Do JW baptisms count?

stvdv said:

In Holland we have "Freedom of Religion"
This implies that you are Free to believe what you want

IF you believe you can get baptized by JW
THEN you can go for it

Anyway, belief implies not knowing for sure
Hence just try it out, and if it feels bad then you know

Or ask Jesus if this is His Plan for you (before doing it)
I once said mentally to God "tomorrow I go for it", unless You ...
I got a clear message that my Plan was not His Plan

Best wishes to find the right solution

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Ok that is interesting because Jesus himself was baptized at the age of about 30. And because it is written that he was without sin, he did not get baptized in symbol of repentance. Thanks for your comment.

filthyrottendirty said:

The Christian forum on here is dead and even if it wasn't I don't have enough privilege to post there. So for a Christian can I get baptized by JW?

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JW baptisms are different to most Christian baptisms if not all. JW's dedicate themselves to a non trinitarian God and another questions asked is that they acknowledge that they will be apart of God's spirit anointed organisation, which is loaded as they believe that they are God's only true organisation.

Other Christians who are Trinitarian won't (or shouldn't?) accept their baptism because they are heretics in their eyes.

Then there is the difference as to who benefits directly from Jesus sacrifice. Most Christians believe that Jesus died for all man so any body who believes accepts his sacrifice and become children of God. JW interpretations says that Jesus sacrifice only applies to the anointed who become children of God, but then the rest of the JW's are saved through Christ by assisting the anointed, so it isn't a direct salvation. And it gets complicated from there but that already makes a huge distinction.

PruePhillip said:

There's a very big impediment. Jesus is the only begotten son, and Michael is an angel.
You are right to say that Jesus is not God, but then make the error of saying Jesus is
just another angel.

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No It's not right to say he was not God. The Spirit of God was here on earth dwelling in that body. Colossians 2:8-9

....feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. Acts 20:28

Thomas declared him to be God. John 20:28

God said Hearken ... I am he: I am the first, I also am the last. Isaiah 48:12
The messiah said ... if you believe not that I am he, you shall die in your sins. John 8:24
The messiah also said I am the first and the last. Revelation 22:13

Hebrews 1:8 declares him to be God.

Deeje said:

I guess you need to read scripture more carefully.....

What other angel was "begotten" by the Father as a human? What does the term "begotten" actually mean? Doesn't one who is "begotten" need a "begetter".....and doesn't the "begetter" need to be in existence first, in order to beget an offspring?

And what does "only begotten" (monogenes) mean in relation to Jesus?...since the pre-human Jesus was THE "only begotten son" before he came to be born as a human child on earth......it means that there are no others. "Only" means that the other "sons of God" were not direct creations of the Father, as Jesus was. This makes him unique.

Colossians 1:15-17....
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together." (ESV)

He is the "image" of God...a reflection of him....that does not make him God.
All things were created "through" and "for" the son.....that makes him a separate entity in his own right. He is not God, but he is what he called himself..... "the son of God". (John 10:31-36)

He also identified his Father as "the only true God" without including himself. (John 17:3)

"All things were created" by God through the agency of the son. The Father is the Creator, (Genesis 1:1) and his son worked under his direction through the whole process. He is the "us" and "our" in Genesis 1:26. (See also Proverbs 8:30-31) There are not two creators who think and act independently. One part of God does not pray to himself, or have a will that is different to his other self....nor does one part of God know things that the other part doesn't. When you compare the scriptures to the trinity it couldn't get more ridiculous.



I'm afraid that the impediment is in your own faulty interpretation of the scriptures. Michael is not just an angel.....but the Arch Angel, the Commander of the angelic forces....he is one of a kind in heaven, just as in his human existence, he was one of a kind on earth.

The Bible tells the whole story if you just read what it says as a whole story.....not cherry picking verses that seem to back up what the churches teach. As one who was called out of that rabble, I can assure you that the Bible tells a vastly different story than the corrupted churches have done for centuries.

Study the parable of the "wheat and the weeds" and tell me who the weeds are...where they came from, and when they were planted.....then tell me how one identifies the "wheat"?

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You are claiming the son of God was the angel Michael in a previous life. Hebrews 1:5 clearly refutes that.

You have lots of problems with your statements. For instance YHWH said he made all things and was alone and by himself in Isaiah 44:24

See I don't have that problem since I believe the Messiah was God. It was YHWH himself dwelling in that body.

For behold, YHWH cometh forth out of his place, and will come down, and tread upon the high places of the earth. Micah 1:3
...and what are the high places of Judah? are they not Jerusalem? Micah 1:5


Side Note: It's almost humorous how your go to, is to pretend your opposition believes in the trinity. Trinitarians believe in multiple persons in the Godhead. I don't. I believe the one God wrapped himself in a body of flesh, and shed his blood for our sins. Acts 20:28 ...feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Deeje said:

John ch 1 in no way presents Jesus as God Almighty.....
The Greek presents a different story.
" In en the beginning archē was eimi the ho Word logos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi with pros · ho God theos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi God theos.
The Word (Logos) was with "ho theos" (THE God) but he was not "ho theos". Without the definite article in the second mention of "theos", it makes the Logos a "god", (mighty one) but not THE God.

John 1:14...
" And kai the ho Word logos became ginomai flesh sarx and kai dwelt skēnoō among en us hēmeis, and kai we gazed theaomai on · ho his autos glory doxa, glory doxa as hōs of the only monogenēs Son from para the Father patēr, full plērēs of grace charis and kai truth alētheia."

It was the "Logos" who became flesh...not ho theos......

John 1:18....The Mounce Interlinear has taken license with this verse, no doubt influenced by the trinity....
" No one oudeis has horaō ever pōpote seen horaō God theos. The only monogenēs Son , himself God theos, the ho one who is eimi in eis the ho bosom kolpos of the ho Father patēr, he ekeinos has made him known exēgeomai."
As you can see, pro-trinitarian words have been inserted that were not there in the Greek....
"No one has ever seen God".....if this was talking about Jesus then it makes no sense.....thousands saw Jesus.
It clearly says "monogenes theos" which correctly translated means "only begotten god". There is no "Son" who was "himself God" even mentioned there.....I believe that you've been conned into accepting the greatest blasphemy in the history of Christianity....a product of the "weeds".


"Firstborn" mean exactly what it infers.....if you have a firstborn son....he is your first child.....he will always be your firstborn even if you have many sons after him. Were there more "sons of God"? YES! probably millions of them because God has a whole family of spirit "sons" in heaven....all are his direct creations, through the agency of his firstborn. (Colossians 1:15-17; John 1:3) Creation came "through" the son, from the Father.


That sounds like spin to me.....where is this stated?
According to Strongs, "prōtotokos" means ....

1. "the firstborn
   1. of man or beast
      
      
   2. of Christ, the first born of all creation"

You are making Paul say something he never did. Strongs has no listing for "protoktistos"....meaning that it is not even mentioned in the NASB20 or the KJV. Where did you get it from?



Where does it say "over all creation"?
In the Mounce Interlinear it says....
"To the ho angel angelos of the ho church ekklēsia in en Laodicea Laodikeia write graphō: The ho Amen amēn, the ho faithful pistos and kai true alēthinos Witness martys, · ho the ho Beginning archē of ho God’ s theos creation ktisis, · ho has legō this hode to say legō:" (Revelation 3:14)

Jesus is called "the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation"....are you going to try and read the trinity into every scripture that did not originally contain it? Who told you that Jesus was God...or that he even needed to be?
Before the Catholic church formulated this doctrine and introduced it through many controversies, the trinity did not exist......it was not taught by Christ or any of his apostles because no one believed in such a thing back in the first century....it was a fourth century adoption.....a time when the "weeds" had all but choked out the "wheat".

Were the apostles in any doubt about who Jesus was?
1 Corinthians 8:5-6...
" For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is only one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him." (NASB)

Was Jesus under any illusions as to who his Father was?
John 17:3...
"And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, AND Jesus Christ whom You have sent."

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If firstborn always means the first born why was the word applied to David when he was the last born son? It is clear the context shows that the term was referring to David’s position of preeminence.

It is the Watchtower’s NWT which has inserted words and altered the Bible to fit their particular antichrist slant. The insertion of the word OTHER is one example. There are others, including the addition of “a” in John 1:1 in an attempt to turn Jesus into “a god” instead of God.


“Because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist.” Colossians 1:16-17 – NWT

The word “OTHER” does not appear AT ALL in either of these two verses in the original Greek manuscripts, as attested to by the correct translation of these verses in the King James version:

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.” Colossians 1:16-17 – KJV“
https://comingintheclouds.org/christian-resources/religions/jw-adders/

The Catholic Church has deviated extremely from the scriptures, but it did not invent the Trinity. The triune nature of God is revealed throughout the scriptures, as it is stamped upon God’s creation.


“The Bible presents a God who did not need to create any beings to experience love, communion and fellowship. This God is complete in Himself, being three Persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit, separate and distinct, yet at the same time eternally one God. They loved and communed and fellowshiped with each other and took counsel together before the universe, angels or man were brought into existence. Isaiah "heard the voice of the Lord [in eternity past] saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?" (Isa:6:8). Moses revealed the same counseling together of the Godhead: "And God said, Let us make man in ourimage, after our likeness"; and again, "Let us go down, and there confound their language" (Gen:1:26
;11:7). Who is this "us" if God is a single entity? Why does God say, "The man is become as one of us" (Gen:3:22)?

Moreover, if God is a single Being, then why is the plural Hebrew noun elohim(literally "gods") used for God repeatedly?

“In Romans:1:20 Paul argues that God's "eternal power and Godhead" are seen in the creation He made. God's eternal power—but His Godhead? Yes, as Dr. Wood pointed out years ago in The Secret of the Universe, the triune nature of God is stamped on His creation. The cosmos is divided into three: space, matter and time. Each of these is divided into three. Space, for instance, is composed of length, breadth and width, each separate and distinct in itself, yet the three are one. Length, breadth and width are not three spaces, but three dimensions comprising one space. Run enough lines lengthwise and you take in the whole. But so it is with the width and height. Each is separate and distinct, yet each is all of space—just as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is each God.

Time also is a trinity: past, present and future—two invisible and one visible. Each is separate and distinct, yet each is the whole. Man himself is a triunity of spirit, soul and body, two of which are invisible, one visible. Many more details could be given of the Godhead's triunity reflected in the universe. It can hardly be coincidence.”

The Trinity

TrueBeliever37 said:

For behold, YHWH cometh forth out of his place, and will come down, and tread upon the high places of the earth. Micah 1:3
...and what are the high places of Judah? are they not Jerusalem? Micah 1:5

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Your right about Isaiah but it looks like Micah is describing his wrath of you keep reading. It's not saying God literally came down from heaven to dwell in earth.

PruePhillip said:

Just this for now... re 'less educated'
reminds me of Jesus consorting with the 'poor'
both are wrong -----

Luke was one of the greatest historians of the classic age.
Matthew was a highly educated, wealthy man
Paul was a very educated and well to do man
Simeon and Anna were from the priesthood, and educated.
John and James came from a business family - most like educated and well off
Mary and Martha were fairly well off (that alabaster box was worth about $75k)
I suppose all the ministry was literate and probably multi-lingual.

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Just to be clear.....when I said “uneducated”, I was referring to the kind of education that Jews expected of those who spoke of religious matters.
Acts 4:13....
“Now when they saw the outspokenness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated and ordinary men, they were astonished. And they began to realize that they had been with Jesus.“

John 7:14-15....
“14 When the festival was half over, Jesus went up into the temple and began teaching. 15 And the Jews were astonished, saying: “How does this man have such a knowledge of the Scriptures when he has not studied at the schools?”

These were referring to the rabbinical schools...religious education. Much like people today expect those who are religious teachers to have attended a theological institution of some sort....but the same applies in our day too. History is repeating as the Bible says it would. Christendom and Judaism are mirror images on one another, both corrupted by God's enemy in the same tried and tested way.

So, it means that the 12 were educated by Jesus, not by the Pharisees. A person's wealth or lack of it was not of any consequence unless a person was materialistic. You don't have to be rich to be materialistic, but it helps....what did Jesus say about how difficult it would be for a rich man to enter the Kingdom? (Matthew 19:21-24)

PruePhillip said:

There shouldn't be any doctrines about the nature of eternity because none is provided. John did not know what form we will take in eternity when the flesh is gone, but it DOESN'T MATTER. What matters is who we are with.

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It is apparent that you have no knowledge of the restoration prophesies in Isaiah. These restoration prophesies, like others recorded in the Bible have a dual fulfillment....one in ancient times and a larger fulfillment in this “time of the end”.

Isaiah 2:2-4 says.....
“In the final part of the days,
The mountain of the house of Jehovah
Will become firmly established above the top of the mountains,
And it will be raised up above the hills,
And to it all the nations will stream.
3 And many peoples will go and say:
“Come, let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah,
To the house of the God of Jacob.
He will instruct us about his ways,
And we will walk in his paths.”
For law will go out of Zion,
And the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem.
4 He will render judgment among the nations
And set matters straight respecting many peoples.
They will beat their swords into plowshares
And their spears into pruning shears.
Nation will not lift up sword against nation,
Nor will they learn war anymore.”

This demonstrates that the prophesies were more far reaching than just Israel’s return to their homeland. This was also about the “final part of the days”...a time when all the nations would stream into Jehovah’s “mountain” (representing his Kingdom, as Mt Zion did in the days of ancient Israel)

These prophesies pointed forward to the establishment of God’s Kingdom rule over redeemed mankind on earth. Those illustrations are not depictions of heaven but a restoration of God’s first purpose for this earth. Why do you think he put us here? As a training ground for heaven? Why would he when the angels were already created to live and serve God there. We have an important purpose here. Do you know what it is?

I see these paintings of heaven that clearly are just man's imagination I don't read anything in scripture that eternity is anything like this. Is there every any rain here? What happens after the third day of looking at this landscape? Do the children get to grow up? And woudn't you then miss their childhood? What happens when that mountain gets worn down?
What happens if you are in eternity but your partner isn't?
I could think of a million such silly but important questions. No-where do you see people here serving God, just living a life of idle pleasure.

View attachment 53123

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These questions are well answered in those prophesies in Isaiah....

Isaiah 45:18...
“For this is what Jehovah says,
The Creator of the heavens, the true God,
The One who formed the earth, its Maker who firmly established it,
Who did not create it simply for nothing, but formed it to be inhabited:
“I am Jehovah, and there is no one else.”

God did not create the earth for nothing....he meant for it to be inhabited....forever. It is firmly established and will be here for eternity.

InChrist said:

If firstborn always means the first born why was the word applied to David when he was the last born son? It is clear the context shows that the term was referring to David’s position of preeminence.

It is the Watchtower’s NWT which has inserted words and altered the Bible to fit their particular antichrist slant. The insertion of the word OTHER is one example. There are others, including the addition of “a” in John 1:1 in an attempt to turn Jesus into “a god” instead of God.


“Because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist.” Colossians 1:16-17 – NWT

The word “OTHER” does not appear AT ALL in either of these two verses in the original Greek manuscripts, as attested to by the correct translation of these verses in the King James version:

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.” Colossians 1:16-17 – KJV“
https://comingintheclouds.org/christian-resources/religions/jw-adders/

The Catholic Church has deviated extremely from the scriptures, but it did not invent the Trinity. The triune nature of God is revealed throughout the scriptures, as it is stamped upon God’s creation.


“The Bible presents a God who did not need to create any beings to experience love, communion and fellowship. This God is complete in Himself, being three Persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit, separate and distinct, yet at the same time eternally one God. They loved and communed and fellowshiped with each other and took counsel together before the universe, angels or man were brought into existence. Isaiah "heard the voice of the Lord [in eternity past] saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?" (Isa:6:8). Moses revealed the same counseling together of the Godhead: "And God said, Let us make man in ourimage, after our likeness"; and again, "Let us go down, and there confound their language" (Gen:1:26
;11:7). Who is this "us" if God is a single entity? Why does God say, "The man is become as one of us" (Gen:3:22)?

Moreover, if God is a single Being, then why is the plural Hebrew noun elohim(literally "gods") used for God repeatedly?

“In Romans:1:20 Paul argues that God's "eternal power and Godhead" are seen in the creation He made. God's eternal power—but His Godhead? Yes, as Dr. Wood pointed out years ago in The Secret of the Universe, the triune nature of God is stamped on His creation. The cosmos is divided into three: space, matter and time. Each of these is divided into three. Space, for instance, is composed of length, breadth and width, each separate and distinct in itself, yet the three are one. Length, breadth and width are not three spaces, but three dimensions comprising one space. Run enough lines lengthwise and you take in the whole. But so it is with the width and height. Each is separate and distinct, yet each is all of space—just as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is each God.

Time also is a trinity: past, present and future—two invisible and one visible. Each is separate and distinct, yet each is the whole. Man himself is a triunity of spirit, soul and body, two of which are invisible, one visible. Many more details could be given of the Godhead's triunity reflected in the universe. It can hardly be coincidence.”

The Trinity

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The "us" is the divine council of other gods (angels). Psalms 82. Same for Gen 3.22's "See, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil". The other deities are implicitly present but not participants in creation (cf. Job 38:6-7).

In Hebrew, verbs are conjugated differently if they are singular or plural. The verb "created" in that verse is in the singular conjugation, so it's certainly meant to be a singular deity.

There's a lot of info on the meaning of the word on its wikipedia page: Elohim - Wikipedia

In English there is the word “we”. This word can be used to refer to a single person. It’s called the royal we. In Hebrew there are many words like this.

Judaism's core statement is as follows:

שמע, ישראל, יהוה אלוהינו, יהוה אחד.

Which translates to:

"Listen, Israel, the Lord is our G-d, the Lord is one."

Continued...
In Isaiah 65:1-3 we see the far reaching nature of these prophesies.
God said....
“I have let myself be searched for by those who did not ask for me;
I have let myself be found by those who did not look for me.
I said, ‘Here I am, here I am!’ to a nation that was not calling on my name.
2 I have spread out my hands all day long to a stubborn people,
To those walking in the way that is not good,
Following their own thoughts;
3 A people who constantly offend me to my face...”

In contrasting his own stubborn people to those of other nations who would seek him in that future time, Isaiah spoke of these other nations who would come in to worship him.

Today, those who become disciples of God’s son are not restricted to Israel (as they were in Jesus’ day) when all the first Christians were Jewish. After Jesus’ death and resurrection, the apostles were authorised to accept Gentiles into the Christian congregations and the decided split with Judaism was complete.

People of other nations were now embraced by God as he had promised Abraham all along....using his descendants to bring his Messiah into the world. (Genesis 22:18)

What did God foretell as far as conditions on earth would be?

Isaiah 65:17-25 answers....
“For look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth;
And the former things will not be called to mind,
Nor will they come up into the heart.”

Here is a promise that all the trauma we have suffered as a result of being sold into sin by Adam, will not hang around to be relived in our minds. We will forget it all while enjoying wonderful surroundings. Man’s version of life on earth will be replaced by God’s version......embracing nature rather than selfishly interfering with it.

“18 So exult and be joyful forever in what I am creating.
For look! I am creating Jerusalem a cause for joy
And her people a cause for exultation.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem and exult in my people;
No more will there be heard in her the sound of weeping or a cry of distress.”
20 “No more will there be an infant from that place who lives but a few days,
Nor an old man who fails to live out his days.
For anyone who dies at a hundred will be considered a mere boy,
And the sinner will be cursed, even though he is a hundred years of age.”

What a wonderful promise! Joy will replace tragedy. No more weeping or cries of distress. No more losing our precious babies or children to disease or accident. Old age and all it’s problems will be a thing of the past, as the human life span increases to what God originally intended it to be.....everlasting life.

So what else can we look forward to?

“21 They will build houses and live in them,
And they will plant vineyards and eat their fruitage.
22 They will not build for someone else to inhabit,
Nor will they plant for others to eat.
For the days of my people will be like the days of a tree,
And the work of their hands my chosen ones will enjoy to the full.
23 They will not toil for nothing,
Nor will they bear children for distress,
Because they are the offspring made up of those blessed by Jehovah,
And their descendants with them.“

Are you getting a picture of what we lost in Eden? All these things are given back. Ability to grow our own food and build our own houses and enjoy the work that God put us here to do. God’s blessing will ensure that all of this will take place.

24 Even before they call out, I will answer;
While they are yet speaking, I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb will feed together,
The lion will eat straw just like the bull,
And the serpent’s food will be dust.
They will do no harm nor cause any ruin in all my holy mountain,” says Jehovah.”

I don’t know about you, but everything in me knows that this is the life we were meant to live.....no heaven or hell, just enjoyable life in the beautiful conditions that God gave our first parents......forever working and enjoying maintaining those ideal conditions....because that is what would make life ideal. Please tell me why you would tire of such a life, which would naturally include our worship and continual thanksgiving......

filthyrottendirty said:

Judaism's core statement is as follows:

שמע, ישראל, יהוה אלוהינו, יהוה אחד.

Which translates to:

"Listen, Israel, the Lord is our G-d, the Lord is one."

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Exactly and you can see the tetragrammaton clearly in the text יהוה

That would read..."Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one".
He was not a threesome then, and he is not a threesome now. Nowhere is all of scripture is Jesus ever called "Yahweh". The Father alone is "the Most High" (Psalm 83:18)...he shares his godship with no one.

Deeje said:

It is apparent that you have no knowledge of the restoration prophesies in Isaiah. These restoration prophesies, like others recorded in the Bible have a dual fulfillment....one in ancient times and a larger fulfillment in this “time of the end”.
.

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A lot of the prophecies concerning Isaiah and Ezekiel are being fulfilled now.
Isaiah spoke of the Jews coming back to their land 'a second time' and I have
been reading in recent days Ezekiel 36-38 - the battered Jewish survivors who
come back to inhabit the land.
Sure, lots of this stuff is symbolic. But as one who has gone through the near-
death-experience, I wouldn't want to live on this earth.

Deeje said:

what did Jesus say about how difficult it would be for a rich man to enter the Kingdom? (Matthew 19:21-24)

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Sure, it's hard but not impossible. I suggest that at a minimum, half of the twelve
disciples came from well-to-do backgrounds. The rest we aren't told about.
And the Gentiles - the Centurion, Lydia the merchant, Cornelius were all well-off
I susect, if not outright rich.

The issue of being 'rich' concerns how riches effect your behavior and attitude.
Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Job, David, Solomon, Hezakiah etc were all
fabulously rich.

If you believe in the trinity with all your heart, then who am I to tell you differently? Nothing I say will make one scrap of difference, not even if I show you scripture where Christ and his apostles clearly denied any such triune nature of their God, whom they knew was not Jesus. (John 17:3; 1 Corinthians 8:5-6)

InChrist said:

If firstborn always means the first born why was the word applied to David when he was the last born son? It is clear the context shows that the term was referring to David’s position of preeminence.

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David was a prophetic figure of Jesus Christ, whose throne he was to take as a future successor. In Ezekiel 43:23-24, Jehovah uses David to prophetically speak of his appointed "shepherd" over his sheep. (John 10:11)

At Hebrews 13:20, Paul writes...
"Now may the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep, our Lord Jesus, with the blood of an everlasting covenant"......so are we to imagine that one part of God raised from the dead, an equal part of himself? Can part of an immortal God die and be raised from the dead?

InChrist said:

It is the Watchtower’s NWT which has inserted words and altered the Bible to fit their particular antichrist slant. The insertion of the word OTHER is one example. There are others, including the addition of “a” in John 1:1 in an attempt to turn Jesus into “a god” instead of God.

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All the word "other" demonstrates is that Jesus was first....all "other" things came after him. The scripture itself says as much. All things were brought into existence "through" the son, who must thereby have existed before "all things". Its just logical.

But please don't get me started on John 1:1.....it is clear in the Greek that two "gods" are spoken about in that verse. The Greek word for "god" (theos) does not mean the same as it does to English speakers. All it means is 'a mighty one who has divine authority...."a god". The polytheistic Greeks had no word for an individual god with no name. Since the Jews had stopped using the divine name (without God's sanction or command I might add) the Greeks had no way to distinguish the one nameless God of the Jews, so they used the definite article "ho" (THE) to speak of "THE God".....In John 1:1 only one god is "THE God", Yahweh. The other god has divine authority ("theos" but with no definite article) so he is not THE God. He is the Logos and it was the Logos who "became flesh"...not THE God. (John 1:14)

Jesus is said to be "with God" "in the beginning"....if God is an eternal being, then he had no beginning. According to Revelation 3:14, the creation of God's "only begotten son" was his first act of creation. Why would anyone want to make a servant of God, into God himself? (Acts 3:13, 26)
I can only think of one troublemaker who would want to do that. Its how he can separate people from God without them being aware that he is doing it. Altering the very nature of God was no easy task....it took many years and lots of controversy to make it into doctrine.....but once there....it became the foundation doctrine of the church. But the foundation is built on sand because there is no trinity in the Bible. The Catholic church even admits that.
This belief breaks the first Commandment. (Exodus 20:3)
You have three equal gods in place of the one God of Abraham.

John 1:18....is also very interesting if we are going by what is translated from the Greek. It says that "no one has ever seen God".....how could anyone interfere with that clear and unambiguous statement?...well, reading on we see something disturbing. It says that "the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." Yet in Greek it clearly says "monogenes theos" which is translated literally as "only begotten god"......yet every translation I looked up has replaced "god" with "son". So If verse 18 translates "theos" as "son", then verse 1 should translate it that way too, making it read....."the Word was with God and the Word was the son".
You want to talk about playing around with scripture? There you have a very serious breach created by trinitarian bias....so much more serious than adding the word "other" which was indicated in the verse anyway. This is altering scripture in a way that is seriously deceptive.

InChrist said:

“Because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist.” Colossians 1:16-17 – NWT

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What does the inclusion alter? The verses say the same with or without the use of the word "other".

InChrist said:

The Catholic Church has deviated extremely from the scriptures, but it did not invent the Trinity. The triune nature of God is revealed throughout the scriptures, as it is stamped upon God’s creation.

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The trinity would not be accepted in "Christendom" without them. The "weeds" of Jesus parable were not planted recently. It took over three hundred years to get it accepted. And it was believed without challenge until "the time of the end" foretold by Daniel.....only then would a thorough 'cleansing, whitening and purifying' take place among God's people due to revealed knowledge that would "become abundant" in this time period. (Daniel 12:4; 9-10)

Sadly, although the Reformation did break the power of the Roman church and give people back the Bible, it did not succeed in eradicating all of Catholicisms false doctrines. The three biggest ones went with them. The trinity, immortality of the human soul, and a hell of eternal torment. None of which exist in the Bible.

InChrist said:

“The Bible presents a God who did not need to create any beings to experience love, communion and fellowship. This God is complete in Himself, being three Persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit, separate and distinct, yet at the same time eternally one God. They loved and communed and fellowshiped with each other and took counsel together before the universe, angels or man were brought into existence. Isaiah "heard the voice of the Lord [in eternity past] saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?" (Isa:6:8). Moses revealed the same counseling together of the Godhead: "And God said, Let us make man in ourimage, after our likeness"; and again, "Let us go down, and there confound their language" (Gen:1:26;11:7). Who is this "us" if God is a single entity? Why does God say, "The man is become as one of us" (Gen:3:22)?

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God was not alone when he "created the heavens and the earth". He was assisted by his firstborn son who was a Master Worker at his side. (Proverbs 8:30-31) Colossians 1:15-17 doesn't say that Jesus is the creator but that creation came "through" him and was created "for" him. He was the agency used to bring about both the material and immaterial creation.

InChrist said:

Moreover, if God is a single Being, then why is the plural Hebrew noun elohim(literally "gods") used for God repeatedly?

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Have you never heard of "the plural of majesty"? Its the royal "WE".

InChrist said:

“In Romans:1:20 Paul argues that God's "eternal power and Godhead" are seen in the creation He made. God's eternal power—but His Godhead?

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There is no such word in scripture. The word is "theiotēs" and it means "divine nature". It appears only once in the Bible and Christendom has seized it to make it say what it never did.

InChrist said:

Many more details could be given of the Godhead's triunity reflected in the universe. It can hardly be coincidence.”

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Many numbers are used in the Bible symbolically.....three is only one of them.
Applying the number 3 to God himself, who identifies himself as "ONE Yahweh" can never make him three unless he tell us so. If he was a triune Being, he would come out and clearly state it....so would Jesus, but neither one ever said that Jesus was God or that the holy spirit was God.....the Catholic church did that.

PruePhillip said:

A lot of the prophecies concerning Isaiah and Ezekiel are being fulfilled now.
Isaiah spoke of the Jews coming back to their land 'a second time' and I have
been reading in recent days Ezekiel 36-38 - the battered Jewish survivors who
come back to inhabit the land.

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We are actually studying Ezekiel right now as a world wide brotherhood. It is amazing how dry the bones were when God brought them back to life. This far reaching prophesy has its fulfillment in our day too. God has again clothed dry bones and brought them to life to carry out the work of preaching about God's Kingdom....something that was to be done "in all the inhabited earth as a witness to all the nations" before God brings the curtain down on this wicked system of things ruling mankind. (Matthew 24:14) Christ has returned and all the features of the sign he gave to indicate his presence have been fulfilled including this pandemic.....but the worst is yet to come...the greatest tribulation in the history of man is about to be unleashed. (Matthew 24:21) It will be the last part of sinking this ship and rescuing the faithful in lifeboats.....not literal ones but God has provided protection for his people like he provided the plans for Noah to build his ark. He didn't build it for him, so we have to work hard for our salvation as well...it is not handed to us on a silver platter.

Sure, lots of this stuff is symbolic. But as one who has gone through the near-
death-experience, I wouldn't want to live on this earth.

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Are you sure that your NDE was from God? There is a clever trickster who will take advantage of a person weakened by illness or other near death circumstance. These NDE's are nearly always in accord with one's religious upbringing and can be anything from pleasant to down right terrifying.
Some see God or Jesus and some see hell.....but many tell of being drawn to "the light". It isn't always God holding the torch however. (2 Corinthians 11:14-15)

Deeje said:

Exactly and you can see the tetragrammaton clearly in the text יהוה

That would read..."Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one".
He was not a threesome then, and he is not a threesome now. Nowhere is all of scripture is Jesus ever called "Yahweh". The Father alone is "the Most High" (Psalm 83:18)...he shares his godship with no one.

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Wrong - He was called YHWH in multiple places. They just changed the name to Lord just like they did in the Old Testament. Except at least in the old testament they kept it in all caps (LORD) to let us know they did it.

Every knee will bow and every tongue confess that he is YHWH. Philippians 2:9-11
( He that has seen me has seen the Father. John 14:8-9 )

Deeje said:

John ch 1 in no way presents Jesus as God Almighty.....
The Greek presents a different story.
" In en the beginning archē was eimi the ho Word logos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi with pros · ho God theos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi God theos.
The Word (Logos) was with "ho theos" (THE God) but he was not "ho theos". Without the definite article in the second mention of "theos", it makes the Logos a "god", (mighty one) but not THE God.

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Here is a major problem for you. YHWH said in Isaiah 44:8 - Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God: I know not any. (So YHWH said there wasn't even a God beside him.)

And there are places in the scripture where YHWH is called mighty. ( example Isaiah 1:24 and Jeremiah 32:18) So just because he was called mighty in one scripture doesn't exclude him from being the almighty.

In fact before he ascended he said he had all power in heaven and in earth. And he is the head of all principality and power. Colossians 2:9-10 That means he is the almighty.

filthyrottendirty said:

Your right about Isaiah but it looks like Micah is describing his wrath of you keep reading. It's not saying God literally came down from heaven to dwell in earth.

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So say you. The scripture said he would tread on the high places of the earth. Argue with the scriptures if you choose.

The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of YHWH, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. Isaiah 40:3

...say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your God! Isaiah 40:9

The voice turned out to be John the Baptist. Matthew 3:1-3 Question for you: Who did John prepare the way for?