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catholics, orthodox, and protestants: can you explain the trinity?

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The hypostatic union in Christianity is the one ousias of three hypostasis. Not Jesus. Jesus is one of the hypostasis.
There are not three hypostasis. The hypostatic union refers to the human nature and the divine nature. There is one divine nature. Not three.

Dharma means teaching. Kaya means body. And it is one aspect of the Buddha in the Mahayana teachings, unlike the trinity.
The Trinity is also one aspect of Christian teachings. Not sure how you think a doctrine in one religion is different than a doctrine in another religion. A doctrine is a human attempt to understand the Mystery. Buddhism does this. So does Christianity.

IN the trinity of the athanasian creed, God, son and spirit are one but three separate beings altogether with one usia.
No trinitarian would say there are three separate beings. That's polytheism. Viewing God as a 'being' at all, in a literal, non-metaphorical sense, means God is a creature, a "thing" like a cat, or a dog, or a yeti, or something else. Thinking of the Divine in literal terms as "separate beings", is to apply a crude, gross-level, dualistic thinking to the ineffable as if it were its actuality. This is error.

So your explanation is similar to a Christian heresy called Modalism.
From what is said of Modalism historically, that God jumps between modes of being, does not reflect what I said. Now while "persons" of the Trinity, is a very loose understanding of that word, i.e., not literal "entities", such as my person versus your person, to understand this is 'modes of being' is not far afield.

I would differ with what is said of modalism in that I believe these three "persons" or modes, or aspects, or whatever term could possibly apply to the Divine Reality, exist eternally as such. God is these "three", Source, Manifestation, and Unity (Father, Son, Spirit).

I think modern day Modelism does accept that these 'modes' are eternal, and so they are closer to Trinitarian theology than they may care to admit. Personally, I just see these "oneness" groups, the modern modalists, as responding to very literalist interpretations of Trinitarian theology (such as you express imagining it means "separate beings"). They recognize rightly that God is not separated thusly with different personalities in a gross-level way you might speak of different "people".

The trinity is not one person in three modes like the Thrikaya in Mahayana Buddhism.
I did not intend to suggest that the Trinity was equal to the Trikaya. The hypostatic union is closer to that. But just as you have the three natures in one person in Buddhism, you have the three 'states of being' in the Trinity. I realize it's not a direct, one to one comparison. I brought that up to show that the question about the nature of the Buddha gave rise to the doctrine of the Trikaya, just as the question about the nature of Christ gave rise to the doctrine of the hypostatic union, and the the question about the nature of the Divine, gave rise to the doctrine of the Trinity.

These are ways to try to think about something that transcends definitions. Yet doctrinal literalists always mistake metaphors as actual descriptors of reality itself. They mistake fingers pointing to the moon, as the moon itself.

I think you may of course know all of this. But the concept of the trinity is that it is one ousia or essence in three separate beings, vis a vis, the father, son and Holy Spirit. The father is NOT the son, the son is not the father, the Holy Spirit is neither of them.
We may speak of God in terms of three, but to say that they are separate beings, would be like saying my body and my mind and my spirit are three separate beings. I can talk about my body, I can talk about my mind, I can talk about my spirit, but at all times I am not divided. Every aspect of this single being, me, is still one being. Not three separate people or persons. To imagine it literally as three separate beings, is confusion and error.

They are separate beings, but of the same essence or usia so they are not three lords.
Am I three separate beings?

In the church history, believing the trinity is three modes of the same person like the Thrikaya spoken of above is called modalism. Its a very serious heresy and you can be excommunicated for believing in such a thing. I will cut and paste part of the Athanasian creed for you from Marquess's translation directly.

"So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not Three Gods, but One God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not Three Lords but One Lord. For, like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, so are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion to say, there be Three Gods or Three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father, and of the Son neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

So there is One Father, not Three Fathers; one Son, not Three Sons; One Holy Ghost, not Three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is afore or after Other, None is greater or less than Another, but the whole Three Persons are Co-eternal together, and Co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity is Trinity, and the Trinity is Unity is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, must thus think of the Trinity."
Well, I think anyone at anytime who says that our salvation is contingent upon how we conceptualize the Divine theologically, has a long, long ways to go spiritually speaking. Nothing we can say about the Divine, defines God. Period.
 
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firedragon

Veteran Member
There are not three hypostasis. The hypostatic union refers to the human nature and the divine nature. There is one divine nature. Not three.

Please advice on origins statement "We are, however, persuaded that there are three hypostases, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" in his commentary of John.

The Trinity is also one aspect of Christian teachings.

Is Jesus one aspect of THE FATHER only? I thought they were coeternal and coequal. If your theology is that God has an aspect called Jesus, that's not the trinity. Its upto you. I have no quarrel with that.

We may speak of God in terms of three, but to say that they are separate beings, would be like saying my body and my mind and my spirit are three separate beings.

Your understanding of a being is not a philosophical understanding.
 

Starlight

Spiritual but not religious, new age and omnist
I have repeatedly said I do not believe in there being three gods.
You wrote yesterday:

"Thus, we often refer to it as the "three in one" belief, whereas they are three entities but basically reflect One-- and that One is God"

So you wrote you believe the three persons in God is three entities. That explanation is tritheism.

Since you do not believe in three gods you should stop explaining your belief so it sounds like tritheism
 
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IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Ok..but this doesn't invalidate the main point in my comment.

Unless you're looking for a fundamentalist definition, it just means three come to one-tri -unity

Unity, duality, Trinity, etc. The root word is unity.

Scripture: I "and" the father are one.
The trinity is a doctrine developed by the Christian church and explained by its ecumenical councils. There really is no "fundamentalist" definition or "liberal" definition. There are only descriptions that either conform to that church teaching or deviate from it (and are called heresies).

I have been interested in Trinitarianism, because when Jesus was declared God, it meant that Christians began accusing Jews of deicide, and ramped up anti-semitism among Christians. Obviously as a Jew, I consider Trinitarianism to be an assault on the oneness of God, and worshiping the man Jesus as a form of idolatry. Nevertheless, I have tried my best to understand this very strange teaching. Best book I read on the subject was "When Jesus became God" by Rabbi Richard Rubenstein.

One Episcopalian priest that I discussed the Trinity with said he hated Trinity Sunday, because no matter how hard he would try to stay orthodox in his description of the Trinity in his sermons, he would inevitably slip into one heresy or another. Most analogies imply incorrectly that Trinitarianism means that the three persons are parts of God, or that they are modes of God. Both of these were rejected by the Christian church.

Trinitarianism is essentially, One Essence, three people. But what does that mean? Although it is easy to say what the Trinity is NOT, it is very difficult to say what it is. There is a medieval story told about Augustine trying to understand the Trinity:

While Augustine was working on his book On the Trinity, he was walking by the seaside one day, meditating on the difficult problem of how God could be three Persons at once. He came upon a little child. The child had dug a little hole in the sand, and with a small spoon or seashell was scooping water from the sea into the small hole. Augustine watched him for a while and finally asked the child what he was doing. The child answered that he would scoop all the water from the sea and pour it into the little hole in the sand. ‘What?’ Augustine said. ‘That is impossible. Obviously, the sea is too large and the hole too small.’ ‘Indeed,’ said the child, ‘but I will sooner draw all the water from the sea and empty it into this hole than you will succeed in penetrating the mystery of the Holy Trinity with your limited understanding.’ Augustine turned away in amazement and when he looked back the child had disappeared.

The child by the seaside: a medieval story about Saint Augustine - Medievalists.net
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
The trinity is a doctrine developed by the Christian church and explained by its ecumenical councils. There really is no "fundamentalist" definition or "liberal" definition. There are only descriptions that either conform to that church teaching or deviate from it (and are called heresies).

I have been interested in Trinitarianism, because when Jesus was declared God, it meant that Christians began accusing Jews of deicide, and ramped up anti-semitism among Christians. Obviously as a Jew, I consider Trinitarianism to be an assault on the oneness of God, and worshiping the man Jesus as a form of idolatry. Nevertheless, I have tried my best to understand this very strange teaching. Best book I read on the subject was "When Jesus became God" by Rabbi Richard Rubenstein.

One Episcopalian priest that I discussed the Trinity with said he hated Trinity Sunday, because no matter how hard he would try to stay orthodox in his description of the Trinity in his sermons, he would inevitably slip into one heresy or another. Most analogies imply incorrectly that Trinitarianism means that the three persons are parts of God, or that they are modes of God. Both of these were rejected by the Christian church.

Trinitarianism is essentially, One Essence, three people. But what does that mean? Although it is easy to say what the Trinity is NOT, it is very difficult to say what it is. There is a medieval story told about Augustine trying to understand the Trinity:

While Augustine was working on his book On the Trinity, he was walking by the seaside one day, meditating on the difficult problem of how God could be three Persons at once. He came upon a little child. The child had dug a little hole in the sand, and with a small spoon or seashell was scooping water from the sea into the small hole. Augustine watched him for a while and finally asked the child what he was doing. The child answered that he would scoop all the water from the sea and pour it into the little hole in the sand. ‘What?’ Augustine said. ‘That is impossible. Obviously, the sea is too large and the hole too small.’ ‘Indeed,’ said the child, ‘but I will sooner draw all the water from the sea and empty it into this hole than you will succeed in penetrating the mystery of the Holy Trinity with your limited understanding.’ Augustine turned away in amazement and when he looked back the child had disappeared.

The child by the seaside: a medieval story about Saint Augustine - Medievalists.net

There's no fundamental theology of the Trinity, true but many protestant churches don't share the same views and definition as Catholics. The othorodox keeps it a mystery.

They both believe Jesus is god but from my experience only a handful of protestants believe Jesus is not the creator. From my personal experience the church separates it like the eucharist. You have the wine/blood substance and essence Jesus Christ. When people take communion they bring Christ present in the church..seen through consecration.

I'd liken Jesus being God the same. Though I haven't heard a Catholic believe he drinks actual blood from the human body so there is separation.

This is just going by my experience and what I've learned from both.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
There's no fundamental theology of the Trinity, true but many protestant churches don't share the same views and definition as Catholics. The othorodox keeps it a mystery.
The Protestant churches inherited the teaching of the Trinity from the Catholic church. In what way do you think they have a different understanding?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
The Protestant churches inherited the teaching of the Trinity from the Catholic church. In what way do you think they have a different understanding?

Protestant churches vary. Some literally believe Jesus Christ created the universe. Some believe he is called God because of his divinity but not the creator himself. It's highly individual.

When I went to the church the trinity I found is experiential not defined by theology and not verbatim in scripture (fund view).

The thing is I was a convert. So my language use would be different than a Christian.

The best I can describe it is the eucharist.

Wine/blood are substance as flesh/human is Christ's substance. The consecration (the priest/Christ blessing communion) brings the essence of Christ in the church as one Mass. The spirit, Christ, and creator are all divine/god in that each holds a part in the creators communion and Catholics take part in Christ passion.

The trinity is the union between these three things. Christians can't separate it because they are all on the same accord.

Fundamentalist are literal and scripture based.... My exp Catholics are more experiential communal based.

Their perceptions are different. In mass if the priest/victor of christ were the creator he wouldn't need to concentrate communion. There's no one to hold the wine and bread "up to."

As for theology, I've read about it but anything christian it's always based on my experience and what I've learned.

I think people need to be more open to experiential explanations to christian (and other religions) theologies. Locking it in the books is a fundamentalist view not really a Catholic one.

(Not debating just expressing my thoughts)
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Protestant churches vary. Some literally believe Jesus Christ created the universe. Some believe he is called God because of his divinity but not the creator himself. It's highly individual.

When I went to the church the trinity I found is experiential not defined by theology and not verbatim in scripture (fund view).

The thing is I was a convert. So my language use would be different than a Christian.

The best I can describe it is the eucharist.

Wine/blood are substance as flesh/human is Christ's substance. The consecration (the priest/Christ blessing communion) brings the essence of Christ in the church as one Mass. The spirit, Christ, and creator are all divine/god in that each holds a part in the creators communion and Catholics take part in Christ passion.

The trinity is the union between these three things. Christians can't separate it because they are all on the same accord.

Fundamentalist are literal and scripture based.... My exp Catholics are more experiential communal based.

Their perceptions are different. In mass if the priest/victor of christ were the creator he wouldn't need to concentrate communion. There's no one to hold the wine and bread "up to."

As for theology, I've read about it but anything christian it's always based on my experience and what I've learned.

I think people need to be more open to experiential explanations to christian (and other religions) theologies. Locking it in the books is a fundamentalist view not really a Catholic one.

(Not debating just expressing my thoughts)
I know what the Eucharist is. I used to be Catholic. Eucharistic theology has nothing to do with the Catholic understanding of the Trinity.j

Protestants are way more than just the fundamentalists, you know. But even the fundamentalists have the same understanding of the Trinity as Catholics. Their scholars copy the same wording from the church councils. Lay people, on the other hand, dont' usually study Trinitarian doctrine, and butcher it when you try to get them to define it. j jThat's both Catholic and Protestant lay people.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I know what the Eucharist is. I used to be Catholic. Eucharistic theology has nothing to do with the Catholic understanding of the Trinity.j

Protestants are way more than just the fundamentalists, you know. But even the fundamentalists have the same understanding of the Trinity as Catholics. Their scholars copy the same wording from the church councils. Lay people, on the other hand, dont' usually study Trinitarian doctrine, and butcher it when you try to get them to define it. j jThat's both Catholic and Protestant lay people.

This is coming from my experiences and what I've learned. As a former convert, I see it differently and have different "language" (non-theological) to explain it. I don't believe religious experiences are limited to what theologists and scholars mean about the trinity.

It's easier for me to explain and discuss it from an experiential perspective not a theological because I was not indoctrinated into christianity and have no means to look into it deeper. I don't use christian-language to explain it because I'm not that mystical with explaining spiritual concepts that could be very easily pictured without the jargon.

With that said, in my experience and what I've learned I liken the trinity to the Eucharist insofar the essence and substance of the bread/wine is the essence/substance is like incarnation of christ as god/divinity. Christ/flesh/substance and divinity/essence/creator. The union between the three (hence the tri- in trinity) makes them one.

If the church believed christ was the creator there would be no "father, son, and holy spirit." It would just be god. No trinity just unity.

But the way Mass (that I've experienced) has been played out you can clearly see the separation-christians cannot tell the difference and Roman Catholic Church tries to explain it but in their CCC says its a mystery.

Here's the trinity: 1082 In the Church's liturgy the divine blessing is fully revealed and communicated. the Father is acknowledged and adored as the source and the end of all the blessings of creation and salvation. In his Word who became incarnate, died, and rose for us, he fills us with his blessings. Through his Word, he pours into our hearts the Gift that contains all gifts, the Holy Spirit. Catechism of the Catholic Church - IntraText

What I'm saying is there's a unity between these three things and they share the same essence (divinity/god) but they are not the same-jesus is not the creator.

Another thing is it depends on how you were taught, what age, and where.
 
I was going to at first quote someone, then I decided not to as I couldn't even figure out who or what question/statement to reply back to as this was just allllllllllllll over the place :). I'm going to try to just generally tackle what I read.

Let me start by saying most people I've encountered have not read the bible from end to end. I've met very few people who have actually read the entire bible. I'm on my 3rd iteration of trying to read it completely through.

The Trinity is as some have already stated: God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. We serve 1 God, revealed to us as the Father, the Son, the Spirit. Co-equal in the sense that they are all omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent. The very beginning of the Bible shows the trinity in the account of creation. Genesis 1:1 in English as most are familiar states: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." However, the Old Testament (OT) was not written in English. It was written in Hebrew. In Hebrew that reads: “Bere**** Bara Elohim Et Ha-Shamaim V-Et Ha-Aretz” {בראשית ברא אלוהים את השמים ואת הארץ}. Right smack in the middle of that Hebrew sentence is this tiny little word "Et" in Hebrew את (Aleph Tav) which are the first and last letters of Hebrew Alphabet. You can look this up, it's literally untranslated. They really don't know what it means, because our Jewish friends don't accept Jesus as being their Messiah. When the Apostle John was on Patmos and is speaking with Jesus in the Book of Revelation, Jesus says in Revelation 22:13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.” The New Testament is in Greek, so it's the Alpha the Omega which are the first and Last letters of the Greek Alphabet. If Jesus was speaking to you in ENGLISH and trying to get that same point across He would have said I'm the A and Z, the the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last. He is God, I'm sure sure He knows how to speak every language on Earth.

That word Elohim is plural, not in sense of multiple Gods...but in the sense of the Father, Son, Spirit created the Heavens and the Earth.
As I stated, just so you would know He put his signature in the middle of the very first sentence...The Aleph Tav, Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last, the A and Z created the Heavens and Earth. Then if you are like well where is the Holy Spirit?....Genesis 1:2 says "The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters." All three were involved in creation and were IN THE BEGINNING before everything.

There are lots of scripture proof that Jesus is God. His very name when He came was to be called Emmanuel, which means God with us. In John 8:58 Jesus says "Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by." Why do you think they were trying to KILL HIM? They all knew what "I AM" meant. There was only one "I AM" in the OT, and that was the GREAT I AM that I AM (YHVH). He was saying I AM GOD. There were several times in the NT He said things and they tried to Kill Him because they understood what he was saying.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Our human father first as body mind spirit. Our human mother first as. Body mind spirit.

No baby.

Our consciousness grows adapts to adult memory. Adult teaching.

No science.

Consciousness natural is first human.

A natural man in men agreement invented science. Not natural thinking.

Artificial incorrect idealism.

Humans were told taught but ignore a teaching love and honour respect your human parents.

In theorising you don't respect natural.

You seek egotistical shared communal other group activity. Not family. Not life. Nor life continuance.

Actually we're all taught yet you ignore self advice spiritual. Human advice.

Our parents compared to our baby conscious development is a hierarchy in human memory that baby adults falsified meaning of.

A man adult lost some of his own father's DNA. First. How would you feel knowing experiencing the loss.

Would above you advise you? Would below you advise you as you bodily changed as a living life form?
Yes it did.

Water oxygen generated is our holy life host. Three is hydrogen oxygen water as mass by holy mother space. Pressure.

Sex why any of us live today.

Taught holy mother supported our human holy baby life as a human holy mother womb teaching.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Since you do not believe in three gods you should stop explaining your belief so it sounds like tritheism
The key is the use of "essence", which the Church heavily relied on in this area and some others. Let me give an example of the latter.

With Jesus' Parable of the Seed & the Sower, did that person actually exist in fact? Was this an actual historical event? The early Church debated this, and their conclusion was that it didn't make a difference because the "essence" of the parable is its moral teaching.

Thus, I in no way am spouting "tritheism", as the "essence" of Jesus and the Holy Spirit is their being of God.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
My opinion: First of all I base my opinion upon the protestant canon, not because I have to, but; because it is what I am familiar with. I am familiar with Genesis through Malachi and Matthew through Revelation.

So why three words?

Holy Spirit means "The separate breath." This alludes to being dead to the world and alive to God's new creation.

Son alludes to our inheritance from our father in heaven. God is not male, and the church is not male. The point is that the church inherits from God. We are part of the Son or the Son dwells in us, or we are elevated from lower beings to heirs of God. This means also that we have to die to ourselves, die to this world and its ways. The transformation is destructive.

Father alludes to the invisible, the intangible, the transcendent, omnipresent, timeless God.


****furthermore****
Abraham bows to his guests. Why? I think he believes God is in them. I look at how scripture treats the people of God, as if God's wisdom (which is divine) is in them. I look at how Paul talks about bowing, too. There are many passages about things like this. John 1 says that the Logos is tabernacled in people. This affects how I understand the trinity.
  • [Gen 18:2 NIV] 2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.
  • [Deu 6:15 NIV] 15 for the LORD your God, who is among you, is a jealous God and his anger will burn against you, and he will destroy you from the face of the land.
  • [Jos 3:10 NIV] 10 This is how you will know that the living God is among you and that he will certainly drive out before you the Canaanites, Hittites, Hivites, Perizzites, Girga****es, Amorites and Jebusites.
  • [Deu 6:15 NIV] 15 for the LORD your God, who is among you, is a jealous God and his anger will burn against you, and he will destroy you from the face of the land.
  • [1Co 14:25 NIV] 25 as the secrets of their hearts are laid bare. So they will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, "God is really among you!"
  • [Jhn 1:14 NIV] 14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

God is understood to be transcendent of this physical world, not from it, not made through it or consisting of it.
Very thoughtfully done.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
The Son, the Word, the Logos, is the manifestation of the Source, or the Father. What the Father wills, the Son manifests and brings into being. What existence is, is the Logos itself. The Logos is God Manifesting. When we see the heavens above or the earth beneath, it is through the Logos this all comes into being.

The Spirit is that which is the Life that flows from the Source, through the Son, to all created wonder. It all is a living, vibrating, dynamic WHOLE, that Spirit binds together and animates though all. Spirit is the Energy of existence itself.
I like this part especially.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
Since it asserts that The Father is 100% of God, and that Jesus is 100% of God and that the Ghost is 100% of God, and that the Father is not Jesus or the Ghost, and that Jesus is not the Ghost, the doctrine is incoherent. Oddly, the churches acknowledge this, by calling it "a mystery in the strict sense".
Nice!
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Three consciously.

Humans. Living are humans. As humans.

Philosophising.
Theorising. Two thinking story telling her man concepts.

Humans self analysed said two concepts relate to three concepts.

Men.
One concept. Human. Then man hu man. Two concepts consciousness.

Variations via thin king established human conditions.

King he says. My head status.

Yet mind is not over matter. The heavens were.

Three. Father. Is not a father just a man first. Is a father due to a baby presence a son.

Heavens above us always existed. Not us.

Three. Mother. Is not a mother just a female first. Is a mother due to a daughter baby presence.

Both parents two own two babies. Two by Two.

Concepts of holy explanation by words.

Do words only explain science?

No.

Words observed looked saw only whole one bodies first.

Theorising design for status science human practiced beginnings was never the holy one first observation.

Why philosophy said theism is lying.

As design was human implemented by thoughts not by seeing. Not one whole observation either.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
All three were god. Kind of confusing to a 11 year old but that's what we were told

I believe that still does not explain it which is why there is confusion.

I believe I never was taught the Trinity as a youth and only developed an understanding of it after accepting Jesus into my life. When God presented HImself to me that way, I didn't question it and didn't encounter it again until I met a Christian who had been taught the wrong thing. I evidently made him very angry for testing his cherished beliefs.
 
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