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What is stupidity?

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Why some of the smartest people can be so very stupid | Psyche Ideas

I came across this article and it looked somewhat interesting.

A few years before he died in exile from Nazism, the Austrian novelist Robert Musil delivered a lecture in Vienna, ‘On Stupidity’ (1937). At its heart was the idea that stupidity was not mere ‘dumbness’, not a brute lack of processing power. Dumbness, for Musil, was ‘straightforward’, indeed almost ‘honourable’. Stupidity was something very different and much more dangerous: dangerous precisely because some of the smartest people, the least dumb, were often the most stupid.

Musil’s lecture bequeaths us an important set of questions. What exactly is stupidity? How does it relate to morality: can you be morally good and stupid, for example? How does it relate to vice: is stupidity a kind of prejudice, perhaps? And why is it so domain-specific: why are people often stupid in one area and insightful in another? Musil’s own answer, which centred around pretentiousness, is too focused on the dilettantism of interwar Vienna to serve us now. But his questions, and his intuition about stupidity’s danger, are as relevant as ever.

What exactly is stupidity?

How does it relate to morality: can you be morally good and stupid, for example?

How does it relate to vice: is stupidity a kind of prejudice, perhaps?

And why is it so domain-specific: why are people often stupid in one area and insightful in another?

That last question is rather interesting, because some people can be brilliant in some areas but incredibly stupid in others.

Stupidity is a very specific cognitive failing. Crudely put, it occurs when you don’t have the right conceptual tools for the job. The result is an inability to make sense of what is happening and a resulting tendency to force phenomena into crude, distorting pigeonholes.

The writer then goes on to describe the thinking of generals during WW1 and how they perceived trench warfare:

This is easiest to introduce with a tragic case. British high command during the First World War frequently understood trench warfare using concepts and strategies from the cavalry battles of their youth. As one of Field Marshal Douglas Haig’s subordinates later remarked, they thought of the trenches as ‘mobile operations at the halt’: ie, as fluid battle lines with the simple caveat that nothing in fact budged for years. Unsurprisingly, this did not serve them well in formulating a strategy: they were hampered, beyond the shortage of material resources, by a kind of ‘conceptual obsolescence’, a failure to update their cognitive tools to fit the task in hand.

"Conceptual obsolescence" appears to relate to old fashioned or outmoded ways of thinking, or as the writer put it, "a failure to update their cognitive tools to fit the task in hand."

Stupidity will often arise in cases like this, when an outdated conceptual framework is forced into service, mangling the user’s grip on some new phenomenon. It is important to distinguish this from mere error. We make mistakes for all kinds of reasons. Stupidity is rather one specific and stubborn cause of error. Historically, philosophers have worried a great deal about the irrationality of not taking the available means to my goals: Tom wants to get fit, yet his running shoes are quietly gathering dust. The stock solution to Tom’s quandary is simple willpower. Stupidity is very different from this. It is rather a lack of the necessary means, a lack of the necessary intellectual equipment. Combatting it will typically require not brute willpower but the construction of a new way of seeing our self and our world.

The writer makes a distinction between mere error and stupidity. They also indicate a difference between stupidity and what might be more accurately characterized as a lack of willpower. Stupidity indicates a lack of the necessary intellectual equipment, in which combatting it will typically require not brute willpower but the construction of a new way of seeing our self and our world.

I found this part interesting in light of several recent related discussions, particularly in the political realm where people may speak of their opponents as "stupid" or "uneducated" or "lacking in critical thinking skills." But I've always considered those explanations and characterizations as somewhat wanting and insufficient. This article suggests that stupidity relates to a lack of mental flexibility, an inability to think outside the box and look at the world in different terms.

The writer also notes that stupidity is a property of groups or traditions, not individuals, which is also an important distinction to make:

Stupidity has two features that make it particularly dangerous when compared with other vices. First, unlike character flaws, stupidity is primarily a property of groups or traditions, not individuals: after all, we get most of our concepts, our mental tools, from the society we are raised in.

Suppose the problem with Haig had been laziness: there was no shortage of energetic generals to replace him. But if Haig worked himself to the bone within the intellectual prison of the 19th-century military tradition, then solving the difficulty becomes harder: you will need to introduce a new conceptual framework and establish a sense of identity and military pride for it. Once stupidity has taken hold of a group or society, it is thus particularly hard to eradicate – inventing, distributing and normalising new concepts is tough work.

I found this also interesting, as stupidity is described as taking hold of groups or societies. This would also challenge the notion that it's due to an individual's lack of education or critical thinking skills, since those individualistic characterizations. The article is addressing examples of collective stupidity, perhaps due to fears of non-conformity or active peer pressure to conform to a specific set of ideas.

I'm reminded of the Asch Conformity Experiments (Asch conformity experiments - Wikipedia), which demonstrated that peer pressure can very much influence otherwise intelligent, educated people to make stupid choices.

Second, stupidity begets more stupidity due to a profound ambiguity in its nature. If stupidity is a matter of the wrong tools for the job, whether an action is stupid will depend on what the job is; just as a hammer is perfect for some tasks and wrong for others. Take politics, where stupidity is particularly catching: a stupid slogan chimes with a stupid voter, it mirrors the way they see the world. The result is that stupidity can, ironically, be extremely effective in the right environment: a kind of incapacity is in effect being selected for. It is vital to separate this point from familiar and condescending claims about how dumb or uneducated the ‘other side’ are: stupidity is compatible with high educational achievement, and it is more the property of a political culture than of the individuals in it, needing to be tackled at that level.

Musil’s indulgent, almost patrician, attitude to ‘honourable’ dumbness was certainly dangerously complacent: consider its role in the anti-vax phenomenon. But dumbness alone is rarely the driving threat: at the head of almost every dumb movement, you will find the stupid in charge.

We can now explain why stupidity is so domain-specific, why someone can be so smart in one area, and such an idiot in another: the relevant concepts are often domain-specific. Furthermore, we can see that there will be many cases that aren’t fully fledged stupidity but that mimic its effects. Imagine someone who had been blind to all evidence that they were being cheated on finally asking themselves ‘How could you be so stupid?’ Here the problem is not pure stupidity: the concept of a cheat is common enough. What we have here is rather someone ‘acting as if they were stupid’. It’s not just that they failed to apply the concept of betrayal, but that they literally didn’t think of it: it was effectively ‘offline’, due to emotional and other pressures. In this kind of case, agents possess the necessary intellectual tools but unwittingly lock them away. This marks an important contrast with dumbness – we can make ourselves stupid, but we don’t make ourselves dumb.

It's an interesting example to use, of someone not realizing they were being cheated on: They literally didn't think of it, due to emotional and other pressures. They possess the intellectual tools, but unwittingly lock them away.

So stupidity is tough to fix. This is exacerbated by the way it dovetails with other vices: stubbornness stops me from revisiting my concepts even as they fail me. But once we understand stupidity’s nature, things are a little brighter than they might seem. To view political opponents as primarily cynical transforms them into Machiavellian monsters, leaving no space for anything but a zero-sum battle for domination. To view political opponents as primarily dumb is to suggest an irreparable flaw – one that, in our deeply hierarchical society, we often project on to those without the ‘right’ educational credentials. Both moves also offer a certain false reassurance: with a bit of reflection, we can be fairly sure that we are not cynical and, with the right credentials, we can prove that we are not dumb. But we might well, nevertheless, be caught in the net of stupidity. If history is anything to go by, a few hundred years from now, our descendants will find at least one part of contemporary morality almost unintelligible – ‘How could decent people ever have believed that?’ If they are not to condemn us as evil, they might well have to conclude that we were stupid.

This is an interesting point. Are people who are considered smart today going to be considered stupid hundreds of years from now?

In a way, this article seems to touch upon some of the core problems in politics today. I hear a lot of people talk about stupidity and ignorance of the masses, suggesting that the only real solution is to send people back to school. But then, the educational system is often criticized as having a role in making people stupid. Then there's also peer pressure and a push to conform - often peppered with ridicule, hostility, and other emotionally-laden tactics.

Do you agree with the points raised in the article? What is stupidity, anyway? How does it manifest itself? What is the cure?

They say "you can't fix stupid," but that would suggest an irreparably flawed individual who can't be cured.

On the subject of military stupidity, some might also point to the U.S. unpreparedness regarding Pearl Harbor, bolstered by the unfounded belief that Pearl Harbor could not be attacked by air. Or the belief that the Japanese would not attack us. On the other hand, the Japanese might have been stupid to believe that a bloody nose at Pearl Harbor would cause the Americans to fold up and give in to Japanese demands. The Vietnam War, the War on Drugs, and the War on Terror might be similar examples of collective stupidity.

Just curious what others might think of this topic.

 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
When I worked security on a hospital campus after the military, I came across doctors that had trouble figuring out the gate. It looked stupid but my thoughts were the brain was so full of medical knowledge, there wasn't any free space left in the hard drive. *grin*
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
When I worked security on a hospital campus after the military, I came across doctors that had trouble figuring out the gate. It looked stupid but my thoughts were the brain was so full of medical knowledge, there wasn't any free space left in the hard drive. *grin*

Well, there's the old trope about intellectuals being somewhat inept when it comes to some of the more mundane aspects of life. Or maybe an absent-minded professor type.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Stupidity. An interesting topic.

The first thing I think it is important to do is to try to figure out what it is not -- and the first thing I think does not count as "stupidity" is ignorance. Because one may be ignorant of the facts or lack knowledge in one or more areas should not be counted as stupidity. After all, such a person may have already learned much about other topics, and be perfectly capable of learning about new ones -- given the opportunity and possessing the interest.

I think that for a thought or action to qualify as stupid, it must be informed (the mind must be capable of knowing that the action can't be correct for some reason or other), it must be deliberate (in spite of being informed), and it must be maladaptive (it must in some way not be in the best interest of the actor).
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Interesting thread.

I'm reminded of the William Blake quote "The fool who persists in his folly will become wise."

I think that fool reference applies. Sooner or later, often much too late, learning occurs. I don't have an answer about how to speed up the learning so it does not happen too late.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
When I was in grad school, we identified a certain category of people as 'aggressively ignorant'.

These were people who were not simply ignorant (the whole job of teaching is to take ignorant people and make them less so), but who were resentful of any attempt to educate them. Anything not in line with their previous biases was seen as harmful and dangerous.

And, like the OP, it was possible to be quite smart in one subject while aggressively ignorant in another.

Now, this doesn't quite describe the general in the OP, but I do think of it as another form of stupidity.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
When I was in grad school, we identified a certain category of people as 'aggressively ignorant'.

These were people who were not simply ignorant (the whole job of teaching is to take ignorant people and make them less so), but who were resentful of any attempt to educate them. Anything not in line with their previous biases was seen as harmful and dangerous.

And, like the OP, it was possible to be quite smart in one subject while aggressively ignorant in another.

Now, this doesn't quite describe the general in the OP, but I do think of it as another form of stupidity.

Well, it could be a variant of Dunning–Kruger.

It could also be tied to cognitive dissonance and further an effect of learning something new that doesn't match what is already learned. That doesn't always come natural.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
To be ignorant due to a lack of knowledge is one thing; to be ignorant due to a willful rejection of knowledge is something else. Stupid people willfully reject knowledge. They choose not to seek it out, and if it's brought to them, they will dismiss it; mostly based on the dictates of their own ego. For them, feeling righteous is more important than being right.

George W. Bush is a good example of a truly stupid man. He would stand in front of a group of reporters that clearly understood the subject at hand far better than he did, and look at them, and speak to them as if they were naive children. EVERYONE in the room understood perfectly well that the only real idiot in the room was George W. Bush, himself. And yet he was completely oblivious of this, and fully convinced that he was by far the smartest man in the room. So much so that he'd talk down to them with an exaggerated air of condescension and incredulousness. It was absurd to watch.

That kind of stupidity comes from a lifetime of ignoring the wisdom, insight, and intelligence that other people brought to any intellectual interaction so that he could feel safe and secure in the delusion that he wasn't in any way 'lacking'. The ego demanded it, and he complied. Which is exactly what made him so stupid. It wasn't that he couldn't learn. It was that he wouldn't accept the idea that he needed to.

And there are a lot of people like him, out there in the world.
 
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Jose Fly

Fisker of men
A lot of what some folks think of as "stupidity" is better described as "lack of experience". For example, the physics professor not being able to open the gate is likely better attributed to their lack of experience with opening that specific gate, rather than being too "stupid" to figure it out.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Tough question. As a former teacher, it's definitely a politically incorrect word to toss around. That being said, some kids struggled with learning more than others; that much was obvious. Very often it was related to development, or an undiagnosed learning disorder. Both ends of the spectrum were interesting to me.

But as others have mentioned, it was also related to experiences. That's why kids who were read to were in general better readers.
 

Shadow Link

Active Member
“Stupidity?”

I’d read a profound statement once, “It is easier to judge a man by his questions rather than his answers.”
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Stupidity. An interesting topic.

The first thing I think it is important to do is to try to figure out what it is not -- and the first thing I think does not count as "stupidity" is ignorance. Because one may be ignorant of the facts or lack knowledge in one or more areas should not be counted as stupidity. After all, such a person may have already learned much about other topics, and be perfectly capable of learning about new ones -- given the opportunity and possessing the interest.

I think that for a thought or action to qualify as stupid, it must be informed (the mind must be capable of knowing that the action can't be correct for some reason or other), it must be deliberate (in spite of being informed), and it must be maladaptive (it must in some way not be in the best interest of the actor).

Yes, on an individual level, it could be ignorance, although the article was also talking about shared or collective stupidity which is a lot harder to challenge. One point they raised was in regards to the anti-vax movement, where the followers might be considered "dumb," while the leaders and instigators might be the "stupid" ones. Very often, they might have arguments which they've learned from someone else, and then they parrot those arguments as if they're from a voice of authority.

It doesn't help when people, who are supposedly educated with advanced degrees, can appear knowledgeable and make their arguments seem scientifically sound. That, along with a large percentage of the population already cynical and mistrustful about government (which itself is very secretive and mistrustful of the people), the idea that "the government is lying to you" or "the government is trying to control you" can be quite compelling.

So, even when someone does give them the straight story, even if it's the truth, they might not believe it.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
When I was in grad school, we identified a certain category of people as 'aggressively ignorant'.

These were people who were not simply ignorant (the whole job of teaching is to take ignorant people and make them less so), but who were resentful of any attempt to educate them. Anything not in line with their previous biases was seen as harmful and dangerous.

And, like the OP, it was possible to be quite smart in one subject while aggressively ignorant in another.

Now, this doesn't quite describe the general in the OP, but I do think of it as another form of stupidity.

I don't recall if I knew any aggressively ignorant in my school, other than the College Republicans.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
“Stupidity?”

I’d read a profound statement once, “It is easier to judge a man by his questions rather than his answers.”

I've also heard it said that "there's no such thing as a stupid question," although I doubt that many people truly believe that.
 

wandering peacefully

Which way to the woods?
Why some of the smartest people can be so very stupid | Psyche Ideas

I came across this article and it looked somewhat interesting.



What exactly is stupidity?

How does it relate to morality: can you be morally good and stupid, for example?

How does it relate to vice: is stupidity a kind of prejudice, perhaps?

And why is it so domain-specific: why are people often stupid in one area and insightful in another?

That last question is rather interesting, because some people can be brilliant in some areas but incredibly stupid in others.



The writer then goes on to describe the thinking of generals during WW1 and how they perceived trench warfare:



"Conceptual obsolescence" appears to relate to old fashioned or outmoded ways of thinking, or as the writer put it, "a failure to update their cognitive tools to fit the task in hand."



The writer makes a distinction between mere error and stupidity. They also indicate a difference between stupidity and what might be more accurately characterized as a lack of willpower. Stupidity indicates a lack of the necessary intellectual equipment, in which combatting it will typically require not brute willpower but the construction of a new way of seeing our self and our world.

I found this part interesting in light of several recent related discussions, particularly in the political realm where people may speak of their opponents as "stupid" or "uneducated" or "lacking in critical thinking skills." But I've always considered those explanations and characterizations as somewhat wanting and insufficient. This article suggests that stupidity relates to a lack of mental flexibility, an inability to think outside the box and look at the world in different terms.

The writer also notes that stupidity is a property of groups or traditions, not individuals, which is also an important distinction to make:





I found this also interesting, as stupidity is described as taking hold of groups or societies. This would also challenge the notion that it's due to an individual's lack of education or critical thinking skills, since those individualistic characterizations. The article is addressing examples of collective stupidity, perhaps due to fears of non-conformity or active peer pressure to conform to a specific set of ideas.

I'm reminded of the Asch Conformity Experiments (Asch conformity experiments - Wikipedia), which demonstrated that peer pressure can very much influence otherwise intelligent, educated people to make stupid choices.







It's an interesting example to use, of someone not realizing they were being cheated on: They literally didn't think of it, due to emotional and other pressures. They possess the intellectual tools, but unwittingly lock them away.



This is an interesting point. Are people who are considered smart today going to be considered stupid hundreds of years from now?

In a way, this article seems to touch upon some of the core problems in politics today. I hear a lot of people talk about stupidity and ignorance of the masses, suggesting that the only real solution is to send people back to school. But then, the educational system is often criticized as having a role in making people stupid. Then there's also peer pressure and a push to conform - often peppered with ridicule, hostility, and other emotionally-laden tactics.

Do you agree with the points raised in the article? What is stupidity, anyway? How does it manifest itself? What is the cure?

They say "you can't fix stupid," but that would suggest an irreparably flawed individual who can't be cured.

On the subject of military stupidity, some might also point to the U.S. unpreparedness regarding Pearl Harbor, bolstered by the unfounded belief that Pearl Harbor could not be attacked by air. Or the belief that the Japanese would not attack us. On the other hand, the Japanese might have been stupid to believe that a bloody nose at Pearl Harbor would cause the Americans to fold up and give in to Japanese demands. The Vietnam War, the War on Drugs, and the War on Terror might be similar examples of collective stupidity.

Just curious what others might think of this topic.

I used to believe stupidly was linked to a lack of education. But after spending several years of making service calls to doctors and lawyers offices for " nonworking dictators" and just simply putting the batteries in correctly and collecting $75 us dollars, that stupidly has not a thing to do with education.

Intelligence has probably more to do with being able to understand your environment no matter the situation and quickly adapt to needed changes or actions in order to arrive at the desired destination or goal.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
What exactly is stupidity?
It is forgetting the context either for some information or the context in which an action is taken. Suppose you really need a pair of scissors but forget that you have some, or suppose you bump your head because you forget where it is in relation to overhead objects. These are examples of stupidity. Another example is looking at financial data and not being able to interpret it, because you do not understand what it means. Its the same thing as the other two examples, because you have the information or have the action but don't know how it relates to other information. Generally stupidity is about not understanding the context or not understanding it quickly enough.

How does it relate to morality: can you be morally good and stupid, for example?
I think you can accidentally be good and stupid, however stupidity can also cause you to worry, cause you to be paranoid and trigger your suspicion and turn you evil. Jealousy and indignation are often a result of stupidity, because these need only the imagination and not real facts. All that has to happen is for your mind to run away with some idea, and you will feel terrible rage and anger. Stupidity means you handle your feelings wrongly, not knowing what to do with them. Stupidity means you take friendly humor as an insult, too.

How does it relate to vice: is stupidity a kind of prejudice, perhaps?
It is more like a loss of sensation. Imagine if you lost all feeling in one hand or the sight in your eyes or your sense of smell. It is like that, but it is in your mind. You miss ideas, times, signals, reminders, forget what connects to what. Perhaps you cannot organize things into common groupings or don't remember what part of your life you are in, whether you are still a child or an adult. Perhaps you cannot tell how you are perceived when you talk to people. Perhaps you cannot determine how people feel...etc. Perhaps you have things to say but cannot find your tongue. Stupidity is all of these things or any of them.

And why is it so domain-specific: why are people often stupid in one area and insightful in another?
We don't tell each other when we see a problem, because it is costly to do that. Its often not our place, or it makes a bond that we aren't sure we want. If I help you a little, then I am sort of connected to you then and sort of am expected to help you the rest of the way. A kind smile to a sickened heart is like an invitation to be friends. Most people avoid the mentally ill, the grouches, the worriers, the people who need help. We also hide our flaws. To be liked we have to pretend to be healthy.
 
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