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EightyOne

Member
I have recently left another forum due to the extreme level of immaturity among the users participating in religious discussion - mostly from the so-called "Christians." After briefly browsing through the forums, I am pleased to see two things:

1) There appears to be a good deal of civility among members.
2) The number of Christians seems to be relatively low.

My second point is not to imply that I hold something against Christians; however, it has been my experience that they are very militant and antagonizing. I am actually an ex-Christian myself, having renounced my faith in March of 2004. The process of losing faith was a very long process, but I will be willing to type out the story if anyone is actually interested. After renouncing Christianity, I had considered myself a Deist, later an Agnostic-Deist, and now I am simply Agnostic.

I hope to find interesting discussions here, and if so, I will most likely consider supporting this site.
 

robtex

Veteran Member
Good to meet you. What specfic circumstances made you renounce your faith and were you raised a Christian? When you decided you were no longer a Christian how did your church handle it or your Christian friends? This is a unique place I doubt you will find another quite like it. Look forward to your insight and glad to make your aquiantence
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
Welcome to the Forum that ROCKS!!!

it has been my experience that they are very militant and antagonizing
Not real Christians. They concentrate more on love than on being militant and antagonizing.
 

EightyOne

Member
What specfic circumstances made you renounce your faith...?

Actually, I just remembered that I will not be having to type out the whole story - I saved a copy the last I did it.

My doubts first started to surface after reading George Orwell's 1984. If you've read the book, then you already know about the torture/brain-washing incident, and for some reason, I saw within that scene a representation of the god of the Bible and the image of Hell - needless cruelty by one who claims to act in love. It is strange that it first struck me from this book, because I had debated the moral justification for Hell numerous times online and with a friend of mine. But I suppose it was simply the last straw, so to speak.

So I began to consider all the arguments I had heard concerning the unjust nature of Hell, which I had already thought about before, but simply decided to brush them off saying, "We can't understand God's sense of justice because he is so much higher than us, but we can trust that Hell is just, etc."

I used to tell this to others and myself all the time, but at this point in time it just was not cutting it anymore - it no longer sufficied as a good explanation to me. There is no reason why somone should be punished infinitely for a finite number of sins. There is no reason why a good Buddhist, who advocates the same brotherly love taught by the New Testament, should be damned to eternal torments simply because he thought thing about Jesus. And even more importantly to me, how could I be happy in heaven if any of my parents, siblings, or children were to be condemned to suffer in agony for all eternity, having no hope of being restored to fellowship with me? There was simply no way I could be happy with someone who would torture my loved ones.

This doctrine of eternal damnation appeared to me as the work of a demon, rather than a god. There was simply no excuse good enough to justify these actions. I do not care how holy the god of the Bible supposedly is, or how terrible sin is in his opinion - nobody deserves such a punishment. If the sinner must be punished, then annihilate them, end their existence. Even the serial killers and mass murderers of our century had shown more mercy than the Biblical god by allowing their victims to be laid to rest in death. This god would not even give do this much, nor would he even follow his own teachings:

Matthew 5:44
"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you."

Yahweh will be doing no loving of his enemies, and he will certainly not be doing any good to those who hate him.

Reflecting on these issues and some others I have already forgotten by now, I realized that I could no longer honestly defend this god, or demon, rather. But, believing that there was a god of some sort, I prayed one night with tears in my eyes that I be shown something the next day that would reconcile this teaching of Hell. The next night, I had actually completely forgotten about this request, but had done a Google search for "hell" just to look at some extremist website for some laughs - http://www.av1611.org/hell.html - but off to side, I saw this site:

http://bible-truths.com/

I had spent the next few weeks going through this man's Biblical defense for the doctrine of "universal reconciliation," in which all mankind is ultimately saved, and I found them to be very well established. The details are quite expansive, so I'd rather not get into them - just go through his "Exposing Those Who Contradict" letter if you're interested.

So I was a universal reconcilist for quite a while, but there were issues concerning this man's interpretations that I believed may have been a little too much of a stretch. However, I felt that he did adequately defend the basic idea that Yahweh must save all mankind - especially due to two passages:

I Timothy 2:3-4
"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

Isaiah 46:10-11
"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it."

Yahweh wants all men to be saved, and Yahweh will do all his pleasure, thus, the logical conclusion: All mankind will be saved.

Realizing that I was wrong in my previous beliefs about Hell, I considered for the first time, "What if I might be wrong altogether?" So I finally decided to hear out the criticisms of Christianity and, little by little, I began to see all my reasons for belief were gradually being whittled away. And I can assure you that I had a lot of reasons - I had actually written a 12-page essay in my freshman year of college in defense of the historical credibility of the Bible. The infidels.org website had contributed a lot to this change, especially Farrell Till's articles in The Skeptical Review:

http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/index.shtml

Even though I had pretty much lost nearly every logical reason for my faith, I still held to my beliefs due to what Christians will call the "testimony of the Holy Spirit." It is a rather vague concept associated with the idea that the Holy Spirit - the third part of the Trinity - enters the heart of the believer and provides them with a peace and assurance of salvation and what-not.

However, as I learned about Taoism in a world civilizations course, I had found the teachings to be interesting and decided to read the Tao Te Ching. I approached the book with an open attitude, hoping to get something out of it, and as I neared the end of the text, I had experienced the same feeling that I have had many times in my affairs with Christianity. Upon coming across a profound Bible verse, hearing an influential sermon, and the like, I would find myself being overcome with a deep sense of peace and overwhelming joy all at once within my heart - something which pastors and preachers the world-over equate with the Holy Spirit. Yet, I had the same exact by reading the Tao Te Ching. I understood that this feeling of the "Holy Spirit" was nothing more than pure emotionalism - a feeling that anyone could get out of any religion that strikes their fancy. So, a couple days later, I pretty much realized it was time to renounce Christianity.

The decision was further reinforced and completely finalized by reading these two works by Thomas Paine:

http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/thomas_paine/age_of_reason/

http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/thomas_paine/examine_prophecies.html

And that was the end of that.

Within the months following March, I have continued to study religious issues - especially in the areas of Biblical criticism - and I have found the arguments against Christianity to grow stronger with every work I read.

...were you raised a Christian? When you decided you were no longer a Christian how did your church handle it or your Christian friends?

Yes, I was raised Christian. I had attended a Christian baptist school from preschool to graduation.

I was never really active in the church, with the exception of occasionally helping my mother out when she taught Sunday school (I am 19-years-old). So, I basically just left without informing anyone, and without hearing anything from people at the church. Well, the pastor and some other person sent me cards for my birthday - I should probably tell them to take me off their mailing list.

As for friends, I really only had one Christian friend, and it was not a big deal to him. He wondered what influenced my decision, but he made no efforts to dissuade me.

The only person who actually seemed to care was my mother - a devout Christian. The blow of my confession was probably mitigated due to the fact that my older sister had renounced Christianity and converted to Islam a year or two earlier. That ordeal with my sister had been quite shocking to my mother and their relationship had grown tense for some time; however, they eventually reconciled and that probably gave her a broader understanding and tolerance for my decision - not to mention that I had previously shown her that "universal reconciliation," and she had adopted to the teaching.
 

EightyOne

Member
Not real Christians. They concentrate more on love than on being militant and antagonizing.

True. Unfortunately, true Christians are a dying breed on the verge of extinction.
 

Master Vigil

Well-Known Member
I too get the same feeling every time I read the Tao Te Ching. And for a taoist, the feeling you felt would be given honor to chi. Which can also be said to control and be controlled by emotions, so your theory still stands. As the Tao Te Ching says, words are not what is important, so the different names we give it mean nothing. But welcome to the forums my friend. And I hope you have a great time here.
 

robtex

Veteran Member
wow what a story 81. Interesting about your mother raising her children as Christians only to lose one to Islam and the other all together. I hope your mother will grow from this in a positive way seeing that there is a whole world with different thoughts and theories.

I laughed when you started talking about infidels.org. I have met more than a few ex-Christians online who met their demise (or enlightment) via infidels.org. I personally find the sight very spirtual and appealing.

As a newly de-converted Christian I want to share something with you. I have a muslim friend Reza whom I have qouted on here before and would like to do so now because it applys to you at this juncture of your life.

One day I asked him how he was able to deal with being a muslim living in a Christian land. He said, "Robert, what you believe is not who you are. It is just what you believe. How you act and what you do is who you are."

Remember that when you meet Christians. They are Christians because they believe in the resurrection of Christ (and other Christian beliefs) but please if you evaulate or assess them do so for what they do and how they are as opposed to what they believe.

I have personally found many Christians on here that I am very fond of and I am confident that you will too.
 

Ceridwen018

Well-Known Member
Many welcomes, EightyOne! We're glad to have you here! I promise you that these forums are every bit as enlightening and entertaining as they appear. This truly is a great place--I predict that you will soon become as hopelessly addicted as the rest of us! :)
 

The Voice of Reason

Doctor of Thinkology
Welcome Eighty One -

It appears to be a small world. I was born in Tripler Army Hospital in Honolulu, I'm an Agnostic, and I was raised as a Christian. Where are you in the Islands?

TVOR
 

martha

Active Member
Aloha!:) Having never been to your part of the world, I hpoe I spelled that correctly.

Welcome to the forum. I know you will find many here you can dialog with, in peace. Blessings to you and Happy New Year!

Joufully,
Martha
 

Feathers in Hair

World's Tallest Hobbit
Hello, and welcome! I know I'm just adding in my voice to the many, but there have been a number of people here who have helped heal my perception of Christianity.
 

EightyOne

Member
Remember that when you meet Christians. They are Christians because they believe in the resurrection of Christ (and other Christian beliefs) but please if you evaulate or assess them do so for what they do and how they are as opposed to what they believe.
Yes, I usually try to avoid generalizations - I will be sure to keep that in mind.

Where are you in the Islands?
Mililani, Oahu.
 

The Voice of Reason

Doctor of Thinkology
Where is Mililani? Is it on the west side of the island - near Maili?

TVOR

PS - my first girlfriend's name was Pili Lani (Closest to Heaven) - but I was in the first grade. I wonder if she's missing me now? :)
 
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