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Hindu-Bahai Gita Discussion

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
If you have quoted from ISKCON Gita, then kindly note that it biased and differs from the original.

The translation is by professor Suman Mahadoekar and Vedante Vagisha.

The problem with bias isn't limited to ISKCON.

The translations and interpretations of the Gita have been so diverse that these have been used to support apparently contradictory political and philosophical values. For example, state Galvin Flood and Charles Martin, these interpretations have been used to support "pacifism to aggressive nationalism" in politics, from "monism to theism" in philosophy. According to William Johnson, the synthesis of ideas in the Gita is such that it can bear almost any shade of interpretation. A translation "can never fully reproduce an original and no translation is transparent", states Richard Davis, but in the case of Gita the linguistic and cultural distance for many translators is large and steep which adds to the challenge and affects the translation. For some native translators, their personal beliefs, motivations, and subjectivity affect their understanding, their choice of words and interpretation. Some translations by Indians, with or without Western co-translators, have "orientalist", "apologetic", "Neo-Vedantin" or "guru phenomenon" bias.

Bhagavad Gita - Wikipedia
 

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
That is I believe what makes sense to me and seems to have evidential and experiential merit and remain agnostic about the rest. This is also reflected in Hinduism in general. If you see a recent survey, almost half the Hindus did not believe in rebirth though its supposed to be a key tenet. So I do not see any need to agree with anything and everything Hinduism says or does not say. Bahai seems to be a more orthodox and structured religion where one is expected to believe most of the major teachings.
Catholic Church also has some strict dogma ("Credo" about Trinity, church and afterlife is a minimum requirement expected to believe and protection against heresy) but we are free to believe scientific discoveries...

Personal experiental knowledge (it is called "private revelation") is accepted but with limitation - it cannot change the established theology:

Christian faith cannot accept "revelations" that claim to surpass or correct the Revelation of which Christ is the fulfillment, as is the case in certain non-Christian religions and also in certain recent sects which base themselves on such "revelations".
 
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Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
One point of Gita that I really like is that it gives primacy of direct experience over scripture. Thus Gita is anti-literalist and anti-fundamentalist to the core.
Here are the sentences from 2.42 onwards,

Undiscerning [people] , delighting in the lore of the Veda,
0 son-of-Pritha, utter flowery speech, saying there is nothing else.


Having desire [as their] essence (atman ), intent on heaven, claim
that [a good re-] birth is the fruit of [ritual] action, [and have]
many special rites for the attainment of enjoyment and lordship.

Of [those who are] attached to enjoyment and lordship [and
have] "carried-away" minds-[ their] wisdom-faculty, [which is
of] the essence of determination, is not settled in deep meditation.

The triad of primary-qualities [of the manifested universe]
is the subject-matter of the Vedas. Become free of the triple
primary-qualities, free of the pairs-of-opposites, and, 0 Arjuna,
abide always in sattva (Truth/Discernment), without [trying to] gain or keep [anything]
. [Be] Self-possessed !

As much use [as is] a water-reservoir flooded with water all round,
so much [use is there] in all the Vedas for the knowing Brahmin (sage)
.


Gita, therefore marks a trend in Hinduism in moving away from scripture based beliefs and rituals (which continue to exist of course) to direct experiential enlightenment. The Hindus today therefore cannot be said to be a people of the book(s) so to speak. The scripture serves as a secondary aid (like a driving manual) to the actual focus which is for experiential gnosis. Thus Hinduism is comfortable with a wide range of scriptures and praxis methods (from Yoga to Tantra to Bhakti) and new ones crop up all the time without causing charges of heresy. While individual groups can give primacy to one guru or one scripture, as a whole the concept of one primary book, one primary revelation or practice system or one primary way of thinking about the Ultimate Reality is alien to Hindu thought.

How does this compare with the Bahai beliefs and praxis.

PS: I would note though this point is often lost to some fundamentalist Hindu people.

If I were a Hindu where the Bhagavad Gita was the central text, like you, I probably would not accord the text the same status as Christians do their Bible or Muslims the Quran. The key difference between the Bhagavad Gita compared to its Abrahamic counterparts is in regards historical validity. It seems implausible that Lord Krishna managed to teach Arjuna all that is recorded in the midst of a mighty battle where two vast armies were facing off. Besides, the book was written centuries after Krishna walked the earth. From the perspective of standard historical analysis we can't determine when the Gita was written or by whom. The story has parallels with some of the stories of Genesis in the Tanakh. So the story is most likely allegorical. I'm sure there are fundamentalist who view the Gita as an inerrant revelation from Vishnu much as the Christians and Muslims view their scriptures. If the story is allegorical there is much more latitude to find your own truth. That truth can only be gleaned from life experience and making efforts to live in accordance with our highest principles.

The Baha'i writings envisage Baha'u'llah as a Manifestation of God and His Writings as a Revelation from God. However Baha'is are exhorted to independently investigate the nature of reality. It is not sufficient to believe blindly as our ancestors have believed. We must see with our own eyes, not through the eyes of others. We know of our own knowledge.

O SON OF SPIRIT! The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes.

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 3-4

It is only through independent investigation of reality that we can more closely and intimately experience God.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Which versions do you prefer? I would like to know so I can use these in our discussion.
I know a little Sanskrit, I go by my understanding of the original. Also, being an atheist, I disregard the obvious theists views in Gita. I do not depend on anyone else's translation. Though I agree that it is good that Prabhupada's translations provide meanings of Sanskrit words (although not very correctly all the time). Otherwise, I use various other Sanskrit-English dictionaries Spoken-Sanskrit.de, Monier-Williams, Apte's, Sanskritdictionary, SanskritHeritage etc.
 
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Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Science can't prove anything about that, in my view.
Non-availability of even a shred of evidence about God, soul, prophets and prophecies, messengers and messiahs, is an indicator. Do you think there is an elephant in my room? I do not think you do.
The problem with bias isn't limited to ISKCON.
True. That is why I said I do not depend on anyone else for the translation or comments. Buddha advised against that - "Kalamas, when you know for yourself ..".
 
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Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
How is it a slander. That is what he wrote according to your quote:
"Immerse yourselves in the ocean of My words, that ye may unravel its secrets, and discover all the pearls of wisdom that lie hid in its depths."
 

ajay0

Well-Known Member
Why are you offended that some Baha'is view parts of the Gita allegorically?

I am not at all offended. I have replied to a post of yours where you referred to the theory of literal reincarnation being a mere allegory without any basis in fact.

Hindu-Bahai Gita Discussion

However I found that you did not give a critical reply to it, and hung on to your conditioned viewpoint of the Bahai version later on as well.

'Western psychology and psychiatry itself has created a huge body of documented evidence for reincarnation through the likes of Dr. Ian Stevenson, Dr. Brian Weiss, Dr. Michael Newton, Dr. Jim Tucker , Carol Bowman and others. There are a large, increasing number of adherents to the doctrine of reincarnation in the west itself.'

The theory of reincarnation is not a widespread belief in the Abrahamic religions, However you can see various people from an Abrahamic and atheist background becoming staunch advocates of reincarnation in the west, and an increasing number of adherents to it over there as well.

Obviously there cannot be smoke without fire, and advancements in psychiatry and psychology it seems is supporting the cause of reincarnation. Buddhist techniques such as vipassana and mindfulness itself has now been endorsed by psychiatrists as of having therapeutic applications.

I think it is only a matter of time, before we see the theory of reincarnation and past life regressions being endorsed by the psychiatric community for medical and therapeutic applications in the light of the evidence they have gathered.

In India as well, there are meditation techniques to remember past lives in ashrams and it is a hobby of mine to hear about the past lives of people so as to gather psychological insights from them. And I have encountered friendly people from Abrahamic backgrounds as well who discussed their past lives with me objectively.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
I am not at all offended. I have replied to a post of yours where you referred to the theory of literal reincarnation being a mere allegory without any basis in fact.

If you were not offended why did you say you were....

However I do find it offensive putting across to Hindus that reincarnation as presented in the Gita may be incorrect and emphasizing the Bahai viewpoint of reincarnation as presented in their texts, repeatedly.

If you say you are offended, then I take your words at face value.

However I found that you did not give a critical reply to it, and hung on to your conditioned viewpoint of the Bahai version later on as well.

So when I give my perspective, its based on my conditioning? But when you give yours its not conditioning because you are psychologically more advanced and transcended such thoughts?

'Western psychology and psychiatry itself has created a huge body of documented evidence for reincarnation through the likes of Dr. Ian Stevenson, Dr. Brian Weiss, Dr. Michael Newton, Dr. Jim Tucker , Carol Bowman and others. There are a large, increasing number of adherents to the doctrine of reincarnation in the west itself.'

Psychiatry as a professional body where I live does not endorse reincarnation or any religious belief. You will not find any statements from the RANZCP (Royal Australian and New Zealand college of psychiatrists) that endorse psychiatry. I'm a medical doctor btw who spent seven practicing psychiatry, so what you say is in no way part of the culture of psychological medicine where I live.

The theory of reincarnation is not a widespread belief in the Abrahamic religions, However you can see various people from an Abrahamic and atheist background becoming staunch advocates of reincarnation in the west, and an increasing number of adherents to it over there as well.

I'm not aware of any literature that suggests belief in reincarnation is becoming more prevalent in Australasia. To the contrary, we are becoming more secular and less inclined towards any religious belief. Its just a trend though and it doesn't prove anything.

Obviously there cannot be smoke without fire, and advancements in psychiatry and psychology it seems is supporting the cause of reincarnation. Buddhist techniques such as vipassana and mindfulness itself has now been endorsed by psychiatrists as of having therapeutic applications.

Mindfulness therapy is certainly endorsed as part of cognitive behavioural therapy but not reincarnation. Most Buddhists (I'm married to one) don't believe in reincarnation and understand concepts of rebirth/samsara quite differently from Hindus. Tibetan Buddhists are certainly an exception.

I think it is only a matter of time, before we see the theory of reincarnation and past life regressions being endorsed by the psychiatric community for medical and therapeutic applications in the light of the evidence they have gathered.

Perhaps in India where belief in reincarnation is the prevalent among a relatively high proportion of the population.

In India as well, there are meditation techniques to remember past lives in ashrams and it is a hobby of mine to hear about the past lives of people so as to gather psychological insights from them. And I have encountered friendly people from Abrahamic backgrounds as well who discussed their past lives with me objectively.

Reincarnation is an attractive theory. Your experience of meditation is proof to you but it is not proof to one who hasn't shared that experience. It is not part of my worldview but I can see how it could be helpful and comforting.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
If I were a Hindu where the Bhagavad Gita was the central text, like you, I probably would not accord the text the same status as Christians do their Bible or Muslims the Quran. The key difference between the Bhagavad Gita compared to its Abrahamic counterparts is in regards historical validity. It seems implausible that Lord Krishna managed to teach Arjuna all that is recorded in the midst of a mighty battle where two vast armies were facing off. Besides, the book was written centuries after Krishna walked the earth. From the perspective of standard historical analysis we can't determine when the Gita was written or by whom. The story has parallels with some of the stories of Genesis in the Tanakh. So the story is most likely allegorical. I'm sure there are fundamentalist who view the Gita as an inerrant revelation from Vishnu much as the Christians and Muslims view their scriptures. If the story is allegorical there is much more latitude to find your own truth. That truth can only be gleaned from life experience and making efforts to live in accordance with our highest principles.

The Baha'i writings envisage Baha'u'llah as a Manifestation of God and His Writings as a Revelation from God. However Baha'is are exhorted to independently investigate the nature of reality. It is not sufficient to believe blindly as our ancestors have believed. We must see with our own eyes, not through the eyes of others. We know of our own knowledge.

O SON OF SPIRIT! The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes.

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 3-4

It is only through independent investigation of reality that we can more closely and intimately experience God.
The quotation seems to be talking about justice and not about independently verifying the insights and teaching of the Bahai faith. Am I missing something?
I am a little puzzled about why the historicity of the authorship matters in the Abrahamic faith. Let us assume, for instance, that tomorrow we find that Einstein was not the discovered of General Relativity, but stole from an unpublished work of some unfortunate person who remained obscure. It would not affect the validity of General Relativity one bit. Because GR's truth relies on the evidence supporting it, not on who the author is. Similarly for the truths about ultimate reality, God etc. They are intrinsically eternal and ahistorical, independent of any person or historical happenstance, and can be validated through one's own investigation and analysis....or should be.
 

ajay0

Well-Known Member
If you were not offended why did you say you were....

I stated that I am not offended by the Bahai interpretation of reincarnation, but by the way you keep on repeating it in this discussion even though I have replied to it expecting an answer which I did not get.

So when I give my perspective, its based on my conditioning?

Obviously, what you state is in tune with the bahai beliefs, without a hint of agnosticism or without any interest in looking at the other's perspective or viewpoint. You had also not replied to me.

But when you give yours its not conditioning because you are psychologically more advanced and transcended such thoughts?

I had been a nonbeliever in reincarnation earlier but revised my beliefs upon study of facts and case studies of reincarnation of both eastern and western origin.


Psychiatry as a professional body where I live does not endorse reincarnation or any religious belief. You will not find any statements from the RANZCP (Royal Australian and New Zealand college of psychiatrists) that endorse psychiatry. I'm a medical doctor btw who spent seven practicing psychiatry, so what you say is in no way part of the culture of psychological medicine where I live.


Australia and New Zealand are recent nations just a century old, and made up of immigrants and also convicts forcibly and tragically deported from Britain.

India is an ancient civilization many milleniums old where the likes of Krishna, Buddha and Mahavira had taught about rebirth/reincarnation more than 2500 years back and created techniques for deeper study of the mind. We have a well-established body of psychiatrists trained in modern psychiatry as well.

I have also indicated the names of those western psychiatrists and psychologists whose background may not be Australian though.

A cousin of mine is a psychiatrist working in the U.K. and upon conversation with him, found that he was open to the idea of reincarnation and had met Dr. Brian Weiss, one of the leading western proponents of the theory of reincarnation, in a conference in the U.K.

Mindfulness therapy is certainly endorsed as part of cognitive behavioural therapy but not reincarnation. Most Buddhists (I'm married to one) don't believe in reincarnation and understand concepts of rebirth/samsara quite differently from Hindus. Tibetan Buddhists are certainly an exception.

Rebirth (Buddhism) - Wikipedia

Buddhism does not believe in a soul but it maintains that there is a stream of constantly changing consciousness and Sankharas or psychological impresssions and this is what undergoes rebirth.

It is not very different from the Hindu perspective with commonalities of karma and raag-dvesh or craving-aversion.

Reincarnation - Wikipedia

Perhaps in India where belief in reincarnation is the prevalent among a relatively high proportion of the population.

No, I am talking about the west here as indicated by the names I have put forward and growing adherents there.

Here is an article on the growing adherents of reincarnation in the west...

Remembrances of Lives Past (Published 2010)

IN one of his past lives, Dr. Paul DeBell believes, he was a caveman. The gray-haired Cornell-trained psychiatrist has a gentle, serious manner, and his appearance, together with the generic shrink décor of his office — leather couch, granite-topped coffee table — makes this pronouncement seem particularly jarring.

In that earlier incarnation, “I was going along, going along, going along, and I got eaten,” said Dr. DeBell, who has a private practice on the Upper East Side where he specializes in hypnotizing those hoping to retrieve memories of past lives. Dr. DeBell likes to reflect on how previous lives can alter one’s sense of self. He, for example, is more than a psychiatrist in 21st-century Manhattan; he believes he is an eternal soul who also inhabited the body of a Tibetan monk and a conscientious German who refused to betray his Jewish neighbors in the Holocaust.

Belief in reincarnation, he said, “allows you to experience history as yours. It gives you a different sense of what it means to be human.”

Reincarnation is an attractive theory. Your experience of meditation is proof to you but it is not proof to one who hasn't shared that experience. It is not part of my worldview but I can see how it could be helpful and comforting.

Just because you do not have the experience does not mean that you should reject it completely without benefit of doubt.

There are case studies of this sort which has resulted in regression of knowledge rather than progression in the past even in the world of science.

The Chandrasekhar Limit is named after the Nobel prize winning Indian scientist Subramanyam Chandrasekhar which lead to great advancements in astrophysics and understanding of black holes.

However, when he presented his concept of the Chandrasekhar Limit at the Royal Astronomical Society in London in 1935, he was publicly ridiculed by the British physicist Sir Arthur Eddington. Chandrasekhar expressed the view later on, that Eddington's view was racially motivated.

Chandrasekhar was vindicated later on decades later, by more proofs and experimental results that proved that his theory was correct, and he was rewarded the Nobel prize in 1983.

As per academician and scientist Arthur I. Miller, the blind opposition towards Chandrasekhar put back the world of science and regressed it.


In Miller's view:

Chandra's discovery might well have transformed and accelerated developments in both physics and astrophysics in the 1930s. Instead, Eddington's heavy-handed intervention lent weighty support to the conservative community astrophysicists, who steadfastly refused even to consider the idea that stars might collapse to nothing. As a result, Chandra's work was almost forgotten.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Yeah, you see all things through not 'God' (which is what all other theists do), but through Bahaollah 'goggles'.
And Baha'is think that they have clear vision and can see and know the truth.....

That would be assuming that looking for the same One God in all scriptures is a closed mind, wheras it may take a very open mind to do so.
I don't know how you can see "one God" in all the different beliefs that fall under what we call Hinduism. And even then, does that "one God" sound like the same God described in the Bible?

If I may ask, why are you so repugnant to the idea of reincarnation/rebirth as taught by Krishna and the Buddha, while glorifying them as prophets and Avatars !
Does the Gita teach reincarnation? Do those writings sound like they should be taken as being true? I would think, yes.

Why are you offended that some Baha'is view parts of the Gita allegorically?
But, since Baha'is don't believe reincarnation is true, then it must be allegorical? Same as what Baha'i do with the resurrection of Jesus?

They totally believe they're respecting diversity, but they're not ... at all.
They can say they "respect" it, because their religion teaches that most all religions are true and from the one true God. Yet, they can't and don't believe in the beliefs and practices of most all religions, because those practices and beliefs contradict their "true" beliefs.

I see that proof is also a relative truth.

What you see as proof, may not be what I see is proof.
What is true in religion? And what is only "relatively" true? Anyway, Great discussion everybody.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Obviously, what you state is in tune with the bahai beliefs, without a hint of agnosticism or without any interest in looking at the other's perspective or viewpoint. You had also not replied to me.

Well, I can say exactly the same about you. Obviously, what you state is in tune with Hindu beliefs, without a hint of agnosticism. As previously stated, I'm prepared to explore reincarnation with you. I would prefer if this was started in another thread that allows for debate and we are focusing more specifically on the reincarnation. However, because the belief in reincarnation is a significant point of difference between many Hindus and Baha'is and contributes to us interpreting the Bhagavad Gita differently, I'm prepared to to discuss it here.

I had been a nonbeliever in reincarnation earlier but revised my beliefs upon study of facts and case studies of reincarnation of both eastern and western origin.

I had been a believer in reincarnation prior to becoming a Baha'i. As literal reincarnation (transmigration of souls from one physical body to another) is rejected by the Baha'i Faith, I investigated whether or not reincarnation was true early in my exploration of the Baha'i Faith. I concluded there was insufficient evidence to either reject or accept this belief.

At this stage it is important to be clear about the difference between facts and beliefs. Facts are what we can establish as being true based on clear empirical evidence, That’s what scientists and medical practitioners try to establish.

Belief may also be true or not. There is insufficient evidence to determine whether our beliefs are true. I would consider the existence of night and day based on the movement of the earth and sun as being factual. I would consider many religious beliefs to lack the same standard of proof as facts. That includes not just the belief in reincarnation but also some of my beliefs such as the existence of an eternal soul, the existence of One God and indeed whether or not any of the people Baha'is consider Manifestations of God, are indeed Manifestations of God. The lack of sufficient evidence does not disprove them. It means we can not be certain about whether or not they are in true in the same way as established facts. So in regards all these matters, I'm agnostic and base my beliefs on faith.

Often in religious debate forums I see religious adherents presenting their beliefs as facts. Is that your approach with reincarnation? Is reincarnation a fact for you or a belief?

Australia and New Zealand are recent nations just a century old, and made up of immigrants and also convicts forcibly and tragically deported from Britain.

India is an ancient civilization many milleniums old where the likes of Krishna, Buddha and Mahavira had taught about rebirth/reincarnation more than 2500 years back and created techniques for deeper study of the mind. We have a well-established body of psychiatrists trained in modern psychiatry as well.

I have also indicated the names of those western psychiatrists and psychologists whose background may not be Australian though.

A cousin of mine is a psychiatrist working in the U.K. and upon conversation with him, found that he was open to the idea of reincarnation and had met Dr. Brian Weiss, one of the leading western proponents of the theory of reincarnation, in a conference in the U.K.

We can not be certain that Krishna even existed let alone He taught reincarnation. I believe Krishna did exist. We have no way of establishing for certain whether the Bhagavad Gita reflects the actual words Krishna spoke. Guatama certainly has a stronger historical basis for establishing He was a real person. We can not with any certainty, attribute any of the Buddhist Canon to the actual words of Guatama Buddha.

You may want to review your historical knowledge of Australasia (Australia and New Zealand). They are both well developed countries with effective health systems whose health professionals are familiar with international literature. We are closely allied with Europe and North America.

Reincarnation isn't an established fact anywhere within Western Health systems. There are always those within the profession who use their status to promote their personal ideologies. That is very different from reincarnation being endorsed by any professional medical body.

Rebirth (Buddhism) - Wikipedia

Buddhism does not believe in a soul but it maintains that there is a stream of constantly changing consciousness and Sankharas or psychological impresssions and this is what undergoes rebirth.

It is not very different from the Hindu perspective with commonalities of karma and raag-dvesh or craving-aversion.

Reincarnation - Wikipedia

The mainstream Hindu and Buddhist perspectives differ considerably in regards beliefs about the nature of the soul and whether it is eternal. The different worldviews can be linked to concepts such as karma, dharma and moksha of course. Baha’is belief in an eternal soul that passes through the world’s of God whereas its questionable mainstream Buddhism believes in a soul at all. Concepts of dharma and karma are compatible with Baha’i theology. Reincarnation and Moksha are compatible too is seen as being theological narratives that can be interpreted allegorically rather than literally true.

No, I am talking about the west here as indicated by the names I have put forward and growing adherents there.

Here is an article on the growing adherents of reincarnation in the west...

Remembrances of Lives Past (Published 2010)

Unfortunately I can not view that article through the link provided.

Just because you do not have the experience does not mean that you should reject it completely without benefit of doubt.

As previously expressed, I am an agnostic about reincarnation. Although I don’t believe in it, I acknowledge the possibility it may be true.

There are case studies of this sort which has resulted in regression of knowledge rather than progression in the past even in the world of science.

The Chandrasekhar Limit is named after the Nobel prize winning Indian scientist Subramanyam Chandrasekhar which lead to great advancements in astrophysics and understanding of black holes.

However, when he presented his concept of the Chandrasekhar Limit at the Royal Astronomical Society in London in 1935, he was publicly ridiculed by the British physicist Sir Arthur Eddington. Chandrasekhar expressed the view later on, that Eddington's view was racially motivated.

Chandrasekhar was vindicated later on decades later, by more proofs and experimental results that proved that his theory was correct, and he was rewarded the Nobel prize in 1983.

As per academician and scientist Arthur I. Miller, the blind opposition towards Chandrasekhar put back the world of science and regressed it.

In Miller's view:

The belief in reincarnation isn’t a new theory. Its been around a long time. It is a matter of belief. In India it is linked to the caste system which appears discriminatory and unjust. Therefore when Hindus talk about being able to perceive the past lives of themselves and others, I don’t trust them. I don’t believe a Just and Loving God would create such system and belief the caste system. Its encouraging to see reforms in this area. However I respect the rights and freedoms of others to hold different beliefs.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
The quotation seems to be talking about justice and not about independently verifying the insights and teaching of the Bahai faith. Am I missing something?

It may not have been the best quote but for me its about linking moral responsibility or dharma with being able to see things as they really are freed from the opinions and ideas of others. So we see through our own eyes, not the eyes of others. We know of our own knowledge (derived from independent investigation) rather than relying on what others claim to know.

There are many verses from the writings of Baha'u'llah and 'Abdu'l-Baha about independent investigation of truth.

Another few verses that I feel touches on this theme are when Baha'u'llah addresses one of the Uncles of the Bab (the Bab had been martyred a few years earlier) in his work the Kitab-i-Iqan (book of certitude).

"No man shall attain the shores of the ocean of true understanding except he be detached from all that is in heaven and on earth. Sanctify your souls, O ye peoples of the world, that haply ye may attain that station which God hath destined for you and enter thus the tabernacle which, according to the dispensations of Providence, hath been raised in the firmament of the Bayán."

"The essence of these words is this: they that tread the path of faith, they that thirst for the wine of certitude, must cleanse themselves of all that is earthly—their ears from idle talk, their minds from vain imaginings, their hearts from worldly affections, their eyes from that which perisheth. They should put their trust in God, and, holding fast unto Him, follow in His way. Then will they be made worthy of the effulgent glories of the sun of divine knowledge and understanding, and become the recipients of a grace that is infinite and unseen, inasmuch as man can never hope to attain unto the knowledge of the All-Glorious, can never quaff from the stream of divine knowledge and wisdom, can never enter the abode of immortality, nor partake of the cup of divine nearness and favour, unless and until he ceases to regard the words and deeds of mortal men as a standard for the true understanding and recognition of God and His Prophets."


It is all about being detached from our own cultural bias and independently seeking the truth. The Uncle of the Bab was a Muslim of course and so the language speaks to a conservative Islamic world view and encourages seeing truth being accepted norms and ideas.

I am a little puzzled about why the historicity of the authorship matters in the Abrahamic faith. Let us assume, for instance, that tomorrow we find that Einstein was not the discovered of General Relativity, but stole from an unpublished work of some unfortunate person who remained obscure. It would not affect the validity of General Relativity one bit. Because GR's truth relies on the evidence supporting it, not on who the author is. Similarly for the truths about ultimate reality, God etc. They are intrinsically eternal and ahistorical, independent of any person or historical happenstance, and can be validated through one's own investigation and analysis....or should be.

I agree that the truth is the truth wherever we find it. So in that sense it doesn't matter who or where it comes from.

However one of those truths for the Abrahamics are the necessity of recognizing and following the Teachings of authentic Prophets of God. The Prophets are considered historical and its important there is a clear and accurate record of what they taught. The lesson for the Jews in the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible) was repeated turning away from Yahweh (God) and the negative consequences individually and collectively. The Jews, Christians and Baha'is consider the Tanakh as more or less authentic scriptures. The Quran makes numerous references to both the Torah and Gospel.

While individual truths can be found anywhere the practice of both worship of God and following all the Teachings of recognized Prophets is considered essential It is not sufficient to recognize truth yet reject the Prophets.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
But, since Baha'is don't believe reincarnation is true, then it must be allegorical? Same as what Baha'i do with the resurrection of Jesus?
.

There are parallels between the resurrection narrative in Christianity and the reincarnation in Hinduism. Both concern the Eternal soul of man and what happens in the world beyond this one. A narrative or story is necessary to make sense of what is the unseen. There are problems with both narratives if taken too literally IMHO. Its worth noting that for Christians the narrative is scripturally based whereas for Hindus not to the same extent. Hindus may talk about memories of previous past lives or their mystical experiences to affirm their beliefs, and although scriptures such as the Bhagavad Gita may be used to affirm reincarnation, many Hindus don't have the same view of their scriptures as Christians view their Bible.
 

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
There are parallels between the resurrection narrative in Christianity and the reincarnation in Hinduism. Both concern the Eternal soul of man and what happens in the world beyond this one. A narrative or story is necessary to make sense of what is the unseen. There are problems with both narratives if taken too literally IMHO. Its worth noting that for Christians the narrative is scripturally based whereas for Hindus not to the same extent. Hindus may talk about memories of previous past lives or their mystical experiences to affirm their beliefs, and although scriptures such as the Bhagavad Gita may be used to affirm reincarnation, many Hindus don't have the same view of their scriptures as Christians view their Bible.
No problem if someone doesn't believe in (or is agnostic about) reincarnation or resurrection. Totally cool with that. The problem is that because of your beliefs you (and other Baha'is on RF) insist that something in BG/Bible has to be allegorical when certainly it isn't.

It's very likely that the dialogue between Krishna and Arjuna was used just as a (fictional) narrative frame for a philosophical teaching (not unlike the Platonic dialogues and some other philosophical writings). But even if the story is fictional you can't say that the teaching contained in it doesn't teach what it teaches. I hope you understand what I mean (sorry if my English is not perfect).

You can say that the Jesus’s resurrection account in the Bible is not based on enough evidence but you can't say it wasn't meant to be literal. You don't have to believe it but it is what early Christians believed. Rusurrection was one of the Jewish beliefs of that time. Pharisees held that belief and Sadducees didn't...
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
How is it a slander. That is what he wrote according to your quote:
"Immerse yourselves in the ocean of My words, that ye may unravel its secrets, and discover all the pearls of wisdom that lie hid in its depths."
There's no logic there. All the pearls of wisdom He has. Where does it say there are no other pearls of wisdom?
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
There's no logic there. All the pearls of wisdom He has. Where does it say there are no other pearls of wisdom?
But those pearls of wisdom are now out-dated and corrupted. Even what Bahaollah said, since they have been updated by the new message from Allah brought in by Mirza Gholam Ahmad. And more people believe in that than those who believe in Bahaiism.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
No problem if someone doesn't believe in (or is agnostic about) reincarnation or resurrection. Totally cool with that. The problem is that because of your beliefs you (and other Baha'is on RF) insist that something in BG/Bible has to be allegorical when certainly it isn't.

It's very likely that the dialogue between Krishna and Arjuna was used just as a (fictional) narrative frame for a philosophical teaching (not unlike the Platonic dialogues and some other philosophical writings). But even if the story is fictional you can't say that the teaching contained in it doesn't teach what it teaches. I hope you understand what I mean (sorry if my English is not perfect).

You can say that the Jesus’s resurrection account in the Bible is not based on enough evidence but you can't say it wasn't meant to be literal. You don't have to believe it but it is what early Christians believed. Rusurrection was one of the Jewish beliefs of that time. Pharisees held that belief and Sadducees didn't...

Hi @PearlSeeker ,

I do not believe the resurrection and ascension of Jesus literally happened and that perspective is supported by the Baha'i Writings. Most, not all Christians believe Jesus was literally resurrected and ascended to heaven. I don't believe the early Christians believed it because it simply didn't happen. The earliest NT book that refers to the resurrection is Paul's first Epistle to a church in Corinth, thought to be written about 53-54 AD. The earliest Gospel was probably Mark, thought to be written between 66 - 70 AD at the earliest. Paul testifies to having seen the resurrected Jesus though He didn't convert to Christianity until a few years after the 40 days of resurrection appearances of Christ culminating in this Ascension as recorded in Acts of the Apostles 1:9-11. It may well be the Gospel writers intended the resurrection story to be taken as literally true. The experience of the Spirit of Christ in the weeks and months after His crucifixion was as if He had literally returned from the dead. The meaning and power of the resurrection narrative relies on it being written as if literally true.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I don't know how you can see "one God" in all the different beliefs that fall under what we call Hinduism. And even then, does that "one God" sound like the same God described in the Bible?

We will never find God if we turn to people of this world.

We find God in the Word that was offered and by the example of that life. Those that live a life reflecting those 2 aspects of Faith are indeed One.

All else is of men, who either knowingly or unknowingly, have turned away from God.

All that becomes our journey in life and the choices we make.

Regards Tony
 
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