I would only ask whether you consider it to be the same understanding for thousands of years. This ill-defined, or literally undefined label 'god' gets thrown around as if everyone is talking about the same thing/things.
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Convinced of a God
- Thread starter SigurdReginson
- Start date
I would only ask whether you consider it to be the same understanding for thousands of years. This ill-defined, or literally undefined label 'god' gets thrown around as if everyone is talking about the same thing/things.
What we imagine does not have physical reality outside of our imagination. That we can share abstract non-physical ideas does not mean the ideas physically exist external to thought. We can talk about unicorns and some may claim to believe in unicorns, but they do not physically exist. The question is about what is required to be convinced that a unicorn or an entity labeled 'god' physically exists.
Yes. A clearer way to say would be looking at the difference between beliefs and faith. Faith is a reaching, an intuition, an impulse, and beliefs are ideas surrounding that impulse. Beliefs are mental supports for faith.
For instance, someone's heart may say to them, 'there is more to my existence than just atoms and molecules', as it inuits a Self, an Ultimate Truth about existence'. That's an impulse that draws the mind to wonder beyond itself. I recall this as a young man of 17 asking those questions, decades ago. That's an inner sense, a certain reaching towards that ultimate Mystery. That's the central impulse.
Then there are beliefs which try to create a structure of symbols and words to create an edifice to hang these "ornaments of the spirit" upon. We take that intangible sense of ultimate Truth, or Reality, and try to put a face upon it. That's what "belief in God" is. That face may be the face of the Buddha. It may be the face of Christ. It may be that great Mystery, "God beyond God". All of these are simply the mind trying to create a mental structure to express or relate to, or to "believe in" as matters of Truth, Beauty, and Goodness.
The problem comes for people is mistaking their beliefs about God, for the actuality of the Divine itself, or that Ultimate Reality. They substitute beliefs for faith. It's no longer about what the heart senses about itself in connection with Reality, that inner faith, but it becomes about outer beliefs. That's the contrast right there. Inner faith versus outer beliefs. People confuse these.
I would put it more as realized or don't realize. But in reality, it's all a spectrum and we all fit in somewhere on that single line. It's something that when you realize it, you realize it has always been that all along. It's just that what you were seeing before, was what you believed was true. This is something the mystics of all religions say to that "waking up" experience.
So yes, very much is something experienced. But that experience is the result of a radical shift in perception. What I think can express it better is to say everything is experienced differently, all of reality itself is of a different quality, because of that shift. It's a difficult thing to try to express. Your perceptual reality shifts, and that creates an experience of being that is radically more awake and aware than it was previously.
I believe when people experience that shift of consciousness, which is what that is, they may interpret that as something that happened "to them" from outside of themselves. So they externalize it, even though it came from within themselves. It's a mind filter that it goes through which splits things apart dualistically.
As I said in so many words, the mind creates an image of reality which we then "believe in". Experiencing that Absolute, tends to dramatically disrupt that illusion. Faith then, is what works in the opposite direction of that illusion of the mind. It call the heart to listen, and realizing thinking about reality is not really what reality really is.
An idol of the mind?
I don't know. Placeholders for intellectual exercises? Those are all mental constructs. The trick is to know how to use critical reason and faith to their fullest, without collapsing into just an intellectual exercise, or ungrounded and scattered spirituality.
Justanatheist
Well-Known Member
I cannot conceive of a god that I could conceive of. Any god would be so far beyond our comprehension it is pointless to think about it.
Heyo
Veteran Member
That isn't really a question for Agnostics. Our creed is "I don't know (and neither do you)". "God" is not a concept that means something to me. And there is no dictionary definition that even a significant minority of believers would agree to. Thus, for me believing in the existence of a specific god, you'd first have to explain what you mean by god. Then we can discuss the evidence for that specific god.This is more of a topic for atheists and agnostics, but I will leave this open as a general religious debate to encourage free discussion for all perspectives to weigh in.
What would it take for you, personally, to accept that a god or gods exist?
I want you to think deeply on this... Think about your toolset that you use to distinguish what's real and what's not. Are you skeptically minded? What would it take to satisfy your skepticism?
Does a god need to be intelligent to be a god? Does a god need to be super natural to be a god? Does a god need to objectively exist to be a god, or can it exist within the confines of your mind or personal experiences in life? Is the label of "god" just weighed down by too much presumptive baggage?
I know this is a question that's been raked over a million times, but I guess what I'm getting at is that I want to know what each person's idea of god is, and what it would take for this god to live up to your personal expectations of what roles it should fill before you would use the label of "god" in reference to it. How would this god influence the lives of others (if at all)?
I like to cite my unchallenged prove of god to illustrate this:
P1: Clapton is god.
P2: Clapton exists.
C: God exists.
Who do you know that claims God physically exists? Who defined God there? Mormons?
Aye, I've experienced this myself when I was leaving Christianity. I came to realise that there were a lot of things I had stopped believing, but they were still very much directing my thoughts because they were so deeply engrained into my subconscious. I had to literally sit down and force my brain to stop fearing the concept of hell among other things, and that took a lot of effort and time to finally snap out of it and remove it from my thought processes altogether.
Adjusting my beliefs has become a much easier thing for me now in the light of better evidence - it's almost effortless now. It's a very freeing thing to not have one's mind restricted by barriers - especially when you aren't even aware that those barriers were even there to begin with.
It's dangerous territory, though. If one doesn't have a good grasp of what's going on, it can be easy to slip into dilusion...
An idol of the mind?
I mean, hypothetically, what would you call a maximally powerful being that actually exists and created everything, but doesn't give spiritual fulfillment? It's intelligent, thinking, and has a plan where people aren't even an afterthought - they are just a byproduct of the creation process. We are a happy accident. Would that fulfill your criteria of a god? If not, what else would it be?
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
I don't have a conception of a deity apart from movies (no pun), mythology, etc. No entities.
How I understand god from others is akin to spiritual awakening. Something Is life itself and/or a breathe that sustains life.
With that, a spiritual awakening. I think I'm in the middle of one but I don't see a source so no god. It is what it is.
I'm skeptical but I wasn't raised religious to pay it mind.
No. How can life be intelligent?
I've heard life is conscious/god consciousness but no explanation as to how.
I wouldn't know. I don't feel like there's a creator.
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I feel like you and I are on a somewhat similar path despite how different our lives are.
Exalted ones are a proof of God and his treasured signs. But even they can't see beyond themselves and into God very own essence, but they know for sure that the power he gives them and majestic light stems from Him and that through reason know God is the absolute source with no limit and is absolute and there is but one God by his sheer size, nothing can be with him but rather all life, power, honor, greatness, will, knowledge, wisdom, light, stems from him. And the way to see God through the chosen ones and signs within yourself, is to realize God is the light of all light.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Reason.
1. It has to be intelligent.
2. there is no difference between supernatural and natural with God.
3. God is necessary.
4. Yes. the label God is weighed down by too many presumptive baggage.
Why should anyone think that there are any worthy of exaltation with any special relationship to reason when anyone has access to reason? I mean... There are professors of logic, but even they aren't immune to being illogical from time to time.
Anyone can say that god is the source of everything through their reasoning, but wouldn't that just be superimposing your subjective understanding onto your surroundings irrespective of what objective reality suggests? I mean... We all have subjective beliefs about objective reality, but it's a different story when I tell others that their subjective understanding is wrong because my subjective understanding is actually objectively true.
Who do you know that claims God physically exists? Who defined God there? Mormons?
Physical, Imagination, Nonexistent. Where shall the entity be placed?
Are we talking about convincing atheists? Or we talking about why people believe in God? The main reason people believe in God is because God is the light of all light including our own light. Some people have had supernatural experiences, but, at the end of it, most people see God's signs within and he is the blessed one in the fire the foundation of all light. We don't see his actually essence, but we see the glory one with the source and emerging and going back to the source.
Hmmm... There is good reason and bad reason. Why would/should reason be the sole identifier?
Ok. No sun worship!
I'm not sure what this means... Could you unpack this more, please?
Hmmm... Do you mean, God is necessary as an objective force, or that God is necessary as an aspect of reality?
Agreed!
Well, the point of this thread is to ask atheists and agnostics what it would take to convince them that a god exists. With that said, though. I do appreciate and welcome your input.
I don't know what that means...
I mean, these things sound pretty, but they look like deepities to me: flowery, poetic words without any real value. What does "light of all light" look like in my daily life? How do I associate or interact with it?
I believe the source of value includes all levels of value and for value to have meaning, it must have a foundation and be based on eternal reality. I don't see any value in anything but that I see God in it. I even taste God in food, see him in the laughter of kids, and tears of the lovers because I understand God's Name is by which all reality is derived from and returns to, and God's Name is with all things, and God's Name unites all blessings and glory and beauty. That is why when I eat food no matter what taste, I see it as a manifestation of God as well.
You see him existing in your presence and absence....he lives within you but also beyond you. The whole world manifests God in some way, all things are signs of his beauty or glory. If you see the oneness of his signs and light all pointing to him, then vision of God becomes easy. Then you work on taking more traits of his name and image, and try to unite as much glory and beauty and aspects of praise within your soul every day and work to ascend towards him.
What is the difference between seeing these signs and deluding one's own mind into seeing these signs?