Iraqi kids beat themselves for religious holiday

Comprehend · Jan 29, 2007

This was on FOXnews.com today with this caption: "Iraqi kids beat themselves with chains during Muharram, a Shiite period of mourning, in Karbala."

My questions:

Is this good? Why would a religion encourage little children to flog themselves with chains? To me, this looks like something left over from the stone age. Is this what a religion of peace does?

(oh, and I just remembered I think there are christians who mock crucify themselves and beat themselves into bloody pulps in Asia, same goes for them, what the heck?)

Peace · Jan 29, 2007

comprehend said:
This was on FOXnews.com today with this caption: "Iraqi kids beat themselves with chains during Muharram, a Shiite period of mourning, in Karbala."

My questions:

Is this good? Why would a religion encourage little children to flog themselves with chains? To me, this looks like something left over from the stone age. Is this what a religion of peace does?

Beating oneself has nothing to do with Islam. Islam doesn't encourage such acts and forbids mourning in such a way. It is only a custom of the Shiite sect.

Peace

Booko · Jan 29, 2007

comprehend said:
This was on FOXnews.com today with this caption: "Iraqi kids beat themselves with chains during Muharram, a Shiite period of mourning, in Karbala."

Yeah, sounds like something FOX would run.

Is this good? Why would a religion encourage little children to flog themselves with chains? To me, this looks like something left over from the stone age. Is this what a religion of peace does?

It's a Shia thing, and not universal there either.

What does that have to do with "religion of peace" though? They're whipping themselves -- not someone else.

Ascetic practices like this are common enough in religious history. Medeival Western Christianity had plenty such practices. And if you've read the latest popular fiction, you've noticed that organizations like Opus Dei are still out there.

Baha'u'llah, the founder of the Baha'i Faith, grew up in Iran and was raised a Muslim in the Shi'a sect. The Baha'i Writings do not find these practices to be especially useful in drawing one nearer to God, and fanaticism and asceticism are clearly forbidden in our faith.

(oh, and I just remembered I think there are christians who mock crucify themselves and beat themselves into bloody pulps in Asia, same goes for them, what the heck?)

In the Phillipines, yes. And it's not exactly a mock crucifixion -- they use nails and the whole works. They just don't stay up long enough to die -- because that would be suicide, and of course the Church forbids suicide.

As far as I know, that's a practice of men only -- no women or children.

Dr. Nosophoros · Jan 29, 2007

It makes as much sense as believing a "saviour " was born of a virgin and rose from the dead to save mankind- doesn't really make a whole lot of difference, medieval is medieval.

mostly harmless · Jan 29, 2007

Dr. Nosophoros said:
It makes as much sense as believing a "saviour " was born of a virgin and rose from the dead to save mankind- doesn't really make a whole lot of difference, medieval is medieval.

What Dr. N said.

doppelganger · Jan 29, 2007

To someone who wants to physically beat himself as a path to God, I say, "Knock yourself out!"

Comprehend · Jan 30, 2007

Peace said:
Beating oneself has nothing to do with Islam. Islam doesn't encourage such acts and forbids mourning in such a way. It is only a custom of the Shiite sect.

Peace

Well that is good to hear. Aren't Shiites considered part of Islam or do you mean that the Shiite's are violating Islam by doing this?

Comprehend · Jan 30, 2007

Booko said:
What does that have to do with "religion of peace" though? They're whipping themselves -- not someone else.

Only that teaching kids to whip themselves with chains seems more on the violent side and less on the peaceful side... would you disagree?

Ascetic practices like this are common enough in religious history. Medeival Western Christianity had plenty such practices. And if you've read the latest popular fiction, you've noticed that organizations like Opus Dei are still out there.

and I think all instances of it are bad.

Baha'u'llah, the founder of the Baha'i Faith, grew up in Iran and was raised a Muslim in the Shi'a sect. The Baha'i Writings do not find these practices to be especially useful in drawing one nearer to God, and fanaticism and asceticism are clearly forbidden in our faith.

sounds good to me.

In the Phillipines, yes. And it's not exactly a mock crucifixion -- they use nails and the whole works. They just don't stay up long enough to die -- because that would be suicide, and of course the Church forbids suicide.

As far as I know, that's a practice of men only -- no women or children.

I can't even imagine what would drive them to do such a thing... It all sounds nuts to me.

Booko · Jan 30, 2007

comprehend said:
Only that teaching kids to whip themselves with chains seems more on the violent side and less on the peaceful side... would you disagree?

No, I'd agree. Even if the violence is self-inflicted, it strikes me as desensitizing.

I can't even imagine what would drive them to do such a thing... It all sounds nuts to me.

I can't imagine either. But then, ascetic practices were not heard of in the culture I grew up in either. The closest thing to an ascetic practice would be cutting down on coffee. :sarcastic

Hm, some of the Catholics in the neighborhood would give up something for Lent, but I hardly count giving up dessert for 40 days as an ascetic practice...

ayani · Jan 30, 2007

i do not think kids should be hurting themselves this way- if they are older and would like to undertake acts of self-sacrifice as prayer, i am ok with that. i have sometimes knelt in painful positions out of gratitude and sacrifice to God. granted, i do not whip or cut myself. but i am also an adult, and willing and able to pray for myself. no one has asked me to make these private sacrifices, and i wouldn't demand them of a kid.

happy Ashura, Fox News:

( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqJc9Ns0rX4 )

edit: warning: above is graphic. and commemorates previous Ashura and explosion in Kerbala that damaged the Husayn shrine.

Comprehend · Jan 30, 2007

gracie said:
i do not think kids should be hurting themselves this way- if they are older and would like to undertake acts of self-sacrifice as prayer, i am ok with that. i have sometimes knelt in painful positions out of gratitude and sacrifice to God. granted, i do not whip or cut myself. but i am also an adult, and willing and able to pray for myself. no one has asked me to make these private sacrifices, and i wouldn't demand them of a kid.

happy Ashura, Fox News:

( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqJc9Ns0rX4 )

would you mind my asking what you understand intentionally inflicting pain upon yourself to accomplish? It is not an idea I think I am familiar with.

ayani · Jan 30, 2007

comprehend said:
would you mind my asking what you understand intentionally inflicting pain upon yourself to accomplish? It is not an idea I think I am familiar with.

ok.

in one way, for me, some pain can help focus the mind upon prayer and upon the seriousness of what one is doing. if i am praying for the first time after having had a bad day, a day when i have struggled to keep faith and to be righteous, making a small sacrifice of kneeling brings my body back to God- as opposed to keeping it for myself, my own whims, inclinations, and comfort. it is a reminder, a relatively small one, that i am praying in repentence for mis-using my body (in thought, word, and action) without being mindful. i pray then that i can do a better job of this in the future, and remember from where my body, whether it suffers or feels pleasure, has come from and to Whom it should belong before myself.

Comprehend · Jan 30, 2007

gracie said:
ok.

in one way, for me, some pain can help focus the mind upon prayer and upon the seriousness of what one is doing. if i am praying for the first time after having had a bad day, a day when i have struggled to keep faith and to be righteous, making a small sacrifice of kneeling brings my body back to God- as opposed to keeping it for myself, my own whims, inclinations, and comfort. it is a reminder, a relatively small one, that i am praying in repentence for mis-using my body (in thought, word, and action) without being mindful. i pray then that i can do a better job of this in the future, and remember from where my body, whether it suffers or feels pleasure, has come from and to Whom it should belong before myself.

Thanks. That helped me understan a lot. It is actually quite a bit like how mormons view fasting. Once a month we do not eat for 24 hours and one of the reasons is to help remind us that it should be our spirits in control of our bodies and not the other way around. It kind of helps to refocus us on the spiritual needs we have rather than the physical. It seems that you do something similar. Thanks for sharing that, I was a little nervous to ask and you were very kind to tell me.

Islam · Jan 30, 2007

Shiites are not Muslims , they are a minority less then 10% and have nothing to do with the relegion just claim they follow it

ayani · Jan 30, 2007

comprehend said:
Thanks. That helped me understan a lot. It is actually quite a bit like how mormons view fasting. Once a month we do not eat for 24 hours and one of the reasons is to help remind us that it should be our spirits in control of our bodies and not the other way around. It kind of helps to refocus us on the spiritual needs we have rather than the physical. It seems that you do something similar. Thanks for sharing that, I was a little nervous to ask and you were very kind to tell me.

thank you for listening! i would like to undertake a fast at some point, too. my Baha'i friends fast at a certain time (i can not remember what this is called, sorry!) and i admire their sacrifice for their faith. i understand it as something noble, and emboldening while being humbling, too.

Peace · Jan 30, 2007

Islam said:
Shiites are not Muslims , they are a minority less then 10% and have nothing to do with the relegion just claim they follow it

Don't say that Islam. Whatever Shiites are doing they are still our brothers and sisters in religion. They are our brothers and sisters, for they testify that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah.

Peace

Comprehend · Jan 31, 2007

Booko said:
Yeah, sounds like something FOX would run.

Just because you had to take a shot at FOX, here is CNN's article from today

:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/01/30/ashoura.children.ap/index.html

NABATIYEH, Lebanon (AP) -- The 6-year-old boy screamed and shook his head to avoid the razor blade. But his father held him firmly as Hajj Khodor parted the boy's black hair and sliced his forehead three times with the blade.
Ali Madani's cries became more violent as blood gushed from the wound, covering his small, terrified face.

If you like, I could probably find one on MSNBC too

fullyveiled muslimah · Jan 31, 2007

comprehend said:
Just because you had to take a shot at FOX, here is CNN's article from today :

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/01/30/ashoura.children.ap/index.html

NABATIYEH, Lebanon (AP) -- The 6-year-old boy screamed and shook his head to avoid the razor blade. But his father held him firmly as Hajj Khodor parted the boy's black hair and sliced his forehead three times with the blade.
Ali Madani's cries became more violent as blood gushed from the wound, covering his small, terrified face.

If you like, I could probably find one on MSNBC too

This is absolutely terrible. This is why specifically the ulama/scholars of the shiites are labeled disbelievers. They hold these things to be part and parcel of iman among other practices. The layman adherent to "shi'aism" may not necessarily hold any views of kufr/disbelief but the scholars of the sect understand very well.

In ISlam the label of disbeliever is given when a person claiming to be muslim holds as a religious belief things that are not apart of Islam by no stretch of the imagination. This label is given particularly when the person denies the Islamic version and upholds their own despite being told the truth.

This type of self-inflicted torture is nothing to do with Islam at all.

darkpenguin · Jan 31, 2007

Truly sickening!

painted wolf · Jan 31, 2007

thats "childs play" in comparison to some of the things people do for a Sun Dance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Dance

many religions believe that by experiencing pain you can bring yourself to a higher understanding... some believe that by having pain you lessen the suffering of others or are better at empathizing with others who have gone though pain on your behalf.

All religions have groups that have come to this idea... Christians included.
Let people worship in thier own way and stop trying to find fault in them for it.

wa:do

Iraqi kids beat themselves for religious holiday

Res Ipsa Loquitur

Quran & Sunnah

Deviled Hen

Active Member

Endlessly amused

Through the Looking Glass

Res Ipsa Loquitur

Res Ipsa Loquitur

Deviled Hen

member

Res Ipsa Loquitur

member

Res Ipsa Loquitur

Member

member

Quran & Sunnah

Res Ipsa Loquitur

Evil incarnate!

Charismatic Enigma

Grey Muzzle