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Sex Work Is Legitimate, But Needs Regulation

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
So I don't know how well it works to take a small group and to say "if society shared some of these values, then this problem would go away." It probably doesn't, because for instance many of our social groups aren't thieves, and we can't sit here and be like "gee if everyone was like this group, theft would go away."

But I can't help but feel like there's something to it when it comes to things like making value judgments (like avoiding racism, or avoiding misogyny, things like this). Nobody in my circles of friends (plural, even the ones that I didn't make from my younger days when I worked at the clubs) negatively judges sex workers: they don't consider it dehumanizing; they would treat a sex worker exactly the same way they would treat anyone else regardless of whether they would use the sex worker's services or not.

If circles of friends can be like a community (and in many ways, I think they can), then it just goes to show that a lot of the hate and dehumanization humans do is absolutely unnecessary. If everyone were like my friends, sex workers would live dignified lives. Nobody would care how they make their living if they aren't hurting anyone. It wouldn't bring down society. I don't understand these arguments about how it's so inherently wicked because it really just isn't. The wickedness comes from the dehumanization, which comes from outside; it comes from other people. Just like racism comes from outside, comes from other people, and so on.
 

infrabenji

Active Member
Because some things should never be legitimized. We should not condone an institution that ruins so many lives.
Same reason we should not legalize heroin.
We should definitely legalize heroin and all drugs. The data shows that the legalization of drugs makes safer drugs, reduces overdose, addiction, and dramatically reduces not only harm to the drug users self and others but radically reduces state and federal costs associated with perpetration, prosecution, and incarceration. When state and federal funds are allocated to the betterment of a drug addicts mental health, quality of life, and education there is very little recidivism as data shows. This is opposed to the outrageous rates of recidivism we have now (the worst in the world) do to the war on drugs and privatized prison institutions.
 
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infrabenji

Active Member
So I don't know how well it works to take a small group and to say "if society shared some of these values, then this problem would go away." It probably doesn't, because for instance many of our social groups aren't thieves, and we can't sit here and be like "gee if everyone was like this group, theft would go away."

But I can't help but feel like there's something to it when it comes to things like making value judgments (like avoiding racism, or avoiding misogyny, things like this). Nobody in my circles of friends (plural, even the ones that I didn't make from my younger days when I worked at the clubs) negatively judges sex workers: they don't consider it dehumanizing; they would treat a sex worker exactly the same way they would treat anyone else regardless of whether they would use the sex worker's services or not.

If circles of friends can be like a community (and in many ways, I think they can), then it just goes to show that a lot of the hate and dehumanization humans do is absolutely unnecessary. If everyone were like my friends, sex workers would live dignified lives. Nobody would care how they make their living if they aren't hurting anyone. It wouldn't bring down society. I don't understand these arguments about how it's so inherently wicked because it really just isn't. The wickedness comes from the dehumanization, which comes from outside; it comes from other people. Just like racism comes from outside, comes from other people, and so on.
I wonder if this need to dehumanize sex workers is born out of insecurity, fear, maybe a lack of education? I haven’t seen one good argument but I have seen a lot of what looks like insecurity. A lot of fear about what they don’t understand, and a lack of education on the inner workings of the sex industry.
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
I wonder if this need to dehumanize sex workers is born out of insecurity, fear, maybe a lack of education? I haven’t seen one good argument but I have seen a lot of what looks like insecurity. A lot of fear about what they don’t understand, and a lack of education on the inner workings of the sex industry.

I'd say it varies by person. Probably longstanding ideas about fornication which had much more serious repercussions in societies before birth control or the understanding of disease transmission.
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
Good points as usual.

Many of the reasons probably intermingle. I suspect a lot of it comes from very ancient ideas of fornication as I said because using monogamy solved a lot of problems that would have occurred in early societies. Having monogamy led to ideas about whether it's OK to have sex before settling down and things like this.

But it has become intermingled with various other ideas about misogyny for instance (men that enjoy sex = heroes, women that enjoy sex = sluts. Men are victims that are tempted by temptresses. Women dress too provocatively and it's their fault that men get into trouble. Women that have sex become ruined somehow, they're no longer pure. These sorts of things). Not all of these explanations apply to everyone, just stating things that exist in various people.

All of the reasons are bull****. The only ones that aren't just bull**** on their face are the ones where someone just shrugs and says "God says it's bad and I trust God." Can't argue with that other than just doubting an almighty creator would be so petty.
 
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Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
According to some peoples' worldviews, I'm actually a virgin since I've never had sex with a man! You can sacrifice me to a volcano.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
I'm still human. You can call yourself whatever you want. I don't mind.
I too am a human. However, I don't try to pretend to be something I'm not. Humans are animals. I am a human. You are a human. This does mean we are animals because humans are animals.
That they're inappropriate, perverted, unhealthy and spread other kinds of problems in the society.
And yet we've seen evidence that demonizing prostitutes causes problems. And is homosexuality problematic, or is it conservative Christians and Muslims who go out of their way to demonize them? After all, atheists aren't the ones disowning homosexual kids and kicking them out onto that street. That distinction belongs to the conservative sorts who worship the God of Abraham.
Hate is perverted and inappropriate. People doing consensual stuff that effects and harms no one is simply non of our business and not our place to judge and demonize.
You said healthy enough - is that you admitting your society can't be entirely healthy? Maybe you didn't see my links regarding the mental health of prostitutes.
Healthy enough as in it allows for these things without obsessing over it. Another example is censorship, in that when we have the right to criticize the government and state society is healthy and stable enough to allow for that.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Many of the reasons probably intermingle. I suspect a lot of it comes from very ancient ideas of fornication as I said because using monogamy solved a lot of problems that would have occurred in early societies. Having monogamy led to ideas about whether it's OK to have sex before settling down and things like this.
We're not always monogamous, and lots of cultures haven't. The Bible doesn't even model this well with sex slavery and figures such as David with his hundreds of wives and concubines. And there is the unpleasantness that is encouraging people to get married just to satisfy their sexual urges. That is absolutely horribly advice, but Paul thinks it's swell if you can't control your sexual urges.
 

Shakeel

Well-Known Member
So I don't know how well it works to take a small group and to say "if society shared some of these values, then this problem would go away." It probably doesn't, because for instance many of our social groups aren't thieves, and we can't sit here and be like "gee if everyone was like this group, theft would go away."

But I can't help but feel like there's something to it when it comes to things like making value judgments (like avoiding racism, or avoiding misogyny, things like this). Nobody in my circles of friends (plural, even the ones that I didn't make from my younger days when I worked at the clubs) negatively judges sex workers: they don't consider it dehumanizing; they would treat a sex worker exactly the same way they would treat anyone else regardless of whether they would use the sex worker's services or not.

If circles of friends can be like a community (and in many ways, I think they can), then it just goes to show that a lot of the hate and dehumanization humans do is absolutely unnecessary. If everyone were like my friends, sex workers would live dignified lives. Nobody would care how they make their living if they aren't hurting anyone. It wouldn't bring down society. I don't understand these arguments about how it's so inherently wicked because it really just isn't. The wickedness comes from the dehumanization, which comes from outside; it comes from other people. Just like racism comes from outside, comes from other people, and so on.
I and none of my friends and actually no one I've ever met has ever shown approval or respect to that filthy profession (Muslims and non-Muslims alike). The fact that you have such friends is no surprise. Birds of a feather flock together and you become like the people you surround yourself with, which is why parents shouldn't let their children hang out with people inclined to immoral actions.
We should definitely legalize heroin and all drugs
Now you've lost all credibility.
I'd say it varies by person. Probably longstanding ideas about fornication
And adultery. Sex workers rutinely sleep with other women's husbands. Funny you missed that one.
I'd say it varies by person. Probably longstanding ideas about fornication which had much more serious repercussions in societies before birth control or the understanding of disease transmission.
You think we don't understand how one can protect themselves from STDs?

"Persons who exchange sex are at increased risk of getting or transmitting HIV and other sexually transmitted diseases (STDs) because they are more likely to engage in risky sexual behaviors (e.g., sex without a condom, sex with multiple partners) and substance use. Those who exchange sex more regularly as a source of ongoing income are at higher risk for HIV than those who do so infrequently. Persons who engage in such activities include escorts; people who work in massage parlors, brothels, and the adult film industry; exotic dancers; state-regulated prostitutes (in Nevada); and men, women, and transgender persons who participate in survival sex, i.e., trading sex to meet basic needs of daily life." (...)


[I find this highly disturbing in this context: For people who are living with HIV, taking medicines to treat HIV (called antiretroviral therapy or ART) the right way every day can help keep them healthy and greatly reduce their chance of transmitting HIV to others.] (...)

"Many persons who exchange sex may have a history of homelessness, unemployment, incarceration, mental health issues, violence, emotional/physical/sexual abuse, and drug use." (...)

"Economics: Persons who exchange sex may receive more money for sex without a condom.
Partner type: Persons who exchange sex may use condoms less often with regular clients than with one-time clients and even less frequently with intimate partners.
Power dynamics: Unequal power in a relationship with clients may make it difficult for persons who exchange sex to negotiate condom use." (...)

[unequal? Wasn't prostitution all about equality and respect toward women?]

"More money for sex with partners known to be HIV positive"

"There is a strong link between exchange sex and drug and alcohol use. Persons who exchange sex, if under the influence of drugs or alcohol, may have impaired judgment, engage in riskier forms of sex such as anal sex, and have difficulty negotiating safer sex (condom use, for example) with their customers. People who trade sex for drugs tend to have more clients, use condoms less often, and are more likely to share needles and other drug works."
Sex Workers | HIV by Group | HIV/AIDS | CDC

"In the United States, there are currently an estimated 400,000 domestic minors involved in trafficking. Sex trafficking generates an estimated $39 billion a year as the demand for prostitutes continues to rise."
Researchers Uncover Disturbing Link Between Sex Trafficking and Abortion

What do you think is enough prostitutes for the Americans? Does anybody want to lecture about child marriage?
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
I and none of my friends and actually no one I've ever met has ever shown approval or respect to that filthy profession (Muslims and non-Muslims alike). The fact that you have such friends is no surprise. Birds of a feather flock together and you become like the people you surround yourself with, which is why parents shouldn't let their children hang out with people inclined to immoral actions.

Neither I nor any of my friends have been prostitutes, so I don't know what you're saying here. I said that we would not demean and marginalize someone if we knew them to be one: we would treat them like a human with dignity. I will not be ashamed for that. Maybe you and your friends need to have a little more empathy for people in a life situation that is very difficult? Have you considered this before judging me and my friends? I wouldn't be opposed to calling you (and anyone I talk to here at RF) a friend or acquaintance, you know. If people treating each other with respect disgusts you, maybe reflect on that some?

And adultery. Sex workers rutinely sleep with other women's husbands. Funny you missed that one.

It hasn't explicitly come up; but aren't you blaming the wrong person here? A prostitute is doing a job, this failing is on the husbands. Just as if a husband takes off his ring and goes to a bar, it's not the woman's fault in that scenario. You've got this backwards, Shakeel.

You think we don't understand how one can protect themselves from STDs?

No. I was saying that cultural taboos against premarital sex and prostitution probably came out of a time when humans poorly understood these things in general other than to avoid them by starting marriage practices and monogamy.

"Persons who exchange sex are at increased risk of getting or transmitting HIV and other sexually transmitted diseases (STDs) because they are more likely to engage in risky sexual behaviors (e.g., sex without a condom, sex with multiple partners) and substance use. Those who exchange sex more regularly as a source of ongoing income are at higher risk for HIV than those who do so infrequently. Persons who engage in such activities include escorts; people who work in massage parlors, brothels, and the adult film industry; exotic dancers; state-regulated prostitutes (in Nevada); and men, women, and transgender persons who participate in survival sex, i.e., trading sex to meet basic needs of daily life." (...)

[I find this highly disturbing in this context: For people who are living with HIV, taking medicines to treat HIV (called antiretroviral therapy or ART) the right way every day can help keep them healthy and greatly reduce their chance of transmitting HIV to others.] (...)

"Many persons who exchange sex may have a history of homelessness, unemployment, incarceration, mental health issues, violence, emotional/physical/sexual abuse, and drug use." (...)

"Economics: Persons who exchange sex may receive more money for sex without a condom.
Partner type: Persons who exchange sex may use condoms less often with regular clients than with one-time clients and even less frequently with intimate partners.
Power dynamics: Unequal power in a relationship with clients may make it difficult for persons who exchange sex to negotiate condom use." (...)

[unequal? Wasn't prostitution all about equality and respect toward women?]

"More money for sex with partners known to be HIV positive"

"There is a strong link between exchange sex and drug and alcohol use. Persons who exchange sex, if under the influence of drugs or alcohol, may have impaired judgment, engage in riskier forms of sex such as anal sex, and have difficulty negotiating safer sex (condom use, for example) with their customers. People who trade sex for drugs tend to have more clients, use condoms less often, and are more likely to share needles and other drug works."
Sex Workers | HIV by Group | HIV/AIDS | CDC

"In the United States, there are currently an estimated 400,000 domestic minors involved in trafficking. Sex trafficking generates an estimated $39 billion a year as the demand for prostitutes continues to rise."
Researchers Uncover Disturbing Link Between Sex Trafficking and Abortion

What do you think is enough prostitutes for the Americans? Does anybody want to lecture about child marriage?

Regarding most of these stats: from looking into the literature on this stuff myself over the lifetime of these threads, I can tell you that most of these stats come from street prostitutes, not from legal brothels where they have been legalized. The very nature of criminalization and marginalization caused by it is a major source for these issues.

Legalization and regulation would combat every single one of these stats. The underworld is very good at coercing and trafficking women and girls into hopeless, drug addled situations and that is a very different scenario from having legal and regulated situations where sex workers can operate in a safe environment, be able to report crimes against them without fear of reprise, hire bouncers to protect them, and so on.

All that pasting these stats does is argue for legalization, because these are all issues caused by criminalization and the environment that forces on people.
 
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infrabenji

Active Member
I and none of my friends and actually no one I've ever met has ever shown approval or respect to that filthy profession (Muslims and non-Muslims alike). The fact that you have such friends is no surprise. Birds of a feather flock together and you become like the people you surround yourself with, which is why parents shouldn't let their children hang out with people inclined to immoral actions.

Now you've lost all credibility.

And adultery. Sex workers rutinely sleep with other women's husbands. Funny you missed that one.

You think we don't understand how one can protect themselves from STDs?

"Persons who exchange sex are at increased risk of getting or transmitting HIV and other sexually transmitted diseases (STDs) because they are more likely to engage in risky sexual behaviors (e.g., sex without a condom, sex with multiple partners) and substance use. Those who exchange sex more regularly as a source of ongoing income are at higher risk for HIV than those who do so infrequently. Persons who engage in such activities include escorts; people who work in massage parlors, brothels, and the adult film industry; exotic dancers; state-regulated prostitutes (in Nevada); and men, women, and transgender persons who participate in survival sex, i.e., trading sex to meet basic needs of daily life." (...)


[I find this highly disturbing in this context: For people who are living with HIV, taking medicines to treat HIV (called antiretroviral therapy or ART) the right way every day can help keep them healthy and greatly reduce their chance of transmitting HIV to others.] (...)

"Many persons who exchange sex may have a history of homelessness, unemployment, incarceration, mental health issues, violence, emotional/physical/sexual abuse, and drug use." (...)

"Economics: Persons who exchange sex may receive more money for sex without a condom.
Partner type: Persons who exchange sex may use condoms less often with regular clients than with one-time clients and even less frequently with intimate partners.
Power dynamics: Unequal power in a relationship with clients may make it difficult for persons who exchange sex to negotiate condom use." (...)

[unequal? Wasn't prostitution all about equality and respect toward women?]

"More money for sex with partners known to be HIV positive"

"There is a strong link between exchange sex and drug and alcohol use. Persons who exchange sex, if under the influence of drugs or alcohol, may have impaired judgment, engage in riskier forms of sex such as anal sex, and have difficulty negotiating safer sex (condom use, for example) with their customers. People who trade sex for drugs tend to have more clients, use condoms less often, and are more likely to share needles and other drug works."
Sex Workers | HIV by Group | HIV/AIDS | CDC

"In the United States, there are currently an estimated 400,000 domestic minors involved in trafficking. Sex trafficking generates an estimated $39 billion a year as the demand for prostitutes continues to rise."
Researchers Uncover Disturbing Link Between Sex Trafficking and Abortion

What do you think is enough prostitutes for the Americans? Does anybody want to lecture about child marriage?
You have no idea what you’re talking about as, by your own admission, you’ve never had any experience with sex workers. How can sit there and lecture people about something you have no experience with? If I’ve never worked on a car am I a qualified mechanic? Are my opinions about what’s wrong with the car valuable? All you have are opinions and they are not valuable. You’re ideas of immoral actions are steeped in dogmatic fanaticism. I doubt you’ve had a thought that was honestly your own for some time. I’m genuinely curious, Is it easier to have all of your thoughts and actions dictated to you by others? I think the biggest crime here is the lack of thoughtful consideration you display when you belittle and demean others for actions you clearly know nothing about. Is this blatant disregard for other people’s autonomy specific to you or is this a religious thing? In Islamic law, a concubine was a slave-woman with whom her master engaged in sexual relations. Doesn’t sound very consensual. A sex slave? Is there something you’re not telling us shakeel?
 

Shakeel

Well-Known Member
Neither I nor any of my friends have been prostitutes, so I don't know what you're saying here. I
I'm talking about you supporting sex work.
Maybe you and your friends need to have a little more empathy for people in a life situation that is very difficult?
Maybe you should support better social services in your country instead of prostitution.
It hasn't explicitly come up;
You haven't explicitly brough it up and I can only assume you don't care. Otherwise it would be ridiculous to support the jobs.
A prostitute is doing a job, this failing is on the husbands
No, it isn't just the husband to blame. Did you ever hear a wife say, "What a wonderful thing we have all this sex workers around to tempt my husband to cheat on me!"
Just as if a husband takes off his ring and goes to a bar, it's not the woman's fault in that scenario.
Actually you're describing a woman who sleeps with a man immediately or doesn't figure out if he's married or not which implies low moral standards so she most likely is to blame.

Still a random person doing so once and not deliberately finding a married man is not the same as a prostitute doing it as a job because a prostitute knows (seeing as they are all supposedly educated and normal dignified human beings, moreso elevated in their social status due to their choice to sell themselves) that many of their customers are married men. In other words they are knowingly sleeping with married men. I suppose you consider that a service.
Legalization and regulation would combat every single one of these stats. The underworld is very good at coercing and trafficking women and girls into hopeless, drug addled situations and that is a very different scenario from having legal and regulated situations where sex workers can operate in a safe environment,
But you're supporting prostitution. That supports also sex trafficking. You see, they're meeting the "demands", which you think are legitimate.
Regarding most of these stats: from looking into the literature on this stuff myself over the lifetime of these threads, I can tell you that most of these stats come from street prostitutes, not from legal brothels where they have been legalize
those weren't stats, just an overview and making them "better" would not be enough to excuse your support of it. Many stats actually show separate stats to different jobs and they're not good even if there's a difference.
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
Maybe you should support better social services in your country instead of prostitution.

I do. I've been an activist my entire adult life. Political and charity. It's possible to care about more than one marginalized group of people at a time.

You haven't explicitly brough it up and I can only assume you don't care. Otherwise it would be ridiculous to support the jobs.

Of course I care. It is gross for husbands to cheat on their wives and vice versa where they have an agreement to be monogamous with their marriage. I don't support that. But I also don't support treating everyone as if they're guilty because of the actions of those who are.

No, it isn't just the husband to blame. Did you ever hear a wife say, "What a wonderful thing we have all this sex workers around to tempt my husband to cheat on me!"

When I've been with someone I loved (and I have been), I would never have cheated on them. That is on the cheater. People don't belong together if one of them is a cheater. "Temptation" is not a valid excuse, and it's gross to treat it like it is one (on men's behalf -- like they're mindless animals that can't control their urges!)

Cheating is disgusting behavior (that actually harms someone, notice the difference), and that blame lies squarely on the cheater.

Actually you're describing a woman who sleeps with a man immediately or doesn't figure out if he's married or not which implies low moral standards so she most likely is to blame.

Bar pickups and the like are not "low moral standards," it's humans being humans. People that take off their rings and lie are responsible for the cheating. They're lying anyway, of course they're going to tell the person they're flirting with that they're single when they're not. We need to stop looking for every excuse possible to blame anybody else but the cheater when it is the cheater that is to blame for cheating; whether it's a husband or a wife. The cheater is to blame. The only time the other person is to blame is if they somehow know the person's married, then yes, they are to blame too.

Still a random person doing so once and not deliberately finding a married man is not the same as a prostitute doing it as a job because a prostitute knows (seeing as they are all supposedly educated and normal dignified human beings, moreso elevated in their social status due to their choice to sell themselves) that many of their customers are married men. In other words they are knowingly sleeping with married men. I suppose you consider that a service.

I don't know why you assume I have such bad faith beliefs as considering it a "service" to cheat. Surely you think better of me than that?

If married men go to brothels that is still on them. If married women go to brothels that's on them too. If a person with severe health issues enters a donut shop and wants to buy food that could potentially kill them and the donut shop doesn't know that, it's on the person with the severe health issues for doing that; we don't shut down donut shops because some people have poor judgment or problems that they need to get help with (and there should be help available for them, as a side comment).

It is not good to cheat, but it is not a brothel's fault if someone willingly goes to do this. That person has problems, not the brothel; just like with the donut shop. Help should be available to people with problems, of course, so that if they feel like straying from their partner they can talk to a counselor or be encouraged to end their marriage if they're not going to honor it. But keep the blame squarely where it belongs.

But you're supporting prostitution. That supports also sex trafficking. You see, they're meeting the "demands", which you think are legitimate.
those weren't stats, just an overview and making them "better" would not be enough to excuse your support of it. Many stats actually show separate stats to different jobs and they're not good even if there's a difference.

Street prostitution and illegal hovels support sex trafficking. That is precisely what legalization and regulation would have the intention of removing. It is impossible to wipe out crime completely but it is possible to make things a lot better for a lot of people; and it would give law enforcement fewer red herrings to chase when they're hunting down actual trafficking and nonconsensual situations.
 
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Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
"Dehumanizing" is merely a personal opinion.
But if one wants to dehumanize oneself, why should we
have the heavy hand of government persecute them for it?
I find religions dehumanizing & destructive of rational thought,
but many afflicted people manage to live productive lives.
So I wouldn't criminalize it. Religion, prostitution, advocating
communism....such things are unsavory, but if no one is
harmed, it should be OK.
But there are millions harmed because of the sex trade even legally.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
Do you believe that strip clubs spontaneously come into being by divine or infernal command, or do you believe that they are businesses catering to an existing demand among a potential customer base?
That's another thing, why would any female support an industry that empowers men to degrade women?
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
Evidence?
  • Countries with legalized prostitution are associated with higher human trafficking inflows than countries where prostitution is prohibited. The scale effect of legalizing prostitution, i.e. expansion of the market, outweighs the substitution effect, where legal sex workers are favored over illegal workers. On average, countries with legalized prostitution report a greater incidence of human trafficking inflows.
Does Legalized Prostitution Increase Human Trafficking?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
  • Countries with legalized prostitution are associated with higher human trafficking inflows than countries where prostitution is prohibited. The scale effect of legalizing prostitution, i.e. expansion of the market, outweighs the substitution effect, where legal sex workers are favored over illegal workers. On average, countries with legalized prostitution report a greater incidence of human trafficking inflows.
Does Legalized Prostitution Increase Human Trafficking?
"Are associated with"...this kind of phrase is called "weasel words"
because they appear to have substance, but don't actually claim
anything. It should be about causation.
The study doesn't address the benefit of fewer sex workers &
customers being abused in the "justice industrial complex",
eg, arrest, fining, prison, criminal record wrecking lives.

Human trafficking is about people held against their will,
& being forced into dangerous work & circumstances.
That is what arrests & prison impose too. Analyzing
legalization of sex work requires balancing these
competing horrors to find the best outcome.
 
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