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Real Polytheism

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Yeah, it is, that is where the sages go. But we are not sages.
Well, as an atheist who can use religion, I wonder how some people for the poly in religion, philosophy and science concentrate on one.
Even if they do because of their inclination, they do not forget or belittle others. That is considered a sin in Hinduism.
Many Hindus will have a chosen deity, but they will not deny others. Many would venerate all equally.
And what, pray tell, is the purpose of polytheism?
The same as that in monotheism, minus their insistence of on One God.
I'm confused at folks calling themselves polytheists when many are clearly henotheists.
Hinduism accepts all sorts of "isms". You are confused because the culture that you come from does not have that freedom of belief.
Agnosticism, Atheism, Deism, Henotheism, Ietsism, Ignosticism, Monotheism, Monism, Dualism, Monolatry, Kathenotheism, Omnism, Pandeism, Panentheism, Polytheism, Transtheism.
Perhaps it so that if you can't get permission from one parent you can get it from the other.
What one Hindu God will not permit, will not be permitted by other Gods or Goddesses as well. All deities will uphold 'Dharma'. Getting a lollypop from some deity does not matter much.
 
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Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
I guess my confusion stems from the fact that if you're basically just going to worship one god exclusively, why not go for a religion that has only one?
Having a choice is better rather than not having any. Hinduism does not deny worship of your chosen One. But, is belittling others necessary for that? Hinduism has historically accepted even atheism. You are not correct when you associate exclusivity with Hinduism.
 
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Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
Having a choice is better rather than not having any. Hinduism does not deny worship of your chosen One. But, is belittling others necessary for that? Hinduism has historically accepted even atheism. You are not correct when you associate exclusivity with Hinduism.
I haven't tried to belittle anyone, nor have I even mentioned Hinduism.
 

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
I'd like to write a somewhat lengthy post here about what I've learned from reading about the AE stuff so far but I'm in bed and can't be bothered so it will have to wait til later :sweatsmile: I broadly agree with Harel's premise.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
I guess my confusion stems from the fact that if you're basically just going to worship one god exclusively, why not go for a religion that has only one?
Having a choice is better rather than not having any. Hinduism does not deny worship of your chosen One. But, is belittling others necessary for that? Hinduism has historically accepted even atheism. You are not correct when you associate exclusivity with Hinduism.
I haven't tried to belittle anyone, nor have I even mentioned Hinduism.
Allow me to parse my reply in two parts.

Having a choice is better rather than not having any. - This part was a reply to your first post as one from a polytheistic religion.
Hinduism does not deny worship of your chosen One. But, is belittling others necessary for that? Hinduism has historically accepted even atheism. You are not correct when you associate exclusivity with Hinduism. - This part was general information for Hinduism.

I understand that you were not belittling anyone, and that Hinduism was not mentioned by name (but the post was about polytheistic religions)
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
I wonder if many polytheists were like that.
I think, Charak, the founder of Indian system of Medicine, Ayurveda, must have been like that. Researching flowers, shrubs, fruits, barks, roots, and metallic material which was used to prepare medicines. Even Mercury (Parad Bhasma - I suppose they mixed mercury with various ashes and then removed the mercury). They get it from Cinnabar. They have bhasmas of other metals also Gold, Silver, Copper, Zinc, Iron, etc. Bhasma means ash.

INR 22 (USD 0.30)/kg - Well, real economical.
Benefits of Parad Bhasma: Some of its actions are - acts as vrishya (aphrodiasic), balya (tonic), snigdha, rasayana (rejuvenate), vrana shodhana and ropana (wound healing),krimighna (antimicrobial) and yogavahi. (PDF) Significance of Parad in Rasashastra - A review

Of course, I am a total Allopathy person and do not ever think of using alternate medicine.

parad-bhasma-ke-fayde.jpg
 
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Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
I think, Charak, the founder of Indian system of Medicine, Ayurveda, must have been like that. Researching flowers, shrubs, fruits, barks, roots, and metallic material which was used to prepare medicines. Even Mercury (Parad Bhasma - I suppose they mixed mercury with various ashes and then removed the mercury). They get it from Cinnabar.
INR 22 (USD 0.30)/kg - Well, real economical.
Benefits of Parad Bhasma: Some of its actions are - acts as vrishya (aphrodiasic), balya (tonic), snigdha, rasayana (rejuvenate), vrana shodhana and ropana (wound healing),krimighna (antimicrobial) and yogavahi. (PDF) Significance of Parad in Rasashastra - A review

Of course, I am a total Allopathy person and do not ever think of using alternate medicine.

parad-bhasma-1617447563-5777475.jpeg
I think you missed my point lol.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
And in a practical sense how many gods could one person dedicate him/herself to anyway?
I count 14 as major Gods and Goddesses. Shiva, Parvati, Ganesha, Kartikeya, Vishnu, Lakshmi, Rama, Sita, Krishna, Rukmani, Durga, Saraswati, Hanuman, Brahma.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
Of the comments here the ones that struck me the most informative is likening multiple gods to multiple occupational specialists, and likening polytheism to democracy.

You seek individuals who sponsor your craft or embody a craft you need in your life, but have a general respect for all crafts and craftsmen.

And a pantheon like a democracy, division of power to specialists goes smoother than a single leader dictatorship.


I'm not sure this is true of all monotheisms.

In some cases, the 'pantheon' - that divine democracy of 'occupational specialists', to use the analogy above - has simply been re-defined and 'demoted' by the belief in one supreme God, yet not completely eviscerated.

When St. Thomas Aquinas (c. 1225–1274) declared in Q110 of his Summa Theologiae: "all corporeal things are ruled by the angels. This is not only laid down by the holy doctors, but also by all philosophers who admit the existence of incorporeal substances", how far in substance is that, really, from the famous statement by the ancient pagan philosopher Thales of Miletus (623 – c. 548 BCE): "the whole world is full of gods"? It's basically just a monotheist re-adaption.

It was the mainstream belief amongst orthodox Christian theologians - from the earliest centuries of the church right through the middle ages - that God had assigned spiritual principles (a caretaker class of bodiless angels, pure spiritual intellects), to minister over material creation on his behalf so that each angelic being could be seen as governing elements of the material world, elements which take on or incorporate the metaphysical principles the angelic beings represent. To quote one patristic authority, St. Athenagoras of Athens (c. 133 – c. 190 AD):


CHURCH FATHERS: A Plea for the Christians (Athenagoras) (newadvent.org)


"That we are not atheists, therefore, seeing that we acknowledge one God, uncreated, eternal, invisible, impassible, incomprehensible, illimitable, who is apprehended by the understanding only and the reason, who is encompassed by light, and beauty, and spirit, and power ineffable, by whom the universe has been created through His Logos, and set in order, and is kept in being — I have sufficiently demonstrated...

Nor is our teaching in what relates to the divine nature confined to these points; but we recognise also a multitude of angels and ministers, whom God the Maker and Framer of the world distributed and appointed to their several posts by His Logos, to occupy themselves about the elements, and the heavens, and the world, and the things in it, and the goodly ordering of them all."


For this reason, the fourth century father St. Augustine of Hippo - in his dialogues with pagan friends - had expressed no issue with the term 'god' (lowercase) being used for them, so long as one understood it as a relative term, and did not conflate these lower divinities with the One God, the creator beyond all creation:


"If the Platonists prefer to call these angels gods rather than demons, and to reckon them with those whom Plato, their founder and master, maintains were created by the supreme God, they are welcome to do so, for I will not spend strength in fighting about words. For if they say that these beings are immortal, and yet created by the supreme God, blessed but by cleaving to their Creator and not by their own power, they say what we say, whatever name they call these beings by."

(St. Augustine, City of God in NPNF1(2):178. [IX.23])​


(continued...)
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
So, I think it very much depends on the variety of monotheism we're talking about here, as they are not all identical (i.e. we don't all adhere to a doctrine as radical as Islamic Tawhid (oneness of God) and Shirk (assigning no partners to Allah) with unqualified rejection of all intermediaries).

In my own faith tradition, as you can tell from the aforementioned, the "gods" of the pre-Christian era were not denied in their actual existence (generally speaking) when the one God of the Bible was proclaimed by the early church as the only Creator and Self-existent Supreme Being, the sole recipient of worshipful adoration.

On the contrary, these supernatural beings from the traditional cults were understood anew as either angels or demons and the 'pantheon' remained in place, with the one major qualification being that one could no longer worship any lesser divinities. But if they were beneficent ones reconceived as holy angels or their attributes / qualities transposed to the cult of deceased saints, then you could still continue to venerate them, invoke their names for intercession before the Most High and practise a whole range of devotions.

It wasn't hard to transfer them into this 'angelic' realm as pre-existent, celestial beings before the divine presence. As St. Basil described it:


"The birth of the world was preceded by a condition of things suitable for the exercise of supernatural powers, outstripping the limits of time, eternal and infinite. The Creator and Demiurge of the universe perfected His works in it, spiritual light for the happiness of all who love the Lord, intellectual and invisible natures, all the orderly arrangement of pure intelligences who are beyond the reach of our mind and of whom we cannot even discover the names. They fill the essence of this invisible world, as Paul teaches us. For 'by him were all things created that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible whether they be thrones or dominions or principalities or powers' Colossians 1:16 or virtues or hosts of angels or the dignities of archangels."

(St. Basil of Caesarea [330 – 379] Hexaemeron, Homily 1.5)

The Fathers followed the rendering of Deuteronomy 32:8, evident in the earliest Qumran fragment (the manuscript evidence supports the conclusion that this is the original text), which refers to the elohim, the gods (אלהים) of the nations, as the בני אלהים, 'sons of God': "When the Most High divided the nations and distributed the children of Adam abroad, then He established the bounds of the nations according to the number of the sons of God" (Deut. 32:8) and took this very literally, as you can see from this excerpt from the writings of the third century church father Origen (184 - 253 CE):


CHURCH FATHERS: Contra Celsum, Book V (Origen) (newadvent.org)


"It appears to me, indeed, that Celsus has misunderstood some of the deeper reasons relating to the arrangement of terrestrial affairs, some of which are touched upon even in Grecian history, [concerning] certain of those who are considered to be gods...

And the learned among the Egyptians can enumerate innumerable instances of this kind, although I do not know whether they include the Jews and their country in this division.

And now, so far as testimonies outside the word of God bearing on this point are concerned, enough have been adduced for the present. We say, moreover, that our prophet of God and His genuine servant Moses, in his song in the book of Deuteronomy, makes a statement regarding the portioning out of the earth in the following terms: 'When the Most High divided the nations, when He dispersed the sons of Adam, He set the bounds of the people according to the number of the angels of God; and the portion was His people Jacob, and Israel the cord of His inheritance'...

And they were conducted by those angels, who imprinted on each his native language, to the different parts of the earth according to their deserts
."​


With that scriptural exegesis, the early Christians had no problem 'inculturating' and baptizing elements of the pagan heritage after conversion, for as St. Clement of Alexandria noted they were considered by the new monotheist faith to have been worshipping the one true God already, just in an imperfect manner through his emissaries in the natural world - the beings He had set over the human affairs as guardians:


CHURCH FATHERS: The Stromata (Clement of Alexandria) (newadvent.org)


"And that the men of highest repute among the Greeks knew God, not by positive knowledge, but by indirect expression, Peter says in the Preaching: "Know then that there is one God, who made the beginning of all things, and holds the power of the end; and is the Invisible, who sees all things; incapable of being contained, who contains all things; needing nothing, whom all things need, and by whom they are; incomprehensible, everlasting, unmade, who made all things by the 'Word of His power".

Then he adds: Worship this God not as the Greeks, — signifying plainly, that the excellent among the Greeks worshipped the same God as we, but that they had not learned by perfect knowledge that which was delivered by the Son. Do not then worship, he did not say, the God whom the Greeks worship, but as the Greeks, — changing the manner of the worship of God, not announcing another God...

[God] made a new covenant with us; for what belonged to the Greeks and Jews is old. But we, who worship Him in a new way, in the third form, are Christians. For clearly, as I think, he showed that the one and only God was known by the Greeks in a Gentile way, by the Jews Judaically, and in a new and spiritual way by us."


While many of the cultic practices directed towards the gods were, indeed, suppressed in the Christian period (i.e. blood sacrifices, Vestal Virgins with the sacred flame etc.), others were simply 'christened' and subsumed within the growing veneration of the Saints and Angels - of which their quickly became a canonized saint or guardian angel in heaven with a church-approved local or universal cult and patronage over literally every dimension of human life and the natural world, which their pagan forbears could have assigned to, or personified as, a god or goddess.

From St. Vitus the patron saint of comedians, St. Isidore the saint of farming and St. Genevieve the saint of drought, to St. Patrick the patron saint for those afraid of snakes and St. Francis the patron saint for animals and St. Valentine the patron saint of lovers, all bases were covered.

And that's before one gets to the 'celestial realm' and the order of invisible angels.

In this respect, the shift to monotheism was arguably less that of a 'theo-democracy to a theo-totalitarianism', because the local traditions, cults and 'division of power to specialists', which could be invoked for their intercession whenever the need arose in your life for their technical assistance, persisted and even thrived under the new 'Divine Leadership'.

At the level of popular piety, there was continuity as well as rupture - as in most "revolutions". Thus, the early 20th century Russian Orthodox scholar Sergius Bulgakov could write:


"Paganism, in its elemental clairvoyance, knew the heavenly foundation of the universe, but equated the angelic hierarchies with gods, or more precisely, the gods, “sons of God” (Job 1:6; 2:1), with the very God. The Christian sense and truth of Platonism is disclosed only in angelology as the doctrine about heaven and earth in their interrelations"

(Sergius Bulgakov, Jacob’s Ladder, 83)​
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
A personal theory based mostly on what ancient Jewish sources (the Tanach and Talmudic texts) say about polytheism and polytheists, together with the bit I know about the history and culture of those civilizations. And a nagging feeling that complicated theologies, at least in the West and the Middle East, are a monotheistic invention and are wrongly ascribed to those ancient polytheistic ones.

I really only familiar with Celtic and Norse polytheism but from what I know they had a very complex religious culture. For instance causeways made in the early iron age were used in votive practices and some studied show the trees used to construct or repair the causeways were only cut during a winter when there was a lunar eclipse. This requires a sophisticated knowledge of celestial patterns and complex meaning. The myths of the Norse and Celts was also quite complex with intricate symbolism and meaning. Now 19th century and early 20th century for the most part labeled them as savages but this was a result of a false over importance and superiority of the elite of that time. The same elite who treated the Irish as savages - less than human. One must be cautious in over reliance on the sources coming from the alternative religion which in your case the Jewish sources, since they have a motivation to degrade the alternative belief.
 

Alex22

Member
I worship all the Twelve Gods , it just depends on the day and month. People have patron deities though, mine is Dionysius
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
A personal theory based mostly on what ancient Jewish sources (the Tanach and Talmudic texts) say about polytheism and polytheists, together with the bit I know about the history and culture of those civilizations. And a nagging feeling that complicated theologies, at least in the West and the Middle East, are a monotheistic invention and are wrongly ascribed to those ancient polytheistic ones.

Where in the spectrum of going from general polytheism to 'hard' monotheism does the complexity emerge? In other words, are you saying that monotheism was a prerequisite for complexity, and if so, how does it allow that to occur
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
Why do polytheists dedicate to one [God] at the expense of the others?

Polytheist stories (like the Iliad and Odyssey of Homer) show that people adopt one God as a favorite (example: the God of the ocean might always be there fore them if they fish a lot).

Henoism: Elevating one God above others.

Monolatry: Worshiping one God among several.

Panentheism: God may exist in multiple places, but all are one God.

Old Testament [Jewish/Christian] Deuteronomy says "thou shalt have no other Gods before Me."

Islam states: "there is only one God and that is Yahweh."

Hindu
: Choose any manifestation of God (including Jesus).

Polygrip: Glue parrot in lieu of dentures (if lost both teeth and glasses).
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
Really? I think most Westerners with just a bit of basic historical knowledge would know about things like the priestesses of Apollo and the priests of Horus. Priests of particular deities, right?

As we walk the burning sands we spot a 60 foot boulder...carved as a sneering head in elaborate headdress. The once great civilization, which trembled at their king/God, now lies in ruins as the master of all demanded too much tribute and offered no remuneration. We can't decipher the writing nor pictures, but it is clear that there once was a powerful religion that has now been forgotten. This is the same way religions play out all over the world....only decaying stone marks vast powerful temples.

Kings united kingdoms. They enslaved workers, changed religions, and made the world that we have today. They crafted our beliefs, and many past beliefs now blow in the desert sands.
 
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