Anti-vaxers; The Real Issue.

Dan From Smithville said:

Those things don't need to be injected. They can be put in the water supply or disseminated in the air.

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I mean, in her world, the reason the weather is getting more crazy over time is because the government controls a giant weather machine in Alaska that manipulates the weather and says climate change is a hoax. I'm not sure what use logic has to the mind of someone who doesn't respect reason.

Dan From Smithville said:

Then why bother worrying about and questioning this at all?

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Because the forum is there.

If the people you don't agree with are going to get theirs, then easy peasy.

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Get what? I didn't say anything about people agreeing with me or not. I'm not looking for validation. I get that directly from God, the creator of the heavens and the earth. Human validation means nothing compared to that.

Of course that implies that the person saying it is correct and somehow is privy to the mind of God.

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Well, there is this in the scriptures:

1Cor 2:16,

Why don't we keep this to the subject of your OP. Unless you are going to preach about how Democrats are the tool of Satan. Then I am out of here.

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I won't do that if you don't say Republicans are the tool of Satan.

I agree about sticking to the subject. I'm not interested in whether any particular system is right or not, just wondering why so many don't trust it. So, how do you feel about half the population maybe not trusting their government or health care system?

I think that gets us back to the OP.

Revoltingest said:

So much blame to go around....
Tops on my list of giving out bad info, &/or setting bad examples...
Trump
Biden
AOC
OAN <-- Very anti-vax
But I'll also give Trump credit for fast tracking vaccines,
& to Biden for at least being pro vaccine & pro mask.

And remember, I didn't call you a "dunderhead".
I don't know enuf about your views to judge.

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I think that a lot of the propaganda that is specific to vaccines seems to come from the same direction that a lot of other conspiracy theories are coming from. I think it is a terrible situation when any group starts to base political decision making on invalid information and conspiracy theories.

This doesn't mean that this is the only source of conspiracy theories, misinformation and whacko ideas. I am not sure that the far left trusts the government anymore than the far right. It is just a difference in how they want to use it.

I don't think capitalism is the root of all evil either. It has been pretty good to me and made it to where I can help others that haven't yet found it so good.

rrobs said:

Because the forum is there.


Get what? I didn't say anything about people agreeing with me or not. I'm not looking for validation. I get that directly from God, the creator of the heavens and the earth. Human validation means nothing compared to that.


Well, there is this in the scriptures:

1Cor 2:16,

For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.​

I won't do that if you don't say Republicans are the tool of Satan.

I agree about sticking to the subject. I'm not interested in whether any particular system is right or not, just wondering why so many don't trust it. So, how do you feel about half the population maybe not trusting their government or health care system?

I think that gets us back to the OP.

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Have a good day.

Dan From Smithville said:

Have a good day.

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You too brother! Of course, how could we not have a good day seeing as how it is Christ in us!

Col 1:27,

rrobs said:

You too brother! Of course, how could we not have a good day seeing as how it is Christ in us!

Col 1:27,

To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:​

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In Christ I can trust my questions will be answered.

esmith said:

Let's see now according to Latest Data on COVID-19 Vaccinations by Race/Ethnicity
Minorities make up the largest number of non-vacinated.
So, are some of you saying that minorites are Republicans?

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You're correct that the answer is not simplistic. Blacks still remember the Tuskeege Experiments and are thus inclined to distrust the vaccine.

And until recently, there were issues in accessing the vaccines because people could not take unpaid and unapproved time off from work. I got my jab through the hospital because my primary care doc was affiliated with it. My wife's jabs were at the end of a 40 minute drive because that was available at the time.

But let's not minimize the impact of the anti-vax celebrations by the right including the lies that Covid was no worse than the flu etc.

rrobs said:

Who's really to blame for the lack of trust?

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One factor is that people aren't taught how science works in school. I have an MS in Chemistry and understand from my education how science works, how initial findings get overturned as better experiments and more data is accumulated. And I understand how carefully documented findings are sensationalized by the media with cautions in the findings ignored in media reports.

Revoltingest said:

I've noticed too that it's popular to attack white conservatives.
But they just can't bring themselves to criticize minorities.

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I'm criticizing the deliberate lying about Covid on the part of the Trump right for political aims.

My attitude is different for those who are confused, cautious because of historical crimes (Tuskeege) and so forth.

Revoltingest said:

So much blame to go around....
Tops on my list of giving out bad info, &/or setting bad examples...
Trump
Biden
AOC
OAN <-- Very anti-vax
But I'll also give Trump credit for fast tracking vaccines,
& to Biden for at least being pro vaccine & pro mask.

And remember, I didn't call you a "dunderhead".
I don't know enuf about your views to judge.

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For me, "lack of trust" comes from two sources -- experience, and ignorance. So lack of trust in leadership (especially political) is probably at least not undeserved. On the other hand, the nonsense that people spread about vaccines ("impossible to have been created so fast" when in fact mRNA technology has been 3 decades in progress) can be overcome -- you could actually go and try to learn something. Takes work, of course, which is harder than believing your favourite rock or movie star on YouTube. And one can discover that a lot of those in both the sciences and healthcare do what they do not so much for personal gain as for genuine desire to learn and to help others.

70% of US has at least one dose of the vaccine not 50%

SigurdReginson said:

I mean, in her world, the reason the weather is getting more crazy over time is because the government controls a giant weather machine in Alaska that manipulates the weather and says climate change is a hoax. I'm not sure what use logic has to the mind of someone who doesn't respect reason.

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I was being facetious. I hope that you didn't see that as derogatory.

It is interesting to learn what people will believe without evidence and what they will ignore or denigrate even if it has a preponderance of evidence in support of it.

For some, no amount of evidence or reason is enough to persuade them to re-evaluate their position. Or even examine it more closely at all.

Lyndon said:

70% of US has at least one dose of the vaccine not 50%

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I noticed that too.

Dan From Smithville said:

I don't think anyone said that. Maybe I missed it.

I thought the question was the source of the mistrust. Those minorities and their numbers of unvaccinated may be a result and not part of the cause. Your source says they account for the largest percentage of unvaccinated adults, but it doesn't say why that is. It also says that vaccinations among minorities is also surging and the racial gap may be narrowing.

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COVID-19 is crushing red states. Why isn’t Trump turning his rallies into mass vaccination sites?
"Trump and many of his Republican colleagues have allowed a virulent anti-vaccine/anti-masking/anti-social distancing campaign to spread among their voters, reinforced by Fox News. The campaign gained strength just in time for the emergence of a new and more contagious COVID variant: the Delta variant. Polling has shown that the anti-vaccine message is especially popular among Republicans. Kaiser Family Foundation data indicate that Republicans are the group most likely to say they will “definitely not” get a vaccine:"

rrobs said:

First of all, I want to make it 100% clear that I am not anti-vax, but does not the fact that there are around 150,000,000 folks in the US (not all dunderheads as often portrayed, let's keep it real) who apparently don't trust the government or our healthcare system give reason to pause and reconsider? Who's really to blame for the lack of trust?

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There are 5.2 billion more humans on this planet who need to be vaccinated before we can all maybe exit out of this PANDEMIC.

Unless a person truly wishes to ignore the facts and therefore greatly increase the chances of them and their contacts dying, they will get the available vaccine. The hesitation because of supposed side effects or not trusting government is not a valid excuse to not help humanity by vaccinating.

If people want to die that is fine. But unless they are willing to lock themselves in their basements for the next 24 months, they are being irresponsible in not vaccinating. (- the very small percent whose bodies cannot withstand the Covid 19 shot).

I don't see it happening. So good bye to many humans.

Dan From Smithville said:

I was being facetious. I hope that you didn't see that as derogatory.

It is interesting to learn what people will believe without evidence and what they will ignore or denigrate even if it has a preponderance of evidence in support of it.

For some, no amount of evidence or reason is enough to persuade them to re-evaluate their position. Or even examine it more closely at all.

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Heh, nah. I knew you were being facetious.

But in your joke, you demonstrated just how unreasonable such a position was, and it didn't take much. It's not even really that the position itself was weak, but that it was held up in such a makeshift way that no thought was put into it at all. But the thing is, in demonstrating that the logic is faulty by utilizing such basic reasoning, those same folks would be quick to say "yah, but..." and abandon that position by constructing some other haphazardly structured belief to fall behind in it's place.

I really don't get it.

I remain unclear as to what the "real issue" with

SigurdReginson said:

Heh, nah. I knew you were being facetious.

But in your joke, you demonstrated just how unreasonable such a position was, and it didn't take much. It's not even really that the position itself was weak, but that it was held up in such a makeshift way that no thought was put into it at all. But the thing is, in demonstrating that the logic is faulty by utilizing such basic reasoning, those same folks would be quick to say "yah, but..." and abandon that position by constructing some other haphazardly structured belief to fall behind in it's place.

I really don't get it.

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I don't understand it either. But I think it is important to try to understand even while realizing that some will never be reached.

We have come to a point where a larger number of people are making serious and important decisions based on nonsense that they believe and have never vetted.

esmith said:

COVID-19 is crushing red states. Why isn’t Trump turning his rallies into mass vaccination sites?
"Trump and many of his Republican colleagues have allowed a virulent anti-vaccine/anti-masking/anti-social distancing campaign to spread among their voters, reinforced by Fox News. The campaign gained strength just in time for the emergence of a new and more contagious COVID variant: the Delta variant. Polling has shown that the anti-vaccine message is especially popular among Republicans. Kaiser Family Foundation data indicate that Republicans are the group most likely to say they will “definitely not” get a vaccine:"

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Thanks for the info. Inspired by this, I did a review of a number of media sources and it turns out you are correct. There appears to be widespread support among Republicans against vaccination.

sun rise said:

I'm criticizing the deliberate lying about Covid on the part of the Trump right for political aims.
My attitude is different for those who are confused, cautious because of historical crimes (Tuskeege) and so forth.

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Exemplifying my point.

rrobs said:

First of all, I want to make it 100% clear that I am not anti-vax

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I'm already vaccinated and would encourage everyone who has access to vaccine to become vaccinated as well.

but does not the fact that there are around 150,000,000 folks in the US (not all dunderheads as often portrayed, let's keep it real)

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Well, for one thing, I think that it's important to not dismiss the unvaccinated as "antivaxxers".

Here in the United States, not enough vaccine doses have been produced to fully vaccinate everyone. Latest figures seem to be that 403,047,000 doses have been distributed and 348,966,000 (86%) have been administered. While that's enough to cover the entire population with one dose, full vaccination in most cases requires two doses. So at upwards of an 86% usage rate (many of the unused doses are in transit or awaiting use), they don't seem to be having a lot of trouble finding people to take it.

Vaccination rates very by age. The highest rates are among those 65 and over who received access to vaccines first. The lowest vaccination rates are among children, who are at least risk from the disease (though they can spread it). That's as it should be with the highest risk population vaccinated first and the lowest-risk population vaccinated last.

Vaccination rates vary by urban vs rural, with higher rates in urban areas. That's likely a function both of vaccine availablity and perceived need, since rural people are already somewhat "social distanced" and perceive themelves to be in less contact with possibly infected strangers than big city dwellers would be on public transit or on a crowded street.

So to some extent I think that the whole spectre of "anti-vaxxers" is a creation of the media, something of a caricature created for political ends.

who apparently don't trust the government or our healthcare system give reason to pause and reconsider? Who's really to blame for the lack of trust?

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I think that there is indeed considerable distrust of the health care authorities here in the United States. Perhaps the largest single driver of that distrust is how health-care is perceived as having been weaponized for political purposes. (That isn't surprising in a culture in which almost everything has been weaponized for political putposes.) And I lay the blame for that directly at the feet of the Democratic Party. From the very beginning they have politicized covid in hopes of using it to attack Trump.

Prior to the 2020 election, we saw Andrew Cuomo telling Anderson Cooper that half the population was unwilling to take "Trump's vaccine". Joe Biden suggested at the time that he didn't personally trust the vaccines. Kamala Harris said upfront that she wouldn't take them. Then after the election the whole mainstream media narrative took an abrupt and obvious 180.

In real life what Republican Governors have done isn't halt vaccinations in their states or anything remotely like that. They have tried instead to go light on repressive measures that kill the Middle class and mainstreet business, along with the wholesale erosions of civil liberties that we have been seeing around covid. Placing whole populations under what amounts to house arrest. Government controls on where people can go and what they can do when they leave their homes. Covid passports. Forcing everyone to wear muzzles.

The issue isn't so much being anti-vaccine as it is being against the kind of police state apparatus that's being advocated in response to the covid issue. The media seem to be trying to focus attention on the caricature that they have created of the "anti-vaxxer" so as to allow the latter to fly under the radar.