Religions actively employ the cycle of abuse.

infrabenji said:

I think that's a valid point. It's not the point I'm trying to make lol but it is a valid one. These practices as you mentioned are found in many religions and also cults. But no I don't think belief necessarily means that one will become abused or become an abuser. In my experience, as many people have mentioned, people often do not realize their role as abuser or abused. Of course some do it intentionally. I think the purpose of having this conversation is to sus out the methods and mechanisms that are used in different religions that precipitate and perpetuate the abuse and to help give insight to ourselves and others on how and why this occurs so we can help other people who are suffering. The title is a little inflammatory I get that. I'm just not sure how to re word it in a short sentence that will draw in people for discussion. If you have any ideas or insights about the topic let us know. This is a conversation we should be able to have regardless of belief as it effects everyone. Even atheists.

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I think the doctrine of sola scriptura and the concept of Biblical inerrancy are "methods and mechanisms that perpetuate abuse" in the scenario I described. Literalism leads to abuse, imo because the Bible defines certain people and practices as "abominations". Action against them then becomes permissible, nay Godly.

Vinayaka said:

I asked you about what you meant by cycle of abuse, and you cited a psychologist who clearly defined cycle of abuse as the pattern within any domestic relationship as being cyclical in nature, with 4 basic steps. This is very specifically one type of abuse. So then I figured that was the topic. But now it's about institutionalised abuse, from institutions. So what exactly is it that you wish to discuss? Abuse by clergy? Abuse by parents? Abuse by institutions? Drug abuse?

Have you offered up any solutions? For spousal abuse, the recommendation of divorce by counsellors of all kinds might help. We could promote divorce, for that reason. In education, although it's already done in many countries, we could allot more resources and money to the idea and teaching of what it is, and that it's just plain wrong. Some excellent examples have been set by a couple of sports leagues, like the NFL where they have zero tolerance, and abusers have been cut from teams. The likes of Harvey Weinstein and Bill Cosby have been jailed in part because of programs like 'Me too'.

I'm interested in discussing solutions for any abuse, but not interested in using it as a reason to bash religion.

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I totally agree and I'm super glad you're on board. I was just telling someone else that there is no way I think I or anyone else will allow someone's personal beliefs to be demeaned or diminished in any way by having this conversation. It is solely for the purpose of identifying, if any, the mechanisms and that are used as tools for the abuse and what we can do to help others identify abuse and ,if possible, safely extricate themselves. Also, I feel this thread can serve to provide information and insight for ourselves and others so that we can help these people when they come into our orbit. The purpose of this thread is not to trick religious people into admitting that abuses exist as a way to bash the value of their beliefs or organizations. Again, I think that is where the disconnect is happening between me as an atheist and religious people on this thread. In reference to the cycle of abuse I found out of all the different types of abuse identification systems I looked at that the cycle of abuse as it relates to personal relationships resonated loudest for me and was more applicable for drawing relevant parallels from my limited experience. Thanks again for your insight. I hope you stick around and feel comfortable contributing to the thread. Let me know if you have any additional questions.

Orbit said:

I think the doctrine of sola scriptura and the concept of Biblical inerrancy are "methods and mechanisms that perpetuate abuse" in the scenario I described. Literalism leads to abuse, imo because the Bible defines certain people and practices as "abominations". Action against them then becomes permissible, nay Godly.

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That's a good point. I think we can all agree in some belief systems that take scriptures literally/or out of context can radicalize people and cause them to adopt positions not necessarily their own or cause them to do things that are contrary to their better nature. It can also give them the feeling of moral absolution for undeniably immoral deeds. My own mother is like this when it comes to the LGBTQIA community of which my sister is a part. I think we all for the most part see this type of literalism and agree that it effects not only people directly as in the case of a singular abuser and abused but indirectly by their actions as a group. I hope not to offend anyone but I would consider groups such as the Westborough Baptist church or ISIS to be engaged in these types of abuses. Are there other systems of abuse identification that you feel would be relevant, without throwing anybody under the bus of course, in identifying different methods of abuse and their mechanisms?

infrabenji said:

I totally agree and I'm super glad you're on board. I was just telling someone else that there is no way I think I or anyone else will allow someone's personal beliefs to be demeaned or diminished in any way by having this conversation. It is solely for the purpose of identifying, if any, the mechanisms and that are used as tools for the abuse and what we can do to help others identify abuse and ,if possible, safely extricate themselves. Also, I feel this thread can serve to provide information and insight for ourselves and others so that we can help these people when they come into our orbit. The purpose of this thread is not to trick religious people into admitting that abuses exist as a way to bash the value of their beliefs or organizations. Again, I think that is where the disconnect is happening between me as an atheist and religious people on this thread. In reference to the cycle of abuse I found out of all the different types of abuse identification systems I looked at that the cycle of abuse as it relates to personal relationships resonated loudest for me and was more applicable for drawing relevant parallels from my limited experience. Thanks again for your insight. I hope you stick around and feel comfortable contributing to the thread. Let me know if you have any additional questions.

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You have any concrete practical ideas besides reiterating your stance? You say you want to provide information, so let's do this.

I feel there are people on RF, and certainly in real life that don't actually realise their situation is a form of abuse.

infrabenji said:

What exactly did you find shallow and disingenuous about my post?

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Your assertion was:
Very well; defend the claim or retract it. Sadly, you do neither - you simply denigrate and pretend that you're hosting some self-help thread whose sole function is to "help give insight to ourselves and others on how and why this occurs." The result is little more than prettified bigotry. So, again:

• How many religious people?
• How frequently?
• Based on what studies?

Vinayaka said:

You have any concrete practical ideas beside reiterating your stance? You say you want to provide information, so let's do this.

I feel there are people on RF, and certainly in real life that don't actually realise their situation is a form of abuse.

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That's a good question because I'm not sure I understand it. I'll try my best to answer your question. I may need additional clarification or maybe someone else has practical ideas that can inform us? I think as far as practicality having the conversation and educating ourselves to begin with so we can better understand each other's beliefs and what to look out for is my idea, so far. If you have any concrete practical ideas please let's hear them. If I totally missed your point, forgive me. I do think we just identified scriptural literalism or taking scripture out of context as a potential mechanism and method of abuse. I think that you are 100% correct about people on RF and in real life not realizing their situation is a form of abuse. I hope they see this thread and it helps them. What are some things that indicate to you that someone is being abused but unaware of their abuse? Thanks in advance for your insights.

Shakeel said:

I find issues with that article and I'm sure I'm not the only one. It's alright until...
Or you could be experiencing lack of faith. Anyway, isn't just about everything they sell people these days supposed to be "a source of comfort, peace and inspiration in one's life"? And at the same time, that's definitely not what all religions - if any - are all about.

Optimistically, I would assume this means literally forcing someone to do something, but it could well be misunderstood to mean that any religious guidance is either abuse or borders abuse.

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Coercion can come from misuse of sacred texts.

infrabenji said:

If you have any concrete practical ideas please let's hear them.

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I gave several already. See post 79. I'm beginning to think others are right about the actual intent of this thread.

But here are some more. Secular governments need to encourage citizens to report abuse to local authorities. Once institutionalised, the abusers should have plenty of rehabilitation options. There should be lots of social services for victims.

In religious organisations, situations where abuse could happen need to be eliminated. In confessionals, the good fathers should have a list of resources they can suggest for both victims and abusers.

I see governments playing a major role ... in education, in rehab programs, in eliminating poverty. Very little a couple of people on some random internet forum can do.

For individuals ... if you're not a happy person, consider why. Perhaps you're in an abusive relationship or harsh religion, and it has yet to dawn on you. You deserve to be happy!

Here is a great TED talk of someone who escaped the Westboro Baptists:

I grew up in the Westboro Baptist Church. Here's why I left

"conversations on Twitter were key to her decision to leave" ← I think conversations here on RF can also be helpful for those escaping religious systems.

I am an ex-Mormon, and so have escaped a religious group who qualifies as a cult under the BITE model. Those who have left JW's have very similar experiences. It is very difficult as, depending on your community, you can lose your job, lose your family, lose everything and everyone you knew growing up. Those you thought were friends and family label you apostate, evil, faithless, and all manner of names - you are shunned, excommunicated, and bashed for honestly investigating religious truth claims. They will try to pit your children against you, your spouse against you - imagine a divorce, only worse.

Thankfully there are many support groups for those leaving the religious faith they were raised in. If there is anyone here who has been rejected by their family because of their family's religious beliefs, and needs a support group, this might be a good place to create one.

Wandering Monk said:

Coercion can come from misuse of sacred texts.

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Or just by using sacred texts - or without using them.

There is coercion everywhere in the world some of which is legally obligated. People are inclined to think coercion to something they personally don't like is wrong, but coercion when it suits them is right. E.g. forced vaccination.

Vinayaka said:

Once institutionalised, the abusers should have plenty of rehabilitation options.

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Are they insane?

Shakeel said:

Or just by using sacred texts - or without using them.

There is coercion everywhere in the world some of which is legally obligated. People are inclined to think coercion to something they personally don't like is wrong, but coercion when it suits them is right. E.g. forced vaccination.

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Great, but the subject of this thread is religious abuse.

Jayhawker Soule said:

Your assertion was:

​

Very well; defend the claim or retract it. Sadly, you do neither - you simply denigrate and pretend that you're hosting some self-l thread whose sole function is to "help give insight to ourselves and others on how and why this occurs." The result is little more than prettified bigotry. So, again:

• How many religious people?
• How frequently?
• Based on what studies?

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I'm not sure what your intention is by holding my feet to the fire and insulting me over my beliefs and wanting to help people. I certainly haven't done so to anybody else. As I've explained to others, if you are following along, these are ideas that need vetting and elaboration by religious people. We see almost real time examples of abuse happen every day on line, in person, and in the news. A quick google search will answer all 3 of your questions in just 2 searches. Simply google "how many religious people are affected by abuse" and "Religious abuse statistics", I don't think isolating any one group or groups, which is what you're asking me to do, will help to move the conversation forward. I will defend my claim though. I do believe indoctrination can be and is used as a tool to radicalize people, marginalize people, or rob people of their ability to weigh the truth value of information. I also believe that a certain amount of skepticism and doubt is necessary to prevent oneself from being abused and inculcating unquestioning devotion is a way to take that skepticism and doubt away from someone so they do not question the abuse they are undergoing. Indoctrination and devotion used in these ways can cause harm to oneself and others and you'll see if you look it up, that they are frequently used in this manner. I really hope that you'll see the value of people from different religious backgrounds coming together to inform each other of the ways and means of abuse and collectively work together to help others avoid and or escape abuse. Lastly, if you cannot, please don't come into the thread and insult people and crap all over our ideas. If all you have to contribute are insults and a lack of your own research feel free to check out some other threads.

Shakeel said:

Are they insane?

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I don't understand.

Vinayaka said:

I gave several already. See post 79. I'm beginning to think others are right about the actual intent of this thread.

But here are some more. Secular governments need to encourage citizens to report abuse to local authorities. Once institutionalised, the abusers should have plenty of rehabilitation options. There should be lots of social services for victims.

In religious organisations, situations where abuse could happen need to be eliminated. In confessionals, the good fathers should have a list of resources they can suggest for both victims and abusers.

I see governments playing a major role ... in education, in rehab programs, in eliminating poverty. Very little a couple of people on some random internet forum can do.

For individuals ... if you're not a happy person, consider why. Perhaps you're in an abusive relationship or harsh religion, and it has yet to dawn on you. You deserve to be happy!

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I'm sorry, I must have missed post 79. I have so many people responding at once it's hard to reply to everyone in a timely manner and follow along with other peoples conversations. I'm trying though. I believe as stated that there are people on this forum, who by statistic alone, are currently experiencing religious abuse. I think you have some good ideas for dealing with religious abuse. I also think government can and does play a major role. When was the last time something as pervasive as religious abuse was taken on by the government? Waco, Texas. I'm probably wrong on that one but, I think it's also important to remember that people who are being abused can be happy and not realize they're in an abusive relationship or harsh religion. Someone who is repeatedly abused may become acclimatized to the abuse, see it as normal behavior, and even suffer as a result of not being abused. They will often seek out people who are abusers if they are taken out of the cycle of abuse through circumstances etc. Thanks again for your insight. I know I've asked for a lot of empathy. If you're not down to continue or are bored or disagree or whatever I want to say I really appreciate your contributions and hope you to see you on other threads.

infrabenji said:

I'm sorry, I must have missed post 79. I have so many people responding at once it's hard to reply to everyone in a timely manner and follow along with other peoples conversations. I'm trying though. I believe as stated that there are people on this forum, who by statistic alone, are currently experiencing religious abuse. I think you have some good ideas for dealing with religious abuse. I also think government can and does play a major role. When was the last time something as pervasive as religious abuse was taken on by the government? Waco, Texas. I'm probably wrong on that one but, I think it's also important to remember that people who are being abused can be happy and not realize they're in an abusive relationship or harsh religion. Someone who is repeatedly abused may become acclimatized to the abuse, see it as normal behavior, and even suffer as a result of not being abused. They will often seek out people who are abusers if they are taken out of the cycle of abuse through circumstances etc. Thanks again for your insight. I know I've asked for a lot of empathy. If you're not down to continue or are bored or disagree or whatever I want to say I really appreciate your contributions and hope you to see you on other threads.

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So you have no suggestions. Okay then.

infrabenji said:

I'm probably wrong on that one but, I think it's also important to remember that people who are being abused can be happy and not realize they're in an abusive relationship or harsh religion.

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If a person is happy, what's the issue?

JustGeorge said:

If a person is happy, what's the issue?

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They should clap their hands

Tell you what I'll compile a list of every suggestion myself and others are making and update you hourly. It's amazing how many religious people I interacted with today and how little common decency was shown to me and to others. You'd think a forum of people from various religious and social backgrounds would be a think tank for dynamic intellectual discourse. But instead you can't even get someone to show common courtesy to another person. I thought loving your neighbor was a common tenant among the major religions including Hinduism but I have yet to see it displayed with any efficacy.

Group mentality owns human recognition.

Family first. Mental abuse is first established at home. Behaviours inherited.

Any form public group gathering. By purpose reason for group motivated purpose to outcome projected by the agenda.

So you have some family faithful groups and then the destructive human group disorder and agenda

Humanity abused hence as a victim tries to choose the best group.

I chose to realise where abuse was being expressed.

And it is a human crisis.

As groups establish healing conditions which were abused by the human need of extended family support.

Historic the cause of science first to trade greed elitism. The human group problem.