idea
Question Everything
This is a great thread. I have to run, but would be great to put resources on here for identifying cults, etc.
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Religions actively employ the cycle of abuse.
This is a great thread. I have to run, but would be great to put resources on here for identifying cults, etc.
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
Yeah, and we have had similar cases in Denmark, just not just religious ones.
My wife has a book on her bookshelf in the part, where she keeps her work books. It is about the "little evil" in asymmetric power relationships. Sometimes that even grows into a "bigger evil", but it is not unique to religion.
So I will try to be constructive. We are in effect talking about institutionalized abuse, but that is not about religion per se. That is my point.
Wandering Monk
Well-Known Member
The Kilted Heathen
Crow FreyjasmaðR
Of the kind that you have to worry about, generally look for Personality Types (Stephen McNallen, Jim Jones, the nexium people, Scientology, etc) or a culture that insists upon individual worthlessness and a need for the "Greater Whole" or some rot.
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
Well, laws also are sometimes a case of "Thou Shalt"s. So if you want to play we versus them, I started by checking both the we and the them.
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
That also happens in some other cases.
The Kilted Heathen
Crow FreyjasmaðR
And some laws are ridiculous, stupid, serving only the Few, racist, discriminatory, and/or only intended for profit. What's your point?
All of them? Most of them? Some of them? All religions? Most religions? Some religions?
You believe? Not sure where to go with this other than noting that you clearly seem to believe that it's useful to paint inordinately sloppy strokes with an inordinately broad brush and encourage others to do the same. The resulting mural is virtually guaranteed to be artless.
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
Well, thank you for your answer.
infrabenji
Active Member
I wish you would have read the whole post including the edit or any post after. I clearly outline why I used such general terminology. I guess it’s easier to muddy the water over a definition than it is to have a conversation about a real world issue that effects many people every day. How do you know a victim of abuse within the Catholic Church or maybe your own affiliation isn’t watching? Do you think your contribution would help them identify and resolve issues relating to their abuse? Isn’t that the thesis of this thread? To identify the mechanisms that enable abuse within religious organizations and help people who are unknowing participants extricate themselves from their own abuse. Or maybe I just posted this so you could hear yourself talk. I hope you’re not a theist because that was incredibly selfish.
Please explain why?
idea
Question Everything
Quite a few religious groups fail the cult test:
Cult Test | Cult Escape | Are you In A Religious Cult?
The BITE model is good I think
Steven Hassan's BITE Model of Authoritarian Control
Cult Test | Cult Escape | Are you In A Religious Cult?
The BITE model is good I think
Steven Hassan's BITE Model of Authoritarian Control
Shakeel
Well-Known Member
I find issues with that article and I'm sure I'm not the only one. It's alright until...
Or you could be experiencing lack of faith. Anyway, isn't just about everything they sell people these days supposed to be "a source of comfort, peace and inspiration in one's life"? And at the same time, that's definitely not what all religions - if any - are all about.
Optimistically, I would assume this means literally forcing someone to do something, but it could well be misunderstood to mean that any religious guidance is either abuse or borders abuse.
Basically I find ' religion ' can trace its roots all the way back to ancient Babylon.
As the people migrated away they took with them their 'religious-myth' ideas and practices ans spread them world wide into a greater religious Babylon or Babylon the Great.
Thus, we are basically speaking about ' religion' as being man made to suit man.
Whereas, what Jesus taught was about ' pure worship ' of his God and Father - John 4:23-24
Yes, you did. I found it to be a shallow and disingenuous rationalization.
infrabenji
Active Member
Great question! I said I "believe religious people frequently" because of the personal testimony of so many religious people over the past 20 years I've been at this and the testimony of so many more, from all manner of religious backgrounds, that can be heard or seen all over the news and on line around the world. Now I know I have made what some people are calling generalizations but hopefully I explained that sufficiently for you in the edit of my original post. I know that abusers also exist outside of religious organizations. I think the main purpose of this thread is to identify, if any, the mechanisms that are used as tools for the abuse and what we can do to help others identify abuse and ,if needed, extricate themselves. I've given some examples of what mechanisms I think are used to take advantage of others and examples of what I consider to be the by product of the abuse. Do you have any in mind? Have you come across someone who was abused in some way by a religious organization or individual within a religious organization? I bet we all have or have at least heard of someone. I know it's hard for people to accept that there may be abusers within their own organizations and talking about abuse even in a general context is difficult for many but, there are many more yet who have been or are in the cycle of abuse and need help. The purpose of this thread I believe is to provide information and insight to ourselves and others so that we can help these people when they come into our orbit. Some may be watching now? The purpose of this thread is not to trick religious people into admitting that abuses exist as a way to demean or diminish the value of their beliefs or organizations. I think that is where the disconnect is happening between me as an atheist and religious people on this thread. I have no interest on this thread in holding someone's feet over the fire for their religious beliefs. We are all in this one together.
Orbit
I'm a planet
I think you are referring specifically to Christian fundamentalists, who subscribe to "spare the rod and spoil the child", literal interpretations of an (inerrant) Bible, along with authoritarian parenting styles derived from the model of an angry judgmental God having complete (unquestion-able) authority. These are practices that are specific to that group, but that doesn't mean every family in that group engage in abuse. It suggests the question "When does "my beliefs" become abuse? LGBTQIA conversion therapy? Spanking? Guilt trips? Shunning?
infrabenji
Active Member
What exactly did you find shallow and disingenuous about my post? I'm curious because I can still make adjustments as this is not my goal. I just told another person that I think the main purpose of this thread is to identify, if any, the mechanisms that are used as tools for the abuse and what we can do to help others identify abuse and ,if needed, extricate themselves. Also, I feel this thread can serve to provide information and insight for ourselves and others so that we can help these people when they come into our orbit. The purpose of this thread is not to trick religious people into admitting that abuses exist as a way to demean or diminish the value of their beliefs or organizations. I think that is where the disconnect is happening between me as an atheist and religious people on this thread. I have no interest in being shallow or disingenuous or in holding someone's feet over the fire for their religious beliefs. This is a current issue in many societies and is something I thought the intellectual giants on this forum could provide a lot of insight for. Religious or non religious isn't as important when it comes to helping others selflessly.
I asked you about what you meant by cycle of abuse, and you cited a psychologist who clearly defined cycle of abuse as the pattern within any domestic relationship as being cyclical in nature, with 4 basic steps. This is very specifically one type of abuse. So then I figured that was the topic. But now it's about institutionalised abuse, from institutions. So what exactly is it that you wish to discuss? Abuse by clergy? Abuse by parents? Abuse by institutions? Drug abuse?
Have you offered up any solutions? For spousal abuse, the recommendation of divorce by counsellors of all kinds might help. We could promote divorce, for that reason. In education, although it's already done in many countries, we could allot more resources and money to the idea and teaching of what it is, and that it's just plain wrong. Some excellent examples have been set by a couple of sports leagues, like the NFL where they have zero tolerance, and abusers have been cut from teams. The likes of Harvey Weinstein and Bill Cosby have been jailed in part because of programs like 'Me too'.
I'm interested in discussing solutions for any abuse, but not interested in using it as a reason to bash religion.
infrabenji
Active Member
I think that's a valid point. It's not the point I'm trying to make lol but it is a valid one. These practices as you mentioned are found in many religions and also cults. But no I don't think belief necessarily means that one will become abused or become an abuser. In my experience, as many people have mentioned, people often do not realize their role as abuser or abused. Of course some do it intentionally. I think the purpose of having this conversation is to sus out the methods and mechanisms that are used in different religions that precipitate and perpetuate the abuse and to help give insight to ourselves and others on how and why this occurs so we can help other people who are suffering. The title is a little inflammatory I get that. I'm just not sure how to re word it in a short sentence that will draw in people for discussion. If you have any ideas or insights about the topic let us know. This is a conversation we should be able to have regardless of belief as it effects everyone. Even atheists.