Does the rapture doctrine "fly" with Biblical teachings and other LDS scriptures ???

*Paul* said:

Dan 9v24: Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

These are not weekly weeks but weeks of years of seventy sevens. Each week = 7 years that is what the term week means here. The hebrew word is Heptad and can mean an earthly week or a period of seven years.

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The Hebrew word is actually "shabuwa" but you are correct, it can mean a period of seven days or seven years.

Dan 9v25: Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

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The command to rebuild Jerusalam (not the temple but Jeruslem) is here:
Neh 2v1-8: And it came to pass in the month Nisan, in the twentieth year of Artaxerxes the king, that wine was before him: and I took up the wine, and gave it unto the king. Now I had not been beforetime sad in his presence.
Wherefore the king said unto me, Why is thy countenance sad, seeing thou art not sick? this is nothing else but sorrow of heart. Then I was very sore afraid,
And said unto the king, Let the king live for ever: why should not my countenance be sad, when the city, the place of my fathers' sepulchres, lieth waste, and the gates thereof are consumed with fire?
Then the king said unto me, For what dost thou make request? So I prayed to the God of heaven.
And I said unto the king, If it please the king, and if thy servant have found favour in thy sight, that thou wouldest send me unto Judah, unto the city of my fathers' sepulchres, that I may build it.
And the king said unto me, (the queen also sitting by him,) For how long shall thy journey be? and when wilt thou return? So it pleased the king to send me; and I set him a time.
Moreover I said unto the king, If it please the king, let letters be given me to the governors beyond the river, that they may convey me over till I come into Judah;
And a letter unto Asaph the keeper of the king's forest, that he may give me timber to make beams for the gates of the palace which appertained to the house, and for the wall of the city, and for the house that I shall enter into. And the king granted me, according to the good hand of my God upon me.

Dan 9v26: And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

The threescore and two weeks are after the first seven weeks so should be added together to equal 69 weeks when Messiah comes. (another tpoic but if HE didn't come then then HE never came and if you are still looking for Him you missed Him)

The twentieth year of Artaxerxes Longimanus is 445bc. If we count 69 weeks of years (483 years in a 360 day hebrew calender cycle) or 69 x 7 x 360 = 173,880 days till the messiah should come. This takes you to palm Sunday the day Jesus was publicly presented as Messiah by riding in to Jerusalem as foretold Messiah would in Zecheriah. (Remember 1 bc to 1 ad is only 1 year) Then Messiah is killed but not for Himself (for the sins of the world) leaving 7 years outstanding.

more about these extant 7 years to folloe

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OK. that was talking about the first appearance of Christ right? I still do not see where you are getting 7 years for the tribulation at the last days. Did I miss it?

comprehend said:

OK. that was talking about the first appearance of Christ right? I still do not see where you are getting 7 years for the tribulation at the last days. Did I miss it?

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I've seen this explained by several different Christian organizations several different times and there is no way to grasp this unless you see it on a history time scale.

There is one good link that explains it very well, even to the point of pinpointing the fact that we could be in the final seven years right now...starting with the year 2006, but this does not pinpoint any specific time of Christ's return, however Daniel talks of a woman giving birth (metaphorically of course) to a child half way through this 7 year period, which I believe is the first resurrection....

It's all speculation, but I'll post a good link to the final 7 year theory later....

Oh wait here it is: www.KirkCameronsrapture.com

No wait here it is www.WayoftheMaster.com

Seriously you gotta check this out Comp. it will make you chuckle, just looked at it for the first time myself...

FFH said:

I've seen this explained by several different Christian organizations several different times and there is no way to grasp this unless you see it on a history time scale.

There is one good link that explains it very well, even to the point of pinpointing the fact that we could be in the final seven years right now...starting with the year 2006, but this does not pinpoint any specific time of Christ's return, however Daniel talks of a woman giving birth (metaphorically of course) to a child half way through this 7 year period, which I believe is the first resurrection....

It's all speculation, but I'll post a good link to the final 7 year theory later....

Oh wait here it is: www.KirkCameronsrapture.com

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where in that explanation does it talk about 7 years of tribulation at the end of the world?

comprehend said:

where in that explanation does it talk about 7 years of tribulation at the end of the world?

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The way that he posted that makes my eyes bug out, so I'll just post the scripture in Daniel that I see talks about this final 7 year period.

It's pretty much based on this part of Daniel

Daniel 9: 24-27

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks:(69 weeks) the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off (62 weeks), but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week (7 years): and in the midst of the week (3 1/2 years) he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of the abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consumation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Okay this really means nothing until you look at the history of the Bible, then it all comes together and the Bible history which links this all together is on my home computer and I'm still at work just typing on the forum so I'll head home and see if I can find that link again and post it.

Daniel 9:1-2

Starting from here Daniel measures this prophecy in terms of 70 weeks

1 In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans;

2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.

This prophecy is centered around events that have happened in Jerusalem up until the end of the world/end of days/end times/final 7 years when Jerusalem will be made desolate...

FFH said:

Daniel 9:1-2

Starting from here Daniel measures this prophecy in terms of 70 weeks

1 In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans;

2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.

This prophecy is centered around events that have happened in Jerusalem up until the end of the world/end of days/end times/final 7 years when Jerusalem will be made desolate...

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I am still waiting for anything that talks about the supposed 7 year time period at the end. You haven't shown me any evidence for it to even exist. That scripture is talking about 70 years. It doesn't say anything about 7 years and it is not talking about the end times...

This also gives a time frame in more detail. This is not only talking about literal days, but also years, so there is a dual prophecy here, which is amazing...

Again the Biblical history that helps to spell this out get's into the details of this which gets complicated, but will post a link which helps to understand this time frame.

Daniel 12:7,10-13

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; (3 1/2 years) and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and rried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the that abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. (about 3 1/2 years)

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Okay there's the scriptures all I need is the link to the history that ties this all together...

May have to do some revisions so this makes sense...

comprehend said:

I am still waiting for anything that talks about the supposed 7 year time period at the end. You haven't shown me any evidence for it to even exist. That scripture is talking about 70 years. It doesn't say anything about 7 years and it is not talking about the end times...

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Go back and look there is a 69 week period, then there is a final week to complete the 70 week prophecy concerning Jerusalem and the Jews.... There is a big gap in between the 69 weeks of the prophecy and the final week of the prophecy. The 69 week period in history stops at the destruction of the Jewish temple in Jerusalem and will only begin again when a new temple in Jerusalem is built....This should signify or mark the beginning of the final trubulation for the Jews.

Half way into this 7 year period a newly completed Jewish temple is taken over by another group of people and they desicrate the temple and the Jews are then persecuted and forced out of Jerusalem for a final 3 1/2 year period.

The whole tribulation thing is measured according to the persecutions heaped upon the Jews in the last days....

The rebuilding of a new temple in Jerusalem should give us a time frame to work with on this final week of Daniel's prophecy or final 7 year persecution of the Jews....

This prophecy is only dealing with the Jews not the rest of the world although I think there will be similar persecutions for those who have to endure this period...

FFH said:

Go back and look there is a 69 week period, then there is a final week to complete the 70 week prophecy concerning Jerusalem and the Jews.... There is a big gap in between the 69 weeks of the prophecy and the final week of the prophecy. The 69 week period in history stops at the destruction of the Jewish temple in Jerusalem and will only begin again when a new temple in Jerusalem is built....This should signify or mark the beginning of the final trubulation for the Jews.

Half way into this 7 year period a newly completed Jewish temple is taken over by another group of people and they desicrate the temple and the Jews are then persecuted and forced out of Jerusalem for a final 3 1/2 year period.

The whole tribulation thing is measured according to the persecutions heaped upon the Jews in the last days....

The rebuilding of a new temple in Jerusalem should give us a time frame to work with on this final week of Daniel's prophecy or final 7 year persecution of the Jews....

This prophecy is only dealing with the Jews not the rest of the world although I think there will be similar persecutions for those who have to endure this period...

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the temple was already rebuilt after this prophecy. It was rebuilt just before Christ was born, what are you talking about?

comprehend said:

I am still waiting for anything that talks about the supposed 7 year time period at the end. You haven't shown me any evidence for it to even exist. That scripture is talking about 70 years. It doesn't say anything about 7 years and it is not talking about the end times...

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Okay I went back and added the years in...

These prophecies have dual time frames, which is amazing. You have to look at in terms of history and in the literal final years....

Okay I know that doesn't make sense so I'll stop until I get home and find the link which explains it better than I can and which gives the history of this prophecy which has been all but fulfilled except for the final week/7 years...when the Jews will rebuild their temple and it will be desicrated and Jerusalem made desolate..

We can already see the evidence that this prophecy will come true with the President of Iran building his nuclear arsenol in order to destroy Isreal in the future or take it over...

comprehend said:

the temple was already rebuilt after this prophecy. It was rebuilt just before Christ was born, what are you talking about?

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No, I'm talking about a rebuilt Jewish temple on the old temple mount in the final days before Christ comes.

Look I'm not a Bible scholar but it makes sense to me when I read the final chapters of Daniel... I don't know why but it does... I can picture the final scenario vividly and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad fits nicely into the prophecies of Daniel.

This prophecy of Daniel will be completed soon....

Got to go home now...will post more to explain....

FFH said:

No, I'm talkingabout a rebuilt Jewish temple on the old temple mount in the final days before Christ comes.

Look I'm not a Bible scholar but it makes sense to me when I read the final chapters of Daniel... I don't know why but it does... I can picture the final scenario vividly and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad fits nicely into the prophecies of Daniel.

This prophecy of Daniel will be completed soon....

Got to go home now...will post more to explain....

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ok, but all I have seen so far are arbitrary assumptions. You are just making up what you want the scripture to mean...

You know that Jesus returns at the climax of the great tribualtion at armageddon:

Mt 24v29: Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mt 24v30: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Zech 12v8: In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
Zech 12v9: And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
Zech 12v10: And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Rv 19v11: And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rv 19v12: His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rv 19v13: And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rv 19v14: And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

(whom antichrist will see coming by the way so this coming is not unexpected)

Rv 19v19: And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Rv 1v7: Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Lets look at how long this period lasts:

The great tribualtion will last 3 1/2 years (the great is the final half of the tribulation or the final week of years yet deterimined as spoken of by Daniel) Dan 7v25: And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time
Rv 11v2: But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
(forty two months = 3 1/2 years)
"until the gentiles' times have been fulfilled", i.e, until His Second Advent brings antichrist's control of Israel and Jerusalem to a an end as described in Revealtion 19.
The woman (Israel) is kept safe from the persecuting army of antichrist.
Rv 12v6: And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
Rv 12v14: And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
I'd say this is those who heed Jesus' warning:
Mt 24v15: When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Mt 24v16: Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
But the others who are nowhere near these mountains (possibly petra):
Rv 12v17: And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Any way I digress slightly, this second part of the tribulation called the great tribulation begins in the midst of the week of years when antichrist breaks his covenant with Israel and sets up His abomination that makes desolate:

Dan 9v27: And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

So if it is in the middle of the week of years then the first part must also be 3 1/2 years which is some of the things you see happening in the first part of the book of revelation over the whole world. The great tribulation is focused specifically on Israel because of the campaighn of Antichist against the jews and his attepmt to wipe them out, the tribulation in general is spread world wide.

Rv 3v10: Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

comprehend said:

ok, but all I have seen so far are arbitrary assumptions. You are just making up what you want the scripture to mean...

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No, these are amazing dual prophecies with literal documented fulfillments in history in terms of years and in the future in terms of literal days....

The twelve hundred and ninety day prophecy of Daniel is talking in terms of years in Biblical history and also in literal days in the final 3 1/2 years of the final week/7years of this 70 week prophecy.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Starting from Daniel 12: 5[/FONT]

From here on out is not my writing...

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The angel is asked how long will it be before these things happen. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The angel's first reply is a time times and a half. This could be an evasive way of saying two and a half thousand years. Like us, Daniel is not sure what this means, so then the angel says that this information is closed up, and sealed (coded), until the time of the end. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]He then reveals the answer, but in the form of a riddle. This riddle is only solvable by someone with accurate historical knowledge about Judaism and events on the Temple Mount. This information is now available.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]From the moment that the perpetual sacrifice is abolished...[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]This refers to the reforms under King Josiah in 620 BC. These reforms came about because Judaism had been devastated under the rule of the previous king, Manassah, who had tried to convert Israel to the religion of his mother, and he carried out bloody purges against the priesthood and prophets who spoke out against him. The Levites, who had been appointed by Moses to look after the Ark of the Covenant, fled the country and took the Ark with them. The events of this time are well researched and presented by Graham Hancock in his book The Sign and the Seal. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]King Josiah meant to do well, but fifty years had passed and many things had been lost. There was no-one left from the old order to provide guidance, so the new Judaism was somewhat different.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Judaism of Moses demanded that sacrifices take place at the place where the Ark was kept, but Jews who lived in times and places where the Ark was inaccessible would sacrifice at small local shrines instead.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Probably in an attempt to discourage rumours that the Ark was missing, the new Judaism of Josiah forbade any sacrifices apart from those done at the Temple. Consequently, when the Temple was destroyed by the Babylonians, not many years later, ritual sacrifices ended completely. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]...and the appalling abomination set up: a thousand two hundred and ninety days.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The time scale is obviously not days, so if we add 1,290 years to 620 BC we get 671AD (there was no year 0). If we turn our attention to what was happening at this time on the Temple Mount, we find there is a newly built Mosque.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]AD 638 - Omar I captures Jerusalem, leaves the Christian shrines alone, starts to build on the Temple Mount (derelict since the Roman destruction of AD 135), and permits Jews to return to Jerusalem.


[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The prophet Mohammed died in 632 AD, in the years after his death his followers gained control of most of the Middle East. Jerusalem fell in 638 AD to Caliph Omar. At this time the Temple Mount was in ruins. At first a wooden Mosque was built, then in 691 AD, the Dome of the Rock was commissioned, to replace the previous wooden structure. I do not have exact dates for the first Mosque, but the timing for the replacement of the Temple by a different religion is remarkably accurate[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Blessed is he who perseveres and attains one thousand three hundred and thirty five days.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](Quotes from the New Jerusalem Bible, Readers Edition.) [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Adding on a further 1,335 years to 671 AD gives the year 2006, this is also the date revealed by the Bible Code[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In the New Testament Mark 13:14 - Jesus says: "When you see the 'abomination that causes desolation' standing where it does not belong - let the reader understand - then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains."[/FONT]

Okay so that's all greek to anyone who reads it, but it makes sense to me...I need to edit it to reflect the King James wording....

*Paul*,

You do know the history of the doctrine you espouse don't you? And that even the person who first taught it never claimed it was based on Scripture? Do you have any explanation (other than the obvious one which Derby himself admitted) as to why it took 1800 years for anyone to notice this if it really is such an obvious doctrine? Personally, I find it spiritually dangerous to believe as you do as it can lead to a certain arrogance and self-righteousness that is the antithesis of the attitude a Christian should have (an arrogance exemplified by many of its most vocal proponents, though I don't doubt that there are those who manage to avoid it). The only modern doctrine I find even more dangerous is OSAS, to be honest. Both seem like the height of spiritual deception to me.

James

LOL. okey dokey. I have a few questions:

1. what reference is there for the 620 BC date?
2. what website did you get this marvelous information from?
3. so NOTHING at all happened in 671A.D.? So Daniel missed it by 20 years? oops!
4. what evidence do you have that priests fled with the ark?
5. why would you start over with 1335 years rather than just take the additional 45?
6. why didn't anything happen in 2006?
7. the bible code revealed 2006 as the date for what exactly?
8. can you tell me where any of this was talked about in LDS General Conference? I know that you have told me multiple times that you don't believe anything not said in conference, so lets see your conference quotes.
9. are you trying to repeat the magic of the millerites on purpose or is it all a coincidence?
10. Does Far From Home indicate that you are from another planet???

Comp said:

I am still waiting for anything that talks about the supposed 7 year time period at the end. You haven't shown me any evidence for it to even exist. That scripture is talking about 70 years. It doesn't say anything about 7 years and it is not talking about the end times...

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To compress all of this we need to focus on the scripture which deals with the final week, or final 7 years, of the tribulation thrust upon the Jews.

Daniel 9: 27

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week (7 years): and in the midst of the week (3 1/2 years) he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of the abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consumation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

This is a dual prophecy dealing with an event in the past and in the future....

Jesus spoke of this abomination that makes desolate in the last days....

Matthew 24: 15-22
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.