Should God have created a world without suffering?

viole said:

Billions of humans died before being born. Ergo, they will be unprepared for the spiritual world.
Ergo, there will psychic suffering. By the billions. For ever.

Even worse.

In that case they should be terminated also spiritually, if God is benevolent.

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If you are talking about life that was aborted, there will be no psychic suffering for them as there will be recompense from God for those children in the spiritual world. I do believe we already covered this on another thread.

THE IMMORTALITY OF CHILDREN

Question.—What is the condition of children who die before attaining the age of discretion or before the appointed time of birth?

Answer.—These infants are under the shadow of the favor of God; and as they have not committed any sin and are not soiled with the impurities of the world of nature, they are the centers of the manifestation of bounty, and the Eye of Compassion will be turned upon them. Some Answered Questions, p. 240

Israel Khan said:

My question then to you is:

How can we find self worth. entertainment, depth and accomplishment without the existence of suffering?

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I do not think that we can and that is one reason suffering exists and is beneficial to humans.

Also, those who suffer most attain the greatest perfection according to my beliefs because they grow their character but facing life's obstacles and surmounting them.

“Men who suffer not, attain no perfection. The plant most pruned by the gardeners is that one which, when the summer comes, will have the most beautiful blossoms and the most abundant fruit.

The labourer cuts up the earth with his plough, and from that earth comes the rich and plentiful harvest. The more a man is chastened, the greater is the harvest of spiritual virtues shown forth by him. A soldier is no good General until he has been in the front of the fiercest battle and has received the deepest wounds.” Paris Talks, p. 51

Israel Khan said:

I choose to do things that require suffering because the end goal is worth more than that suffering. Thus after I have overcome that obstacle, I feel like have more self worth.

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I will admit that I do not go out of my way to look for ways to suffer, but I have never had to since suffering is my constant companion.

With an attitude like yours, you would make a good Baha'i.

“Thou hast written concerning the tests that have come upon thee. To the sincere ones, tests are as a gift from God, the Exalted, for a heroic person hasteneth, with the utmost joy and gladness, to the tests of a violent battlefield, but the coward is afraid and trembles and utters moaning and lamentation.” Bahá’í World Faith, p. 371

ChristineM said:

Almost as big as dictating the human race choise to suffer.

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I'm fine with agreeing we both can only speak for ourselves.

Shadow Wolf said:

It can still go along lines that diminishes and invalidates the suffering people go through.
It's not a choice, it has nothing to do with attachments. When you have chronic pain, you are suffering with pain on a near daily daily basis. Your life may even be limited to what's going on. Like when I'm having a fibromyalgia flair up. It hurts, it aches, and it's hard to get anything done when I'm not even wearing my contact lenses because there's a high chance of spontaneous napping due to fatigue that just doesn't go away.

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Pain is inevitable, I haven't invalidated the pain anyone undergoes.
What I have found is that suffering because of pain is optional.

While I don't think there is anything special or unique about me. However, maybe I'm wrong. Perhaps I am capable of a mental calmness/peace others are not capable of. In which case I am sorry that you are unable to escape your suffering.

Trailblazer said:

I heartily disagree because that is as much as blaming people because they are suffering by saying they could avoid suffering if only....

My training is in psychology so I know that is not true. I cannot even imagine saying that to a client. Such an attitude is completely devoid of compassion.

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Ok, fair enough. I'll accept my special and unique status.

Trailblazer said:

If you are talking about life that was aborted, there will be no psychic suffering for them as there will be recompense from God for those children in the spiritual world. I do believe we already covered this on another thread.

THE IMMORTALITY OF CHILDREN

Question.—What is the condition of children who die before attaining the age of discretion or before the appointed time of birth?

Answer.—These infants are under the shadow of the favor of God; and as they have not committed any sin and are not soiled with the impurities of the world of nature, they are the centers of the manifestation of bounty, and the Eye of Compassion will be turned upon them. Some Answered Questions, p. 240

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This starts having ad hoc patches all over the place.

Physical life is necessary, for some reason, otherwise souls will not be ready for the spiritual world, and that would cost them psychological care for all eternity. Except the case where you are the soul of an aborted kid, where lack of preparation is then corrected by God.

ok, so why doesn’t God create everyone directly in the spiritual world, and applies the same level of correction He applies to kids? Problem solved, for everybody. And that God would be more benevolent than your version thereof, who would be unnecessarily more evil.

ciao

- viole.

AlexanderG said:

Humans choose to get cancer, be born with spina bifida, have buildings collapse on them, get intestinal parasites, or drown in tsunamis? I must have missed that part.

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I must have missed it too. I don't recall anyone other than you saying these things.

Hermit Philosopher said:

To legitimately answer those questions, one would need to know the purpose of worldliness, and - as far as I’m aware of - Scripture does not give us that.

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Do you mean that Scripture does not give us the purpose of having to live through this world and experience worldliness? In many passages the Baha'i scripture explains why we have to endure this world, including the suffering. In short, this would is like a workshop where we can acquire the spiritual qualities we will need in the spiritual world (afterlife). If we don't develop those qualities here then we will be handicapped in the spiritual world. As an analogy a child in the womb needs to develop arms and legs, eyes and ears in the womb so he will be able to function in the physical world. Likewise this physical world is the matrix through which we can develop spiritual qualities we will need to function in the spiritual world.

Nakosis said:

What I have found is that suffering because of pain is optional.

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Have you ever tried it?

HonestJoe said:

I don't believe in any gods so can only answer these question in logical abstract;

I don't see why not. If you have the free option to cause suffering or not, why would you ever choose to cause suffering?

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I did not say that God causes suffering. I asked if God should have created a world without suffering?
So I guess you are saying you think that God should have created a world with no suffering, if that option was available.

HonestJoe said:

I don't know but I've been told God can do anything. Of course, this question presumes God creates humans with physical bodies at all.

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God is omnipotent does not mean that God can do anything, it means that God has all power. God created humans with physical bodies so God cannot change the nature of the physical body without recreating humans..

HonestJoe said:

That would be the default wouldn't it? Suffering doesn't exist because of the material world, it exists because of sentience and consciousness. Rocks, water and air don't suffer.

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Suffering does exist because of the physical world and the way it affects sentience and consciousness.

HonestJoe said:

Again, these questions make no sense to me? Why would anyone choose to cause suffering if they didn't need to?

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Because suffering is beneficial for humans to help build their character even though many people don't like to suffer.

HonestJoe said:

This kind of think leads me to one of the fundamental logical holes in the common monotheist representation of this kind of anthropomorphised God. You can't attribute human-like emotions, ideas and choices to a god without automatically bringing in the flaws and errors of humans too. Either God is like us or isn't. I don't think you can pick and choose aspects to try to make God recognisable and understandable but distant and mysterious at the same time.

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I do not believe that God is anthropomorphic. God is not like us in nature although humans have the potential to reflect God's attributes since humans were made in the image of God. Humans have the potential to reflect attributes of God such as Good, Loving, Gracious, Merciful, Just, Righteous, Forgiving, Patient, and we reflect them to a greater of lesser degree, depending upon how spiritual we are.

Trailblazer said:

I have several questions:

1. Should God have created a world without suffering? If so, why? If not, why not?

2. How could God have created humans with physical bodies without engendering suffering?

3. How could God have created a material world without engendering suffering?

4. If God prevented suffering should God prevent all suffering or just some suffering?

5. If God prevented some suffering should God allow some people to suffer more than other people?

Thanks, Trailblazer.

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From suffering we learn, we grow, we cherish, we have compation/empathy, etc.etc.

Imagine if you didn't suffer from cutting your finger off. Your wouldn't really care.

Imagine if people didn't suffer when a loved one died. People wouldn't really care.

Imagine if someone with a disease didn't suffer. People wouldn't really care nor would they get much help or attention.

The Kilted Heathen said:

Ah, so it's moved here huh?

I doubt this, as questions come from someone seeking answers. You already have your answer,

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No, I do not have all the answers. I learn from everyone on this forum.

The Kilted Heathen said:

and I'm more than certain (given past interaction) that you're going to ignore sound arguments with evidence to call us all whiny children (which I notice you've already primed that line here) and tell us to grow up.

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I am going to ignore unsound arguments and call them out as I deem necessary. If people act like children I will point it out.

The Kilted Heathen said:

I will have you bear in mind that you are asking these questions. You are putting these to test. It is thus poor show, should you accuse of false equivalency down the line, as you are setting up this comparison below and are calling the actions of your god into question.

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If I see people comparing God to humans and expecting God to behave as a human would I will call them out for the fallacy of false equivalency.

The Kilted Heathen said:

If a god is to be touted to others as the pinnacle of moral perfection (e.g. benevolent, as you claimed yesterday) then yes: anything short of a creation unmarred by suffering is not benevolence.

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That is your personal opinion to which you are entitled but it is not a fact. Many people on this thread have already pointed out how suffering has been beneficial to them so that indicates that God is benevolent for providing the opportunity for them to suffer.

The Kilted Heathen said:

The Problem of Evil (the existence of suffering as created/permitted by a benevolent deity) is uniquely a Monotheistic problem, but the solution is quite simple: god isn't good.

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That is your personal opinion to which you are entitled but it is not a fact. Many people on this thread have already pointed out how suffering has been beneficial to them so that indicates that God is benevolent for providing the opportunity for them to suffer.

The Kilted Heathen said:

Quite simple for an all-powerful being; you create things to perfection. That imperfections through suffering and mortality exist is clear and present evidence that either your god intended for there to be these imperfections (in which case he is not benevolent), or he is not all-powerful and his little project grew out of his control.

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Suffering is not an imperfection of the creation except in your personal opinion.

The Kilted Heathen said:

If your god is to be called Benevolent, all suffering indiscriminate of any of his creations ought be prevented. Not because "we don't like it, give give mommy", but because that is what benevolence is.

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That is your personal opinion as to what benevolence is but it is not a fact. Many people on this thread have already pointed out how suffering has been beneficial to them so that indicates that God is benevolent for providing the opportunity for them to suffer.

The Kilted Heathen said:

If a being - your god - has the means and the ability to end something, but does not, he is not benevolent.

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God has the means and the ability to end suffering, but God does not end suffering because suffering is beneficial for humans. An all-knowing God knows what is beneficial for humans whereas no human is all-knowing so all humans don't know what is good for them.

Trailblazer said:

Or cure old people who have Alzheimer's disease. Or cure people with heart disease. Or cure people who are dying of Covid-19.

Why this obsession with children who have cancer? It sounds like you are acting on emotion, not upon reason.

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Seriously? It's well accepted by most societies that children are innocent and vulnerable and we adults act to protect children by parental instinct.

Since you are surprised by this do you not agree?

Nobody can figure it out because nobody is all-knowing. Only God is all-knowing and God already knows.

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You're NOT all-knowing. You have texts that you think are absolute, but since you are not all-knowing you can't be certain. You can believe, but since you are a fallible mortal you could be mistaken. So you can believe a God exists and is all-knowing, but you can;'t know this is true. So you are trapped in a paradox.

To clarify, the God you believe exists might be all-knowing, but that doesn't help you since you are NOT all-knowing.

AppieB said:

To blame somebody is holding somebody accountable for a mistake they have made. It has nothing to do with hating. I was once involved in a car accident and it was the fault of the other person. He was the one to blame. I haven't hated him even for one second.

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I never said that all atheists blame God. Only some atheists in this forum blame God for suffering and other things, such as not proving to them that He exists.

What many atheists say is that God should have prevented suffering because God is omnipotent. Maybe they do not hate God because of suffering, I cannot know if they do unless they tell me.

AppieB said:

Also, I think it's kind of strange you "blame" atheists for humoring you by answering your hypothetical questions and then implying they are inconsistent for blaming God when they don't believe God exists. I hope you understand that they don't believe in the hypothetical, but that they try to answer the question within the premises God exists.

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I do not "blame" atheists for anything, I just call them out when I see illogical arguments or falsities about God.

Atheists cannot blame an entity they do not believe exists, but as soon as an atheist talks about God as if He exists and blames God, that is blaming God. They are not saying that if God existed and did x or did not do x, then God would be x. They are talking as if God exists (not all atheists, just some atheists).

AppieB said:

Do you believe God is good and moral? And if so, how did you come to that conclusion?

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Yes I believe that God is good, but God is not subject to morality because only humans are subject to morality. God sets the standards for human morality but God does not have to adhere to them because God is good by His very nature. God cannot be bad because good is an immutable characteristic of God.

How do I know all if this? I get my information about God from the Baha'i Writings, from what Baha'u'llah wrote.

osgart said:

Natural disasters serve no purpose.

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I think natural "disasters" are needed to regulate the environment. We think of them as disasters because of the devastation to life they cause. We think that we are the most important of creation, but we are just part of the universe, and I guess you could call the devastation collateral damage.

Trailblazer said:

I have several questions:


5. If God prevented some suffering should God allow some people to suffer more than other people?

Thanks, Trailblazer.

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Maybe a disability fom birth is a result of past karma. Maybe that person was a horrible person in a past life and needed to learn to depend on others to become humble. I don't know if I believe this or not, but I am trying to form what I might believe on the issue.

Nimos said:

Yes that would have been awesome. Reason being that suffering in general is not very good

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Why do you think that suffering is not very good?

Nimos said:

The only relevant question is (1), the rest of them assumes that things couldn't have been made differently. Could God have created us as ethereal beings where suffering was not an issue? I guess he could.

Also God could have created us with a feeling or an actual purpose, where suffering wouldn't even be relevant.

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I suppose God could have done both those things you noted above.

Nimos said:

The question is why God chose a physical existence over anything else, assuming that he designed it and could have designed it whatever way he wanted. Often questions like these assumes a lot of things HAS to be a certain way, but I don't personally think those rules apply to God if he is said to have created all and exist outside time and space. Was God forced to create a big bang? If so why? I don't think he was

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I believe that God chose the physical existence because it is a kind of workshop whereby humans can acquire spiritual qualities, which really equates to developing our character. By living life and making good decisions as well as bad decisions, choosing between good and evil, we learn and grow from our experiences.

Sure, God could have created us as spiritual beings who are suited to live in the spiritual world, outside of time and space, but then we would not have the opportunity to learn and grow spiritually by living in the material world.

viole said:

ok, so why doesn’t God create everyone directly in the spiritual world, and applies the same level of correction He applies to kids?

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Because it is preferable for us to live in this physical world and acquire spiritual qualities by struggling and living life.

Thirza Fallen said:

Maybe a disability fom birth is a result of past karma. Maybe that person was a horrible person in a past life and needed to learn to depend on others to become humble. I don't know if I believe this or not, but I am trying to form what I might believe on the issue.

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I do not believe in past lives since I do not believe in reincarnation. I believe that the human soul comes into being at conception, lives through this world and then when we die the soul passes to the spiritual world where it continues to exist for eternity.

I do not think that disabilities are any kind of punishment from God but rather they are simply the luck of the draw. Sometimes children are born with disabilities and that is just an unfortunate circumstance. I don't think that God is deliberately testing people but it could be a test for people which if passed could make them stronger and develop their character. There are many examples of this, people who rise above their disabilities. People are capable of amazing things when they have the right attitude and a strong will.