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Arabia and the Bible

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
I believe Arabia holds many secrets that could illuminate our understanding of both the Bible and Qur'an.

What do you know about the myths and legends of early Arabia?

Which tribes and peoples occupied the Arabian Peninsula?

Do place names give hints as to the earliest settled occupants?

Was Mount Sinai in Arabia?

'Yemen was the name of the southern portion of Arabia, but the Greeks called it Happy Arabia, on account of the fertility. Saba was the name of a city there of great importance in early times. In that region Joktan, the mythical great-grandson of Noah's son Shem, became father of a people living in rich and populous cities of commercial importance. A thousand years before Christ, the rich king King Solomon was reigning at Jerusalem, and wondrous were the stories told about him, - stories that travellers slowly carried along the shores of the Red Sea, so tradition asserts, until they got quite down to the Indian Ocean, where they reached the ears of Balkis, the queen of Saba*. [*The capital of Yemen, the seat of the Himyaritic dynasty to which the queen of Saba is said to have belonged, was Mareb, two days' journey northeast of a city called Sana, and great numbers of finely cut stones, inscriptions, coins, and jewels still give evidence that a city of importance once stood there. Balkis is represented to have been descended from one Afrikis, who according to tradition, gathered the remnants of the Amalekites after Joshua overthrew that people, and led them to the other side of the Red Sea, where they multiplied and were known from their barbarous dialect as Berbers.'] Her people were Sabeans; they stood on their rich wadies and on their lonely sands, and gazed up to heaven in wonder, as the stars, the sun, and the moon shone down upon them, and they thought that such brights lights must be gods. Then they bowed their heads and worshipped the host of heaven.' [The Saracens, Arthur Gilman]
 

SigurdReginson

Grēne Mann
Premium Member
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Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
This might be a good place to start. :)

History of the ancient Levant - Wikipedia

The ancient Sumerians were also interesting, and the Epic of Gilgamesh sees some parallels in the bible.

Sumer - Wikipedia

Oh yah! The Akaddian Empire is good to know about as well. :D

Akkadian Empire - Wikipedia

Oh! And the Achaemenid Empire, too. That's especially useful to read about in regards to biblical times, even if it's a later empire.

Achaemenid Empire - Wikipedia

Yes, I think they're all very interesting topics!

On the question of Arabia and the Bible, there's a passage in Genesis 25:12-16, that gives some interesting names:
'Now these are the generations of Ishmael, Abraham's son, whom Hagar the Egyptian, Sarah's handmaid, bare unto Abraham:
And these are the names of the sons of Ishmael, by their names, according to their generations: the first born of Ishmael, Nebajoth; and Kedar, and Adbeel, and Mibsam,
And Mishma, and Dumah, and Massa,
Hadar, and Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah:
These are the sons of Ishmael, and these are their names, by their towns, and by their castles; twelve princes according to their nations.'

To those who doubt the historicity of early biblical figures, these genealogical lists seem to present a problem. Why do such lists exist?

Tayma - Wikipedia
 
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SigurdReginson

Grēne Mann
Premium Member
Yes, I think they're all very interesting topics!

On the question of Arabia and the Bible, there's a passage in Genesis 25:12-16, that gives some interesting names:
'Now these are the generations of Ishmael, Abraham's son, whom Hagar the Egyptian, Sarah's handmaid, bare unto Abraham:
And these are the names of the sons of Ishmael, by their names, according to their generations: the first born of Ishmael, Nebajoth; and Kedar, and Adbeel, and Mibsam,
And Mishma, and Dumah, and Massa,
Hadar, and Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah:
These are the sons of Ishmael, and these are their names, by their towns, and by their castles; twelve princes according to their nations.'

To those who doubt the historicity of early biblical figures, these genealogical lists seem to present a problem. Why do such lists exist?

Well, I don't think anyone doubts that there are historical facts in the bible. In fact, the bible is a wonderful resource for historians to utilize that sheds a lot of light on things we wouldn't know about without it.

The thing is, though, is that all old texts reference real historical things; reminds me of the Saga of the Volsungs.

The Volsungs were a very real family that was powerful and influential in the old Nordic world. Now, in the Saga there are references to real people in history mixed with mythical people. Some of the real people mentioned in the Saga were people that the Nordic folks probably only heard about, even if they never actually interacted with them, like Attila the Hun (who predated saga by quite a bit).

The saga contains magic and supernatural events in reference to real places and things that happened. I will reference this, here, as an example.

Völsunga saga - Wikipedia

"Throughout the saga, elements of the supernatural are interwoven into the narrative. One recurring theme is the periodic appearance of Odin, the foremost among Norse deities, associated with “war, wisdom, ecstasy, and poetry.”[2] He is typically depicted as a mysterious, hooded old man with one eye.[3]"

"Odin also directly intervenes during key points in the narrative. During a battle, Odin, again in the guise of an old, one-eyed man, breaks Sigmund's sword, turning the tide of the battle and ultimately leading to his death.[7] He also stabs Brynhild with a sleeping thorn and curses her never to win another battle as an act of revenge for killing Hjalmgunnar, a rival king to whom Odin had promised victory.[8]"


The whole point of mentioning all this is to say that all old texts seem to be historically traceable to some extent, if nothing else, as a reference to what cultures of the time believed. The biases they had then can oftentimes be lost forever when read from a modern mindset, and those biases can often paint the language they used to refer to certain things.

For example, when Moses comes down from the mountain and the Israelites were worshiping an idol in the shape of a "golden calf." People in those days didn't have a calf as a god that they worshipped. El was often represented as a bull. The writers of that story framed El as "only a calf" to belittle and disrespect him as a deity, it seems.

"Ēl is called again and again Tôru ‘Ēl ("Bull Ēl" or "the bull god")."

""El" (Father of Heaven / Saturn) and his major son: "Hadad" (Father of Earth / Jupiter), are symbolized both by the bull, and both wear bull horns on their headdresses.[23][24][25][26]"


El (deity) - Wikipedia

A lot of Christians didn't know that, and so depictions of the israelites with the "golden calf" are often done so in taking the bible literally when the story was being figurative and symbolic in that moment.

1101978090_univ_lsr_xl.jpg
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Well, I don't think anyone doubts that there are historical facts in the bible. In fact, the bible is a wonderful resource for historians to utilize that sheds a lot of light on things we wouldn't know about without it.

The thing is, though, is that all old texts reference real historical things; reminds me of the Saga of the Volsungs.

The Volsungs were a very real family that was powerful and influential in the old Nordic world. Now, in the Saga there are references to real people in history mixed with mythical people. Some of the real people mentioned in the Saga were people that the Nordic folks probably only heard about, even if they never actually interacted with them, like Attila the Hun (who predated saga by quite a bit).

The saga contains magic and supernatural events in reference to real places and things that happened. I will reference this, here, as an example.

Völsunga saga - Wikipedia

"Throughout the saga, elements of the supernatural are interwoven into the narrative. One recurring theme is the periodic appearance of Odin, the foremost among Norse deities, associated with “war, wisdom, ecstasy, and poetry.”[2] He is typically depicted as a mysterious, hooded old man with one eye.[3]"

"Odin also directly intervenes during key points in the narrative. During a battle, Odin, again in the guise of an old, one-eyed man, breaks Sigmund's sword, turning the tide of the battle and ultimately leading to his death.[7] He also stabs Brynhild with a sleeping thorn and curses her never to win another battle as an act of revenge for killing Hjalmgunnar, a rival king to whom Odin had promised victory.[8]"


The whole point of mentioning all this is to say that all old texts seem to be historically traceable to some extent, if nothing else, as a reference to what cultures of the time believed. The biases they had then can oftentimes be lost forever when read from a modern mindset, and those biases can often paint the language they used to refer to certain things.

For example, when Moses comes down from the mountain and the Israelites were worshiping an idol in the shape of a "golden calf." People in those days didn't have a calf as a god that they worshipped. El was often represented as a bull. The writers of that story framed El as "only a calf" to belittle and disrespect him as a deity, it seems.

"Ēl is called again and again Tôru ‘Ēl ("Bull Ēl" or "the bull god")."

""El" (Father of Heaven / Saturn) and his major son: "Hadad" (Father of Earth / Jupiter), are symbolized both by the bull, and both wear bull horns on their headdresses.[23][24][25][26]"


El (deity) - Wikipedia

A lot of Christians didn't know that, and so depictions of the israelites with the "golden calf" are often done so in taking the bible literally when the story was being figurative and symbolic in that moment.

1101978090_univ_lsr_xl.jpg
Thee are plenty of people on RF who doubt that Moses, Joseph, Jacob, Isaac and Abraham existed.

I don't believe that the Bible is 'legend' is the same sense as, say, Homer's writings. Yet, I know that much of what Homer wrote was based on actual places and real events. I've visited Troy!
 

SigurdReginson

Grēne Mann
Premium Member
Thee are plenty of people on RF who doubt that Moses, Joseph, Jacob, Isaac and Abraham existed.

I don't believe that the Bible is 'legend' is the same sense as, say, Homer's writings. Yet, I know that much of what Homer wrote was based on actual places and real events. I've visited Troy!

Oh, I'm jealous! That's so cool. :D
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Sir William Muir, in his 'Life of Mohammad' says, 'In the days of Jacob we find Arab traders carrying the spiceries of Gilead on their camels down to Egypt. During the reign of Solomon a naval station was formed at Elath, the modern Acaba; the 'kings of Arabia' and its merchantmen supplied Judea with the rarities of the East; and so widely throughout the peninsula was the fame of the Jewish monarch noised aboard, that the queen of Sheba came from the far south to visit him. In the reign of Augustus, Aelius Gallus, starting with a Roman army from the northern shores of the Red Sea, penetrated to the south probably as far as Mareb and Saba; but after some months was forced, by treachery and scarcity of water, to retrace his steps.'
 

Alex22

Member
Thee are plenty of people on RF who doubt that Moses, Joseph, Jacob, Isaac and Abraham existed.

I don't believe that the Bible is 'legend' is the same sense as, say, Homer's writings. Yet, I know that much of what Homer wrote was based on actual places and real events. I've visited Troy!

How are talking snakes and donkeys, magic men rising from the dead and zombies roaming around Jerusalem not legend?
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
For example, when Moses comes down from the mountain and the Israelites were worshiping an idol in the shape of a "golden calf." People in those days didn't have a calf as a god that they worshipped. El was often represented as a bull. The writers of that story framed El as "only a calf" to belittle and disrespect him as a deity, it seems.
Wouldn't it make more sense for it to have represented an Egyptian deity?
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
People in those days didn't have a calf as a god that they worshipped. El was often represented as a bull. The writers of that story framed El as "only a calf" to belittle and disrespect him as a deity, it seems.

Really?

The choice of this idol was no accident. It was a symbol of virility and strength associated with the Canaanite god El, and such idolatry would persist into the period of the divided monarchy. King Jeroboam I of the Northern Kingdom of Israel commissioned two golden calves for the sanctuaries of Yahweh in Bethel and Dan, to serve as the Lord’s attendants. Some scholars believe that Aaron’s golden calf was not meant to displace God, but to make him more tangible to the Israelites, using Canaanite iconography that would become known throughout Israel. [ National Geographic ]

Apparently, it "seems" differently to others.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Thanks for this truly amazing evidence. Let's now turn to some similar genealogical lists such as ...

Capture+4.JPG

The biblical genealogies are of men, not gods.

The question is how far back is one prepared to go with these human genealogies.

Noah's three sons have provided us with geographical locations on earth, with their later descendants giving rise to towns and cities within these regions. Do you doubt this?
 

SigurdReginson

Grēne Mann
Premium Member
Really?

The choice of this idol was no accident. It was a symbol of virility and strength associated with the Canaanite god El, and such idolatry would persist into the period of the divided monarchy. King Jeroboam I of the Northern Kingdom of Israel commissioned two golden calves for the sanctuaries of Yahweh in Bethel and Dan, to serve as the Lord’s attendants. Some scholars believe that Aaron’s golden calf was not meant to displace God, but to make him more tangible to the Israelites, using Canaanite iconography that would become known throughout Israel. [ National Geographic ]

Apparently, it "seems" differently to others.

Oh! Interesting. I looked into the author of that piece, since I'd not heard of him before.

This writer has more of a religious perspective. He has some interesting credentials as well.

Jean-Pierre Isbouts - Wikipedia

"Jean-Pierre Isbouts (born 1954) is a professor in the Social Sciences PhD program of Fielding Graduate University in Santa Barbara, California,[2] and an author, screenwriter, director, and producer of works addressing various historical periods, particularly the time period of Jesus and that of Renaissance and post-Renaissance art."

"Born in Eindhoven, the Netherlands, Isbouts studied Attic Greek and Latin, archaeology, art history and musicology at Leiden University in 1980. He received his PhD from Columbia University in New York, writing his dissertation on the American Beaux-Arts architecture firm of Carrère and Hastings. In 1983, Isbouts wrote and directed one of the first documentary works specifically created for the LaserDisc format, and "the first successful commercial videodisc to index and show art works".[3] The piece, Van Gogh Revisited, as one side of Vincent Van Gogh: A Portrait in Two Parts, examining the life and works of Vincent van Gogh; the other side features a performance of the one-man-play by its author and co-director of the project, Leonard Nimoy.[3][2]"

Though his credentials are impressive, I'm not sure just how much of a specialist in this field he could be. My ignorance doesn't really mean much, though, so I suppose it's possible that he knows his stuff in this particular field, though his comments in the article seem to be limited strictly to the context of what's gleaned from the bible itself. When you take into context the words that are first spoken in the link you provided, it leads with "The Bible’s portrayal..."

The calves of Bethel and Dan that King Jeroboam I's commissioned that the author mentions are discussed in 1 Kings 12:28-29:

"28 After seeking advice, the king made two golden calves. He said to the people, “It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem. Here are your gods, Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.” 29 One he set up in Bethel, and the other in Dan."

This has led me down a bit of a rabbit hole. Here is the wiki article discussing the golden calf.

Golden calf - Wikipedia

Under criticisms, this is an interesting thing of note:

"According to modern scholarship, there are two versions of the Ten Commandments story, in E (Exodus 20) and J (Exodus 34), this gives some antiquity and there may be some original events serving as a basis to the stories. The Golden Calf story is only in the E version and a later editor added in an explanation that God made a second pair of tablets to give continuity to the J story.[18] The actual Ten Commandments as given in Exodus 20 were also inserted by the redactor who combined the various sources.[19]"

I can't attest to the accuracy of this since I'm definitely not a biblical scholar and am not following the different variations of those texts found. I couldn't tell you anything of real value in this field.

But! Upon further research, it seems calves have been found. I've been looking in the wrong spots, apparently. :DHere is one that was dug up recently.

3628.jpg


Ashkelon Calf and Its Shrine

So, it seems I was mistaken! I had thought that no religious depictions of calves have been found, and only bulls, so that turns out that I seem to have been wrong. It is plausible that golden calves were erected in a similar way that the story suggests. :)

Thanks for sending me down this path! :D
 

SigurdReginson

Grēne Mann
Premium Member
Wouldn't it make more sense for it to have represented an Egyptian deity?

I don't know. What makes you think it would make more sense for this to be a representation of an Egyptian deity? Exodus 32:4-5 says:

"He [Aaron] took the gold from them, formed it in a mold, and cast an image of a calf; and they said, "These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt!" When Aaron saw this, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation and said, "Tomorrow shall be a festival to the LORD (Yahweh).""

Interesting that "gods" is mentioned in that verse in the plural.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Hmmm... This is my first time hearing about the Israelites worshiping the Egyptian deities. How did you come to this conclusion?
Actually, the Bible says it was only a small minority of 3000 people who were involved in the sin (this is the number of people killed by the Levites). So it's not the Israelites in general. Furthermore, a midrash points out that they said "these are your gods" not "these are our gods", so the midrash says that this is because the main people involved in the sin were the mixed multitude.

Now I don't have any evidence that these people worshiped Egyptian gods in particular, but it seems logical to me.
 
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