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Applying scrutiny to your beliefs

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
What method or methods do you use in testing if your beliefs are true or not? Do you apply different methods for testing different things in life, or do you test all things in life using only one method?

How confident are you that these tests work, and would you be willing to change the method(s) if a more reliable method came along?

Why do you feel the method(s) you utilize now work the best, and can you present tangible results that you could show others using these methods?

These questions are extremely vague, so feel free to explain things in more depth to fill in the gaps if you so desire. If you have questions begging more specific examples for clarification, feel free to ask. I hope others will answer with their perspectives as well.

Please be respectful in interacting with others, but I do encourage tough questions if any cross your minds. :)

Those are really excellent questions Sigurd.

I would like to start with an aphorism from the Hebrew Bible:


The naive or inexperienced person is easily misled and believes every word he hears, but the prudent man is discreet and astute.(Proverbs 14:15)


Catholic theology rejects the caricature that faith is simple, unthinking obedience to a set of rules or statements. This standpoint is actually a heresy that we call fideism.

The medieval scholastic theologian St. Thomas Aquinas held that faith was not mere convinced, untested opinion: on the contrary, he argued that it should be understood as a mean (in the Platonic sense) between science (i.e. demonstration) and opinion.

Thus, both the Bible and mainstream Christian tradition have never held that faith should just be accepted because it's so clear that it's the truth:


Test everything that is said to be sure it is true, and if it is, then accept it.” (1 Thessalonians 5:21)​


The traditional teaching of my church has never viewed faith simply as a matter of believing a collection of bits of information that God has revealed. St Anselm’s phrase, "faith seeking understanding" (fides quaerens intellectum), is applicable here. Catholic doctrine proclaims that human faith must be guided and completed by reason.

However, that doesn't mean that I subject every one of my articles of faith to scientific, empirical validation. I don't apply just one method for testing all things in life. I believe in a "twofold order of knowledge": natural reason (philosophical speculation and scientific enquiry) and divine revelation, which in my tradition are regarded as the "two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of truth", both equally important and irreplaceable in their very distinct orders. Different methodologies apply:


Hebrews 11: 1-3

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.


From the canons of the First Vatican Council (1869-1870):


This council was summoned by Pope Pius IX by the bull Aeterni Patris of 29 June 1868. The first session was held in St. Peter's basilica on 8 December 1869 in the presence and under the presidency of the Pope.


Chapter 4


On faith and reason


1. The perpetual agreement of the Catholic Church has maintained and maintains this too: that there is a twofold order of knowledge, distinct not only as regards its source, but also as regards its object.

2. With regard to the source, we know at the one level by natural reason, at the other level by divine faith.


Hence, so far is the Church from hindering the development of human arts and studies, that in fact she assists and promotes them in many ways. For she is neither ignorant nor contemptuous of the advantages which derive from this source for human life, rather she acknowledges that those things flow from God, the lord of sciences, and, if they are properly used, lead to God by the help of his grace.

12. Nor does the Church forbid these studies to employ, each within its own area, its own proper principles and method...


I can know some truths with high degrees of certitude by 'natural reason' guided by math and validated by empirical validation: for instance, I know that the earth isn't flat and that the heliocentric model of the solar system is correct whereas the geocentric is wrong; I know that no matter where I go in the universe, the law of gravity will still apply because it is universal. Same with the laws underlying quantum mechanics - indeterminacy, probability. These truths and others like them have been tested and backed up by bucket-loads of validating empirical evidence.

But I think there is a maximal limit to what humans can know definitively about reality through the use of our natural reason and by means, say, of testable predictions. There are certain things even in science that, in principle, cannot be proven empirically. Simply put, the horizons place constraints on how much we can ever hope to know empirically about reality. There comes a point when you can "see no further".

To quote the poet St. John of the Cross (1542 - 1591), "It is of such true excellence this highest understanding: no science, no human sense, has it in its grasping. He who reaches there in truth, his knowledge increases so that knowledge has an ending, all knowledge there transcending". But I don't even mean this in the strictly religious, mysterian sense per se - I mean due to factors like the particle horizon and our inability to observe anything beyond the Big Bang, other than by means of hypothetical calculations: which are without any possibility of accompanying empirical data that could substantiate whatever putative explanatory entities one believes fit the math.

So, in terms of these aspects of reality that may "lie outside the domain of scientific inquiry", I think it would be foolish for someone to claim that they know something in this sphere definitively, so I never claim to do so personally.

Every speculative philosophical and religious idea deriving from divine revelation falls into that category: it may be true, it may be out there - but we can't prove it other than through personal reflection and philosophical speculation, or personal experience say with prayer or mysticism. But such means only provide proof for the individual - they cannot be used to compel others to believe in things that are inherently untestable, even though they may make sense philosophically to a certain person, and have kind of elegance and 'explanatory power' for them, in the absence of the ability to test.

In this way, God is put forward by theists like myself as the reason for nature, the explanation of why things are the way they are (why we have something rather than nothing, to reference Leibniz). And God is outside what the realm of science can viably investigate and test - because science has physical and principal limits contingent upon what we are physically able to observe, whether directly or indirectly (in terms of testable consequences).

Whatever the "ultimate reality" or lack thereof beyond what is knowable through scientific inquiry may or may not be, that ultimate reality can be apprehended differently from diverse points of view: meaning that no single point of view regarding it is the complete truth. How could it be? We can't test it against empirical data. This fact reminds me to be wary of reifying or absolutizing my own religious beliefs at the expense of those of others.

I think it would be irrational to posit belief in such 'unfalsifiable' things, if one is touting the idea in question as a viable scientific theory on a par with evolution, general relativity or the Newtonian paradigm of classical mechanics (given that science has to do with testable observations rather than metaphysical speculations detached from empirical data about the world we live in). That's why 'Intelligent Design' applied to biology is pseudo-science.

But in my judgment, not all technically unfalsifiable beliefs are "irrational" to hold and are of equal implausibility in, say, the philosophical sense. I think it's valid and respectable to deduce speculative "hypotheses" within the boundaries set by scientific knowledge, that does not itself pass the bar (i.e. for 'falsifiability') to qualify as scientifically falsifiable but which still has merit.

Apologies for the length and convolutedness of my post, I just wanted to lay out my thinking in this regard! :)
 
Last edited:

Viker

Häxan
Do your ideas of where you should be or what you should do change over time?

Quite often. I don't think I have a locked position in the path.

Does whether or not you actually believe in something's existence determine it's effective value? For example; let's say that practicing sigil Magick produces results you find useful in your life, but you don't believe magic actually exists as some kind of tangible force. How do you reconcile beneficial value when it flies in the face of what you are actually convinced of

I think one would have to believe a thing has some worth in order to make use of it. Example, rather demons/daimons actually exist in some supernatural realm is irrelevant to me. Having a view that there's no disconnect between a mind, body and soul I can still do magical working. I don't expect profound results. I generally get what I need out of the act of ritual. And therefore, magic may be a tangible force. It's just nothing like Gandalf. :D
 

SigurdReginson

Grēne Mann
Premium Member
Quite often. I don't think I have a locked position in the path.



I think one would have to believe a thing has some worth in order to make use of it. Example, rather demons/daimons actually exist in some supernatural realm is irrelevant to me. Having a view that there's no disconnect between a mind, body and soul I can still do magical working. I don't expect profound results. I generally get what I need out of the act of ritual. And therefore, magic may be a tangible force. It's just nothing like Gandalf. :D

Your post makes me smile. Thanks again for taking the time to share your thoughts! :)

Hmmm... Although, I'm curious if you utilize something established such as Goetia in your practice, or if you utilize your own unique techniques. What inspires your path?
 

Viker

Häxan
Your post makes me smile. Thanks again for taking the time to share your thoughts! :)

Hmmm... Although, I'm curious if you utilize something established such as Goetia in your practice, or if you utilize your own unique techniques. What inspires your path?
I utilize Goetia, yes. I've been working on my own techniques as well, inspired by Goetia and research into other arts. I seriously want to reinvent the wheel when it comes to witchcraft. Hence, the Défeolcræft. It's an archaic word I want to breathe new life into. Forging my own individual path inside a path inspires me.
 

alypius

Active Member
What method or methods do you use in testing if your beliefs are true or not? Do you apply different methods for testing different things in life, or do you test all things in life using only one method?

How confident are you that these tests work, and would you be willing to change the method(s) if a more reliable method came along?

Why do you feel the method(s) you utilize now work the best, and can you present tangible results that you could show others using these methods?

These questions are extremely vague, so feel free to explain things in more depth to fill in the gaps if you so desire. If you have questions begging more specific examples for clarification, feel free to ask. I hope others will answer with their perspectives as well.

Please be respectful in interacting with others, but I do encourage tough questions if any cross your minds. :)

If a belief can be verified scientifically then is it still a belief?
 

SigurdReginson

Grēne Mann
Premium Member
Those are really excellent questions Sigurd.

I would like to start with an aphorism from the Hebrew Bible:


The naive or inexperienced person is easily misled and believes every word he hears, but the prudent man is discreet and astute.(Proverbs 14:15)


Catholic theology rejects the caricature that faith is simple, unthinking obedience to a set of rules or statements. This standpoint is actually a heresy that we call fideism.

The medieval scholastic theologian St. Thomas Aquinas held that faith was not mere convinced, untested opinion: on the contrary, he argued that it should be understood as a mean (in the Platonic sense) between science (i.e. demonstration) and opinion.

Thus, both the Bible and mainstream Christian tradition have never held that faith should just be accepted because it's so clear that it's the truth:


Test everything that is said to be sure it is true, and if it is, then accept it.” (1 Thessalonians 5:21)​


The traditional teaching of my church has never viewed faith simply as a matter of believing a collection of bits of information that God has revealed. St Anselm’s phrase, "faith seeking understanding" (fides quaerens intellectum), is applicable here. Catholic doctrine proclaims that human faith must be guided and completed by reason.

However, that doesn't mean that I subject every one of my articles of faith to scientific, empirical validation. I don't apply just one method for testing all things in life. I believe in a "twofold order of knowledge": natural reason (philosophical speculation and scientific enquiry) and divine revelation, which in my tradition are regarded as the "two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of truth", both equally important and irreplaceable in their very distinct orders. Different methodologies apply:


Hebrews 11: 1-3

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.


From the canons of the First Vatican Council (1869-1870):


This council was summoned by Pope Pius IX by the bull Aeterni Patris of 29 June 1868. The first session was held in St. Peter's basilica on 8 December 1869 in the presence and under the presidency of the Pope.


Chapter 4


On faith and reason


1. The perpetual agreement of the Catholic Church has maintained and maintains this too: that there is a twofold order of knowledge, distinct not only as regards its source, but also as regards its object.

2. With regard to the source, we know at the one level by natural reason, at the other level by divine faith.


Hence, so far is the Church from hindering the development of human arts and studies, that in fact she assists and promotes them in many ways. For she is neither ignorant nor contemptuous of the advantages which derive from this source for human life, rather she acknowledges that those things flow from God, the lord of sciences, and, if they are properly used, lead to God by the help of his grace.

12. Nor does the Church forbid these studies to employ, each within its own area, its own proper principles and method...


I can know some truths with high degrees of certitude by 'natural reason' guided by math and validated by empirical validation: for instance, I know that the earth isn't flat and that the heliocentric model of the solar system is correct whereas the geocentric is wrong; I know that no matter where I go in the universe, the law of gravity will still apply because it is universal. Same with the laws underlying quantum mechanics - indeterminacy, probability. These truths and others like them have been tested and backed up by bucket-loads of validating empirical evidence.

But I think there is a maximal limit to what humans can know definitively about reality through the use of our natural reason and by means, say, of testable predictions. There are certain things even in science that, in principle, cannot be proven empirically. Simply put, the horizons place constraints on how much we can ever hope to know empirically about reality. There comes a point when you can "see no further".

To quote the poet St. John of the Cross (1542 - 1591), "It is of such true excellence this highest understanding: no science, no human sense, has it in its grasping. He who reaches there in truth, his knowledge increases so that knowledge has an ending, all knowledge there transcending". But I don't even mean this in the strictly religious, mysterian sense per se - I mean due to factors like the particle horizon and our inability to observe anything beyond the Big Bang, other than by means of hypothetical calculations: which are without any possibility of accompanying empirical data that could substantiate whatever putative explanatory entities one believes fit the math.

So, in terms of these aspects of reality that may "lie outside the domain of scientific inquiry", I think it would be foolish for someone to claim that they know something in this sphere definitively, so I never claim to do so personally.

Every speculative philosophical and religious idea deriving from divine revelation falls into that category: it may be true, it may be out there - but we can't prove it other than through personal reflection and philosophical speculation, or personal experience say with prayer or mysticism. But such means only provide proof for the individual - they cannot be used to compel others to believe in things that are inherently untestable, even though they may make sense philosophically to a certain person, and have kind of elegance and 'explanatory power' for them, in the absence of the ability to test.

In this way, God is put forward by theists like myself as the reason for nature, the explanation of why things are the way they are (why we have something rather than nothing, to reference Leibniz). And God is outside what the realm of science can viably investigate and test - because science has physical and principal limits contingent upon what we are physically able to observe, whether directly or indirectly (in terms of testable consequences).

Whatever the "ultimate reality" or lack thereof beyond what is knowable through scientific inquiry may or may not be, that ultimate reality can be apprehended differently from diverse points of view: meaning that no single point of view regarding it is the complete truth. How could it be? We can't test it against empirical data. This fact reminds me to be wary of reifying or absolutizing my own religious beliefs at the expense of those of others.

I think it would be irrational to posit belief in such 'unfalsifiable' things, if one is touting the idea in question as a viable scientific theory on a par with evolution, general relativity or the Newtonian paradigm of classical mechanics (given that science has to do with testable observations rather than metaphysical speculations detached from empirical data about the world we live in). That's why 'Intelligent Design' applied to biology is pseudo-science.

But in my judgment, not all technically unfalsifiable beliefs are "irrational" to hold and are of equal implausibility in, say, the philosophical sense. I think it's valid and respectable to deduce speculative "hypotheses" within the boundaries set by scientific knowledge, that does not itself pass the bar (i.e. for 'falsifiability') to qualify as scientifically falsifiable but which still has merit.

Apologies for the length and convolutedness of my post, I just wanted to lay out my thinking in this regard! :)

This is a lot to go through and digest, but it's really unpacked in such a way to where you would later on answer questions that would pop into my head as you'd suggest themes throughout your post. Thank you so much for taking the time to unpack your thoughts so completely. You have a very logical way of approaching things that I can appreciate. :)

Even still, there are some things you mention that I'm curious to hear more of your thoughts on.

You mention utilizing both faith and scientific inquiry in regards to testing your beliefs. Do you believe utilizing faith is something everyone should utilize in finding the roots of ultimate truth, or is that of use more on a personal basis (meaning it might not work for everyone)? Also, would scientific endeavors benefit from the incorporation of faith,?

"But I think there is a maximal limit to what humans can know definitively about reality through the use of our natural reason and by means, say, of testable predictions."

When you say "maximal limit" do you mean there is a limit to the testable predictions that can be made through scientific testing ever, or are you saying that you believe that this "maximal limit" only applies to our capabilities now, and that this limit expands as our understanding of how nature works and can be manipulated continues to grow? If you are saying that you believe that there is a limit that humans can't ever move past, what has led you to this conclusion?
 

SigurdReginson

Grēne Mann
Premium Member
I utilize Goetia, yes. I've been working on my own techniques as well, inspired by Goetia and research into other arts. I seriously want to reinvent the wheel when it comes to witchcraft. Hence, the Défeolcræft. It's an archaic word I want to breathe new life into. Forging my own individual path inside a path inspires me.

Your pursuit into Défeolcræft reminds me of my own pursuit into runecrafting. I think your endeavors, though a lonely path, also make for a truly ****** path. Respect. :)

What are some of the sources of inspiration for you in this regard?
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
What method or methods do you use in testing if your beliefs are true or not?
I ask myself, "Do you truly believe that?" and if the answer is yes, then it's a belief.

If you're asking if my beliefs are knowledge or not, that's a different test.

Do you apply different methods for testing different things in life, or do you test all things in life using only one method?
Just the one method.

How confident are you that these tests work, and would you be willing to change the method(s) if a more reliable method came along?
So far, the test has worked every time, 100%: when I ask myself if I truly believe that, and the answer is yes, it's always a belief.

Why do you feel the method(s) you utilize now work the best, and can you present tangible results that you could show others using these methods?
Simple. If I ask someone else to ask me if I truly believe a thing, that's just passing the buck. It's actually no different from asking myself if I believe it. Hence, the method I use is the best (i.e. most efficient).

As far as tangible results, I can only offer my testament that I believe a thing.

These questions are extremely vague, so feel free to explain things in more depth to fill in the gaps if you so desire. If you have questions begging more specific examples for clarification, feel free to ask. I hope others will answer with their perspectives as well.

Please be respectful in interacting with others, but I do encourage tough questions if any cross your minds. :)
I don't think the method of determining a belief could be more simple, or need any more clarification.
 

SigurdReginson

Grēne Mann
Premium Member
If a belief can be verified scientifically then is it still a belief?

Absolutely. Beliefs do not require faith, they require becoming convinced of something.

"an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists."

I believe scientific inquiry yields useful results.

Now, here's a question I have for you: do you believe something that is scientifically verified is a fact? Keep in mind, things in the past that have been accepted as scientifically verified, such as Ampere's Curcuital Law, have been amended or even thrown out as better information came along.
 

SigurdReginson

Grēne Mann
Premium Member
I ask myself, "Do you truly believe that?" and if the answer is yes, then it's a belief.

If you're asking if my beliefs are knowledge or not, that's a different test.


Just the one method.


So far, the test has worked every time, 100%: when I ask myself if I truly believe that, and the answer is yes, it's always a belief.


Simple. If I ask someone else to ask me if I truly believe a thing, that's just passing the buck. It's actually no different from asking myself if I believe it. Hence, the method I use is the best (i.e. most efficient).

As far as tangible results, I can only offer my testament that I believe a thing.


I don't think the method of determining a belief could be more simple, or need any more clarification.

Check mate. :D
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
New What method or methods do you use in testing if your beliefs are true or not? Do you apply different methods for testing different things in life, or do you test all things in life using only one method?
First, before I answer this question, can I ask you if you think that religious believers need to continue to scrutinize and test their beliefs for their entire lives, or do you think it is possible that believers could settle into their beliefs and know they are true, AFTER they have scrutinized and tested their beliefs?
 

Wildstar

Member
It sounds like you are happier living life this way.

What do you attribute this happiness to? Do you feel as though scrutinizing your beliefs in such a scientific way was an exhausting or troublesome thing? Do you feel your beliefs now might not as accurately define reality as they did before, or vice versa?

Also, I'd be curious to know your thoughts on subjective vs. objective reality.

I do feel as though scrutinizing my beliefs in the manner I did prior was exhausting, troublesome and also all about ego. It took a lot to push me hard enough to just... stop.

Do my current beliefs accurately define reality? Not at all. How can they? Reality is dynamic. From what I have experienced, what was true years ago, even a year ago, may not be true today, tomorrow, a week from now, a month from now, several months from now, a year from now or several years from now. What is more, what was true, might cease being true for a time, then go back to being true. So, that being stated, I live in a realm of possibilities, a realm of wonder.

Subjective? Objective? I have no idea. Perhaps each reality within the multiverse is objective and the experience I have of it being subjective, only exists because I am shifting to realms in sync with my... will? Complex thing to explain, that. Whatever the thing is that slips through the multiverse, attracting to itself this and that by means of fixation, belief, emotion and thinking.
 

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
Well, for starters, I don't take the Eddur as Gospel. They're stories, and I'm actually working on writing my own telling of them (an original re-telling, not a translation) that I'm going to call the Brucesson Edda.

As for the rest, I tend to worship what I can see. So I'm not quite sure what testing and scrutiny I can do, as I can point to everything that I worship as the gods. But, I also don't have an axe to grind in terms of proving it; it contents me, all in it's time, and that's usually enough.
 

SigurdReginson

Grēne Mann
Premium Member
First, before I answer this question, can I ask you if you think that religious believers need to continue to scrutinize and test their beliefs for their entire lives, or do you think it is possible that believers could settle into their beliefs and know they are true, AFTER they have scrutinized and tested their beliefs?

I don't assume that my opinions are important enough that anyone needs to do anything that I think is good. :D

The only life I know is mine. I can't crawl inside anyone's head and know how they've come to the understandings they have in life. No matter how much I empathize with someone, I can only ever empathize with the idea that I've constructed in my head according to assumptions I've made based on the limited information that I've been able to gather. I don't judge. :)

That said, I do believe there are choices we make that are more or less useful to us. I think it is more useful for me to constantly test my beliefs than to stop testing my beliefs. Collective knowledge grows as time goes on, and I want my understanding of that knowledge to also grow with it. Time waits for no man!
 

SigurdReginson

Grēne Mann
Premium Member
Well, for starters, I don't take the Eddur as Gospel. They're stories, and I'm actually working on writing my own telling of them (an original re-telling, not a translation) that I'm going to call the Brucesson Edda.

As for the rest, I tend to worship what I can see. So I'm not quite sure what testing and scrutiny I can do, as I can point to everything that I worship as the gods. But, I also don't have an axe to grind in terms of proving it; it contents me, all in it's time, and that's usually enough.

I'd be interested in reading that when it's done! Are we talking the Poetic Eddas or the Prose Eddas? Are you going to write them in poetic stanzas, or will they be told as a story (or both)? :D
 

SigurdReginson

Grēne Mann
Premium Member
I do feel as though scrutinizing my beliefs in the manner I did prior was exhausting, troublesome and also all about ego. It took a lot to push me hard enough to just... stop.

Do my current beliefs accurately define reality? Not at all. How can they? Reality is dynamic. From what I have experienced, what was true years ago, even a year ago, may not be true today, tomorrow, a week from now, a month from now, several months from now, a year from now or several years from now. What is more, what was true, might cease being true for a time, then go back to being true. So, that being stated, I live in a realm of possibilities, a realm of wonder.

Subjective? Objective? I have no idea. Perhaps each reality within the multiverse is objective and the experience I have of it being subjective, only exists because I am shifting to realms in sync with my... will? Complex thing to explain, that. Whatever the thing is that slips through the multiverse, attracting to itself this and that by means of fixation, belief, emotion and thinking.

That sounds like a very intuitive way to perceive reality. That's interesting! Thank you for unpacking your thoughts for me. :)
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
That said, I do believe there are choices we make that are more or less useful to us. I think it is more useful for me to constantly test my beliefs than to stop testing my beliefs. Collective knowledge grows as time goes on, and I want my understanding of that knowledge to also grow with it. Time waits for no man!
This is just my opinion but I I do not think that one has to continue to question a religious belief once they have done their due diligence and determined that it is the truth, but that does not mean they should stop searching for truth wherever they might find it because truth can be found in many places, inside and outside of religions. It is a Baha'i belief that we should never stop searching for truth.
 

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
I'd be interested in reading that when it's done! Are we talking the Poetic Eddas or the Prose Eddas? Are you going to write them in poetic stanzas, or will they be told as a story (or both)? :D
Both, in a way. Somewhat similar to what Neil Gaiman did with his Norse Mythology book, but of my own telling. I don't think I've the skills to try my hand at poetry and metered stanzas, so I'll likely write it as modern literature.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
What method or methods do you use in testing if your beliefs are true or not? Do you apply different methods for testing different things in life, or do you test all things in life using only one method?

How confident are you that these tests work, and would you be willing to change the method(s) if a more reliable method came along?

Why do you feel the method(s) you utilize now work the best, and can you present tangible results that you could show others using these methods?

These questions are extremely vague, so feel free to explain things in more depth to fill in the gaps if you so desire. If you have questions begging more specific examples for clarification, feel free to ask. I hope others will answer with their perspectives as well.

Please be respectful in interacting with others, but I do encourage tough questions if any cross your minds. :)

What do you mean by tangible results?
 
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