Viker
Häxan
Sometimes, yes.
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Atheist Views.
- Thread starter Justanatheist
- Start date
Atheism is nothing more than the lack of belief in gods. Most atheists are also secular humanists not because they are atheists, but because the same principles that led them to atheism lead them to other ideas like science and the modern, liberal, democratic, secular state. If your atheism is based in skepticism, reason, and empiricism, then that same skepticism, reason and empiricism has you reject the faith-based systems of the past such as alchemy, astrology, and creationism, and replace them with their alternatives created by removing the faith and replacing it with principles that lead to science, you get chemistry, astronomy and Big Bang/evolution.
If one rejects the faith-based received wisdom of scripture, which instructs that, "whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves," he is free to move forward to better ideas.
The same principles that led to atheism when applied to the question of the existence of gods, and to nature that led to science, converted a world of monarchies into free societies when applied to the problem of the philosophy of government.
And when taken to its logical end, we get secular humanism, which is why most atheists in the West are also secular humanists. If there is no god, it is up to man to create his world and to decide what is right and good. Humanist values include reason, compassionate rational ethics, a regard for human potential and the desire to develop it, tolerance, diversity - basic liberalism.
The point is that many atheists one encounters on the Internet have similar values and beliefs not because they are atheists, but because they are skeptics and empiricists, which accounts both for their atheism and much of the rest of their world view..
Atheists don't have to be rational or kind to be atheists. They just need to have no god belief. An atheist can be a Stalinist, but he's not a secular humanist atheist if he is. An atheist can indulge in irrational, magical thinking, as when one decides that the stars are magically controlling his life rather than a conscious agent like a deity. As long as one doesn't believe in gods, he's an atheist. But as I said, in the West, this virtually always entails secular humanism despite the theists tired argument that atheism leads to genocide. If it did, it would do so in the West as well.
Actually, it is exactly consistent with the freedom that America champions, which is why abortion became legal. America is not a theocracy, and religious freedom includes freedom FROM religion. Freedom means giving the choice whether to bring a pregnancy to term to the potential mother, and not having somebody's religious belief imposed on them using the might of the state to enforce it. I've noticed that many of the theists on this thread are having a little difficulty understand what imposing means. This is imposing. It means that somebody else is making the decision for you or limiting your options, not that they merely disagree and rebut the claims of theists.
And insisting that religious people not torment other law-abiding citizens for being outside their religion's specifications is not shoving beliefs down anybody's throat. It's stopping them from doing that to others.
I left a nice quiz on religious liberties on page four of this thread in the spoiler section. These are the kinds of things I see the religious calling imposing on them: https://www.religiousforums.com/threads/atheist-views.248011/page-6#post-7269893
As you know, they don't. You've asked a few times and gotten no meaningful answers.
I think that's the take-home message here. I haven't seen a single example of atheists imposing anything on theists except that they keep their religion to themselves, that is, we would impose on the religious an inability to impose their religious values on others outside their faith. Many examples of theist imposition have been provided, such as putting their god on the money (imagine their reaction to putting "We Have Outgrown Gods" on the money), and wanting abortion recriminalized, but not a single example of atheist imposition, just an unsupported claim of false equivalency.
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SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
These claims require proof.
Shakeel
Well-Known Member
There are no coincidences.
I agree. But I don't think the implication of that is quite what you seem to be suggesting it is.
So...come on...enough with the pointless riddles.
Why do people live longer these days?
Shakeel
Well-Known Member
A lot of Christians don't consider God all-knowing or all-powerful. They say they do, but then they contradict it. See biblical view of Noah's flood and God "regretting".
Shakeel
Well-Known Member
Considering that Noah lived almost a thousand years, the premise of your question is uncertain. Regardless, I don't know why people live as long as they do, other than that God willed so.
74x12
Well-Known Member
By what objective standard of morality are you going by with this assertion?
God makes some interesting decisions then. My mother in law passed on, and was brought back by a machine and the skill of the doctors. You seem to be suggesting that had nothing to do with it, and it was simply God's will.
So you'd advocate removing all hospitals?
Justanatheist
Well-Known Member
Nice little story we call them fairy tales where I come from. There does not appear to be a way to distinguish between a fairy tale and a religious story. Perhaps you can show us the difference.
Oh, if you're looking for someone who will argue that Christian doctrine is consistent, don't look at me.
74x12
Well-Known Member
According to your religious status I assume you're some variant of Satanist. In which case ... I am absolutely shocked that you would agree with atheists on any topic!
Magical Wand
Active Member
Hahaha! Comparing science to leftist ideology! That's hilarious. So, is "skepticism, reason, and empiricism" leading to leftist ideology as well? Nothing better than a good laugh after waking up. ㅤ:）
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74x12
Well-Known Member
In fact atheism without communism has turned into a bloodbath before. If you look at the French revolution atheism was actually involved. The idea in France at the time was that the monarchy was God and church approved. If you didn't want to offend God or get excommunicated as a heretic then they believed that you had to acknowledge the "right" of the aristocracy to exist and rule France. This meant that in order for many people to justify the revolution they thought they needed atheism. Atheism was actually heavily involved with the French revolution and was part of the justification for slaughtering so many people on the guillotines.
I believe that atheism is not necessarily always a cause for genocide but is often an excuse or justification for it. I mean atheists literally embrace the inner beast. They literally claim they are nothing but animals. And the majority now days even claim they are a variant of ape.
As for secular humanism it has some good points although it's not totally good; but I think you fail to acknowledge that it built off of the morality of Christianity since secular humanism largely developed in Europe and not elsewhere. Even though there have been other secular minds in other areas of the world. The people who developed secular humanism were whether they liked it or not influenced by the morality of the Christian paradigm.
Viker
Häxan
I probably agree with you on many things, too. And I bet there are things on which I disagree with atheists. Religious status has very little to do with for what I agree/disagree upon.According to your religious status I assume you're some variant of Satanist. In which case ... I am absolutely shocked that you would agree with atheists on any topic!
The bloodbath in the French Revolution happened after Robespierre replaced the Cult of Reason (non-theistic) with the Cult of the Supreme Being (theistic).
74x12
Well-Known Member
The cult of Supreme being was authorized by national convention on 7 May 1974, but the executions had already been going on. For example Marie Antoinette was executed 1793. This really follows the trend of other official atheist governments actually. First they declare absolute atheism and then follow it up with some kind of new replacement "godhead" because they believe people somehow "need" religion. So in NK for example you are told to worship the Kims and in China even they worship the government.
Besides just the executions by guillotine there was also the matter of the Vendee Rebellion when the French army killed possibly 150,000 civilians because of their Catholic faith.
So really just as the Cult of Reason was really getting going. You know it lasted only about a year, right?
Robespierre was no atheist. He hated atheism. The Cult of the Supreme Being was a theistic response to secularism. It wasn't theistic window-dressing on atheism.
Just because the Monarchists used the epithet "Catholic" to describe themselves doesn't mean that they were killed for their faith.
The Revolution rebelled against tyranny and oppression. The counter-revolution rebelled against the new government. Atrocities certainly happened, but religion is only involved to the extent that the tyrannical monarchy was also very anti-secularist.
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Your fallacy: argumentum ad lapidem.
Actually, to get to liberalism, you need to add compassion/empathy to the skepticism, reason, and empiricism. You need the Golden Rule, which the Bible gives lip service to, but doesn't actually respect. Is Christian homophobia consistent with it? How about Christian theocratic tendencies and disrespect for church-state separation? I know that nobody asked or cares, but that is neither how we wish to be treated or how Christians would wish to be treated in return. Look at you. Is the way you treat others here how you wish to be treated? If so, I refuse.
Also, formal education is helpful in arriving at a liberal worldview. And travel.
Atheism is never a cause of genocide, and theism is not a defense against genocide. People who do commit genocide don't give atheism as their reason. Hitler didn't. In fact, he appealed to Christian antisemitism to manufacture support for his pogroms and death camps.
What you are ignoring is the fact that the bulk of atheists are secular humanists, and they neither commit nor advocate for genocide.
Yes, we literally claim that we are apes and animals. This seems to offend many theists. I don't find knowing that I am an ape that evolved from other apes the least bit offensive.
Secular humanism is a reaction to faith-based systems like Christianity, not a variation of it. Respect for reason over faith is not a Christian value. Respect for human potential is not a Christian value. Determining right and wrong by the application of reason to compassion is not a Christian value. Skepticism is not a Christian value. Freedom of and from religion is not a Christian value. Democracy is not a Christian value. Almost none of my beliefs or moral values can be found in Christianity.
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Shakeel
Well-Known Member
Then she didn't really pass on.
No, I think it plays a part, but if God doesn't want it to work it won't. We go to a doctor, but we don't believe the doctor cures us - that is, he has no power over the affair. We don't pay doctors for curing us - we pay them for trying.