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Historicity of Jesus

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
I suggest you watch the video. He speaks about other sources aside from Josephus that historians fairly unanimously agree are authentic, and he explains a probable reason why there was a lack of information about his existence until later. :)
This is just my opinion.......

Sadly the historians mentioned in the film never met with or saw Jesus, just heard about him, so their evidence is secondary, tertiary or hear-say.
However, the Gospel of Mark does seem to be a fairly solid deposition about Jesus and what he did, once the evangelical edits, manipulations and fiddlings have been discovered.

Matthew and Luke needed to copy Mark, so they weren't there or they would have written their own accounts, and the first and last sections of their gospels are junk.

Apostle John did have some useful bits of info, but he changed the person of Jesus, his mission and his real enemies in to a complete fabrication..... he was never there and didn't have a clue about what his namesake John-the-disciple really did.

Jesus was real........ the Christian spin was junk, but totally amazing in that it eventually duped and controlled hundreds of millions.


A lot of the sources he talks about didn't see Jesus or his followers in a positive light, and it's interesting to see how early Christianity was viewed from the outside from the mindset of ancient Romans.
I'm always interested to hear about and read the early critics and supporters of Jesus because they can assist in a balance of possibilities, but the only balance of probability comes from G-Mark, snippets from the other gospels and early first century Palestinian history/archaeology.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
In Luke gospel Jesus comes back to the temple to teach everyday without a whip, perhaps a tongue lashing, but no whip.
What did Jesus and his disciples do in the Temple during the first day of that last week.

Do you know? Can you answer? Let's see......
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Oh puhleeze. It says he took a whip. that's assault.
But Apostle John wrote that.
Absolute drivvle, his account of the Temple incident.
Wrong time, Wrong actions, ......... and John wasn't there, didn't have a clue about the exciting things that disciple-John actually experienced.

Useful bits of info but a total perversion of the real story. Sad.
 

lukethethird

unknown member
Moral violence only. But John's account is emphatic about the physical violence, the Trumpian character of the protagonist.
Trumpian, I don't know, Jesus was actually capable of using his hands to make a whip on the spot that proved to be rather effective.

And in all cases, as I said, the attacks, moral or physical, were misguided, and should have been aimed at the Temple authorities.
Agree.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Basic common sense humans exist first.

The storyteller.

Who says the occult...science is evil.

Yet to argue they first also agreed with scientific advice.

The CAD. Describes theists. Scientists sacrificed innocent human life. A cade my.

Used Symbolism. Like a lamb I was slaughtered advice.

Seeing he was an adult. Theist scientists men adults. Men abuse babies and children with no human family parent honour.

As described. To tell a story sometimes symbolism made the human think for theirselves instead of being baby adult indoctrinated.

So says the poor man who healed served his family with his sister.

The innocent never a scientist is owner of the experience. Becomes the non scientist storyteller.

As the did not believe not agree with scientific indoctrination. Civilisation enforced preaching teaching.

Then has to argue.

Science 100 per cent wrong. Human self has to agree to argue.

Bible the argument self contradiction stated.....
No man is God. Innocent human correct advice.

Do not give God any names. Alchemy all earth practices forbidden. Innocent correct. Human law oath on a shut book it's owned proof. To tell nothing but the truth so help me God.

Jesus a story about a man determining occult science as per described experience that had attacked his human life. His cells. His blood. His bones.

Told the incorrect story science owning an agreement with occult advice to state yet as a human I am innocent. Father why don't they believe me?
Status.

Cloud images own the body image of man recorded sacrificed. Above the mountains. The wooden cross burning bush status of nature garden sacrificed at same time.

Seeing three men bodies of the cross when earth renders itself to opening itself into destruction. Trinity equals equals equals.

Stating three wise men in philosophy against science were historically ignored. Abraham. Moses then Jesus.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Did Jesus take a whip and drive out the businessmen? Yes or no.
Mark (c. 45 CE)
Mark 11:15 And they came to Jerusalem. And he entered the temple and began to drive out those who sold and those who bought in the temple, and he overturned the tables of the money-changers and the seats of those who sold pigeons

Matthew (mid 80s CE)
Matthew 21:12 And Jesus entered the temple of God and drove out all who sold and bought in the temple, and he overturned the tables of the money-changers and the seats of those who sold pigeons.

Luke (mid 80s CE)
Luke 19:45 And he entered the temple and began to drive out those who sold,

John (mid 90s CE)
John 2:14 In the temple he found those who were selling oxen and sheep and pigeons, and the money-changers at their business.15 And making a whip of cords, he drove them all, with the sheep and oxen, out of the temple; and he poured out the coins of the money-changers and overturned their tables.

So affray, assault, battery, public disturbance, wilful damage occasioning financial loss, and who knows what else? A shame there's no police record, or at least none that's survived.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Jesus and the disciples went sightseeing (in today's vernacular). True!
This is one of the reasons that some think Jesus was not his day's equivalent of an Orthodox Jew. If he was, he wouldn't have gone sightseeing in Jerusalem when he was in his 30s - he should have already been familiar with the city by that time, even if he was from the Galilee, having made pilgrimage to the city at least once a year, if not more (it was difficult making pilgrimage 3 times + Yom Kippur every year). As he appears to be unfamiliar with the city, it seems as though this was one of his very first times there.
 

lukethethird

unknown member
I think an interesting comment Ehrman made (which is relevant to the historicity of Jesus, IMO) is that there were many preachers at the time of Jesus. Ehrman argued Jesus was just one among many. Given that this was a very common practice (i.e., to preach some random apocalyptic religion), there is nothing extraordinary with the idea that a preacher called Jesus existed.

The counter-apologist and historian Richard Carrier argues against the historicity of Jesus, but even he admitted that it is not very improbable that Jesus existed. Carrier said it is a "50/50" chance that Jesus existed.

Dr. Carrier seems to think that Paul's letter which mentions "James, the brother of the lord" is the best evidence for Jesus' historicity, but Carrier has some arguments against it as well. Robert Price tried to show that this letter is a forgery in one of his books, but the consensus is that it is not a forgery.

Anyway, this stuff is very interesting, but I'm not an expert or anything. Just sharing some points I remember. :)
Carrier gives Jesus a 30% chance of being historical, not 50. Brother of the Lord is not good evidence at all but yes, probably the best there is so it's not saying much. It would be nice to know if Jesus existed I suppose, but for now we just have to be content with writings written for theological and mythological purposes.
 
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