphasized these vedic dictums.

“Neither birth nor sacraments nor study nor ancestry can decide whether a person is twice-born (i.e., a Brahmin); character and conduct only can decide.” ~ Mahabharatha
 
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rational experiences

Veteran Member
As a thinker when I knew I owned my own person. .my human parents had sex I was a baby. Now an adult.

Everyone dies.

Science who owned the formula how to get energy says I transform mass. It converts by destruction. Transforms.

I knew bodies decompose and living microbes use our body for food after. The life cycle.

So when humans preached a part of us transformed science says death and decomposition.

I thought okay spiritual humans are convinced a part of our life is left.

Thought about conditions like any theist can.

Realised by psychic proof the living human gets life recorded continually completely by solving crimes seeing visions.

Machines owned recording of every body animate inanimate. Transmitted image from machine to machine with voice.

I am not a machine or machine components.

As water is reflective I understood why it occurred as all form had been water saved by substance.

So we knew life mainly water was powerful and necessary.

Hence science should never alter holy water.

Pretty basic advice.

So father who I never believed in spoke to me when I nearly died. So I learnt okay you are real.

He taught me how the real eternal beings use human atmospheric life records to speak to us. After human death.

Which I pondered how a baby who dies arrives visiting in image as an adult. Realisiing adults owned eternal being.

Made sense then.

When you realise the one spirit communicating to us that had never left.

Creation was now sitting in its womb.

So it made sense that humans said the God that had created lost God from its eternal form and sent us out of its body also as the eternal.

And when we die we always owned one self never corrupted by creation.

As it had proven it's recorded moment with father as he came out of it first. Mother our human life body owner babies taught us the eternal was real.

Only because of human conditions supporting allowing the wisdom.

So if science said how did I know so much about God in creation. Reason. We were still in the eternal form ourselves that had sent God out of its body. Of course you would own higher perception.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Acts 1 In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach 2 until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen. 3 After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God. 4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”​
Lots of us don't believe the resurrection is true, but... the NT sure makes it sound like it happened. But this is about Hinduism.

With reincarnation, does it start with what is said in the Gita? Or, was it already a belief held by some of the religions in India? And, if so, what Hindu Scriptures was the concept of reincarnation based on?

According to Wikipedia's site on reincarnation, the concept developed around 1100 - 500 BC

"The idea of reincarnation, saṃsāra, did not exist in the early Vedic religions.[32][33] The idea of reincarnation has roots in the Upanishads of the late Vedic period (c. 1100 – c. 500 BCE), predating the Buddha and the Mahavira.[34][35] The concepts of the cycle of birth and death, samsara, and liberation partly derive from ascetic traditions that arose in India around the middle of the 1st millennium BCE.[36] Though no direct evidence of this has been found, the tribes of the Ganges valley or the Dravidian traditions of South India have been proposed as another early source of reincarnation beliefs.[37]"

"The early Vedas do not mention the doctrine of Karma and rebirth but mention the belief in an afterlife.[38][3][39][40] It is in the early Upanishads, which are pre-Buddha and pre-Mahavira, where these ideas are developed and described in a general way.[38][41][42] Detailed descriptions first appear around the mid-1st millennium BCE in diverse traditions, including Buddhism, Jainism and various schools of Hindu philosophy, each of which gave unique expression to the general principle.[3]"
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
According to Wikipedia's site on reincarnation, the concept developed around 1100 - 500 BC

"The idea of reincarnation, saṃsāra, did not exist in the early Vedic religions.[32][33] The idea of reincarnation has roots in the Upanishads of the late Vedic period (c. 1100 – c. 500 BCE), predating the Buddha and the Mahavira.[34][35] The concepts of the cycle of birth and death, samsara, and liberation partly derive from ascetic traditions that arose in India around the middle of the 1st millennium BCE.[36] Though no direct evidence of this has been found, the tribes of the Ganges valley or the Dravidian traditions of South India have been proposed as another early source of reincarnation beliefs.[37]"

"The early Vedas do not mention the doctrine of Karma and rebirth but mention the belief in an afterlife.[38][3][39][40] It is in the early Upanishads, which are pre-Buddha and pre-Mahavira, where these ideas are developed and described in a general way.[38][41][42] Detailed descriptions first appear around the mid-1st millennium BCE in diverse traditions, including Buddhism, Jainism and various schools of Hindu philosophy, each of which gave unique expression to the general principle.[3]"
And how do Baha'is take the Upanishads? From one of God's manifestations or religious teachings from ordinary people? Then, what about Buddha and reincarnation? And what do Baha'is believe about any of the Buddhist Scriptures?

Then there is the Gita? Word of God or something some people wrote? Since Baha'is don't believe in reincarnation, then, even if some manifestation wrote any of the ancient Hindu Scriptures, then what? Do Baha'is believe that ordinary people somewhere along the line added in teachings about reincarnation?
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
And how do Baha'is take the Upanishads? From one of God's manifestations or religious teachings from ordinary people? Then, what about Buddha and reincarnation? And what do Baha'is believe about any of the Buddhist Scriptures?

Then there is the Gita? Word of God or something some people wrote? Since Baha'is don't believe in reincarnation, then, even if some manifestation wrote any of the ancient Hindu Scriptures, then what? Do Baha'is believe that ordinary people somewhere along the line added in teachings about reincarnation?

And what about Mahavira, considered the equivalent of Buddha?
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
And how do Baha'is take the Upanishads?

We have no way of knowing if any of the Hindu scriptures are authentic. It is a matter of personal study and reflection.

From one of God's manifestations or religious teachings from ordinary people?

We can't possibly know for certain.

Then, what about Buddha and reincarnation?

Reincarnation is very different in mainstream Buddhism compared to Hinduism due to the non existence of the soul (atman).

And what do Baha'is believe about any of the Buddhist Scriptures?

We have no way of knowing whether they are authentic teachings of the Buddha. Once again, it's a matter of personal study and reflection.

Then there is the Gita? Word of God or something some people wrote?

It is up to each of us to investigate for ourselves. There isn't a Baha'i position on it. Like so many things, Baha'is must investigate for themselves rather than blindly rely on the opinions of others.

Since Baha'is don't believe in reincarnation, then, even if some manifestation wrote any of the ancient Hindu Scriptures, then what?

Viewing the discourse between Krishna and Arjuna as at least part allegorical makes sense.

Do Baha'is believe that ordinary people somewhere along the line added in teachings about reincarnation?

Most Baha'is I know haven't studied Hinduism in depth so wouldn't have an opinion. I personally believe as some scholars, that reincarnation as an ideology emerged between 1100 and 500 BC. I believe it to be an allegorical theological narrative that can help us understand the nature of the soul and progress through the worlds of God beyond this world. In that regard it has a similar purpose to the resurrection narrative in Christianity. Of course that is just my opinion. There is no official Baha'i position on the origins of the reincarnation narrative in Hinduism.

And what about Mahavira, considered the equivalent of Buddha?

The Baha'i writings are silent on Mahavira. It is a matter of personal study to answer this question. I don't have an opinion.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
Then, what about Buddha and reincarnation? And what do Baha'is believe about any of the Buddhist Scriptures?
In my opinion there are way too many Buddhist scriptures to have come from the Buddha, some of which contradict each other. I suspect some were made up much like some of Paul's letters were made up by anonymous writers who wanted their ideas to come under the banner of Paul.

Here's a sample of what someone says online:

However, no one really knows if these scriptures authentically represent the Buddha’s actual teachings. A sense of the immensity of this problem of scriptural authenticity can be gleaned from the awareness that the discourses alone (the sutta pitaka), which are broken down into five collections (nikayas) — the long (digha), middle-length (majjhima), connected subjects (samyutta), numerical (anguttara) and minor (khuddaka) nikayas — which add up to many thousands of pages, much longer than the Christian Bible, taking up at least 50 volumes in modern editions. Scholars agree that such a large volume of material could not be orally transmitted for hundreds of years without error before being written down.

Nevertheless, some of the Buddha’s teachings were originally transmitted in numbered oral structures that facilitated memorization and repetition. For example, Buddhists have:

  • One dharma: the eternal and inherent nature of reality, and the path Buddha taught.
  • Two pathways: one for lay-people and one for monks.
  • Three baskets of scripture: one for the rules for monks, one for the discourses, and one commentary (the Abhidhamma).
  • Three dharma seals: the teachings on impermanence, non-self, and nirvana.
  • Four noble truths: life is full of suffering, the cause is attachment, suffering can end, the end to suffering is the way prescribed by the Buddha.

There are also five mental formations (contact, attention, feeling, perception, and volition) and five remembrances; six types of consciousness, seven factors of enlightenment, an eightfold path, twelve links of dependent origination, 18 realms (dhatus) and many, many other associations built on numerical patterns.

So, through these condensations of his teachings into simple numeric form, we have reason to believe that many of the basics of the Buddha’s teachings have been preserved.

I want to make clear that this person is talking about the earliest Buddhist scriptures written down. There is a later series of texts called Mahayana texts, which are not necessarily devoid of truths taught by the Buddha.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
You have to do that in Hinduism because of the nature of Hinduism, with different contradctory texts. One believes in certain texts experientally and pick and choose. We have texts that support one another, though one has to think carefully sometimes, and we have texts that were written down, whereas your stuff is oral.

It doesn't surprise me that Hinduism is experiental then. There is also an element of experiental in Baha'i also, but the experience has to support the Baha'i texts, it can illumine what the texts mean or we have to quit being a Baha'i, or limp along half-believing in Baha'i with no real conviction in it.

We live in totally different situations.
Whether something is oral or written down has no relevance to this. The Vedic scriptures are one of the most perfectly preserved set of scriptures in the world because of the way the oral tradition of transmission was developed to ensure high fidelity. This is something that historians agree with as well.
The oral tradition of the Vedas (Śruti) consists of several pathas, "recitations" or ways of chanting the Vedic mantras. Such traditions of Vedic chant are often considered the oldest unbroken oral tradition in existence, the fixation of the Vedic texts (samhitas) as preserved dating to roughly the time of Homer (early Iron Age).[1]

UNESCO proclaimed the tradition of Vedic chant a Masterpiece of the Oral and Intangible Heritage of Humanity on November 7, 2008. Wayne Howard noted in the preface of his book, Veda Recitation in Varanasi, "The four Vedas (Rig, Yajur, Sama and Atharva) are not 'books' in the usual sense, though within the past hundred years each veda has appeared in several printed editions. They comprise rather tonally accented verses and hypnotic, abstruse melodies whose proper realizations demand oral instead of visual transmission. They are robbed of their essence when transferred to paper, for without the human element the innumerable nuances and fine intonations – inseparable and necessary components of all four compilations – are lost completely. The ultimate authority in Vedic matters is never the printed page but rather the few members – who are today keeping the centuries-old traditions alive.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedic_chant

Prodigious energy was expended by ancient Indian culture in ensuring that these texts were transmitted from generation to generation with inordinate fidelity.[1][7] Many forms of recitation or pathas were designed to aid accuracy in recitation and the transmission of the Vedas and other knowledge texts from one generation to the next. All hymns in each Veda were recited in this way; for example, all 1,028 hymns with 10,600 verses of the Rigveda was preserved in this way. Each text was recited in a number of ways, to ensure that the different methods of recitation acted as a cross check on the other. Pierre-Sylvain Filliozat summarizes this as follows:[8]

  • Samhita-patha: continuous recitation of Sanskrit words bound by the phonetic rules of euphonic combination;
  • Pada-patha: a recitation marked by a conscious pause after every word, and after any special grammatical codes embedded inside the text; this method suppresses euphonic combination and restores each word in its original intended form;
  • Krama-patha: a step-by-step recitation where euphonically-combined words are paired successively and sequentially and then recited; for example, a hymn "word1 word2 word3 word4 ...", would be recited as "word1word2 word2word3 word3word4 ..."; this method to verify accuracy is credited to Vedic sages Gargya and Sakalya in the Hindu tradition and mentioned by the ancient Sanskrit grammarian Pāṇini (dated to pre-Buddhism period);
  • Krama-patha modified: the same step-by-step recitation as above, but without euphonic-combinations (or free form of each word); this method to verify accuracy is credited to Vedic sages Babhravya and Galava in the Hindu tradition, and is also mentioned by the ancient Sanskrit grammarian Panini;
  • Jata-pāṭha, dhvaja-pāṭha and ghana-pāṭha are methods of recitation of a text and its oral transmission that developed after 5th century BCE, that is after the start of Buddhism and Jainism; these methods use more complicated rules of combination and were less used.
These extraordinary retention techniques guaranteed the most perfect canon not just in terms of unaltered word order but also in terms of sound.[9] That these methods have been effective, is testified to by the preservation of the most ancient Indian religious text, the Ṛgveda
I would consider Hindu scriptures to be more reliable than almost anything else in the world. Even a print edition of Harry Potter will contain a few typos that distinguish it from another edition...Rig Veda will not have it. The reason why only certain Brahmin lineages were allowed to recite certain parts and no other is because even tonality and accent had to be preserved and if you are not immersed in the recitation since birth, your accent and tonality will change.
Thus the argument is not whether the scripture is reliable (it is) but rather if it is the best or primary way to access God. There major developments in Hindu experience and thought have said, no it is not.
In a sense we find this entire argument about reliability of scriptures handed down by "prophets" as quaint and retrograde. Its like fighting over the which the "original" portrait of Mount Everest when you can directly go and see the mountain yourself and click photos yourself.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
Don't want to debate this. Have it your way. Don't like to debate, though I do that sometimes. I do that less now. Surprised this was brought up after a couple of months.
 
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