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Special Pleading and the PoE (Part 2)

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Atheists love to say that God is omnipotent but they omit that He is also omniscient.
But why didn't then make humans without the possibility, say, of genetic diseases? What is the reason of terrible genetic diseases? Why need children need to suffer for something that, with a better design, could have been avoided without affecting free will, and all that stuff?

Just sweeping that under the rug of omniscience, and that He knows better, does not explain anything. It is a trump card that theists use when they have no explanations.

I could actually posit, with the same evidence, that God is evil, and the good we see in the world is because God is omniscient and always knows the ultimately worst course of action.
Grow up and accept reality. God is not Superman.
Grow up and accept reality. Your God and Superman have exactly the same evidence of existing.

Ciao

- viole
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Only in your opinion would a benevolent being do that.
Do you know more than an omniscient God regarding what is benevolent?

Because that was not the best course of action, and an omniscient being always knows the best course of action from all the available options.

If a benevolent being doesn't prevent suffering, how can it be benevolent? Think of it this way: If you watched someone dying of smallpox but at the same you had the cure in your hands, completely free of charge to you, would you call yourself benevolent if you let that person suffer and die?
 
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Koldo

Outstanding Member
There is nothing an omnipotent God can't do to help people in need but there is plenty that an omnipotent God won't do to help people in need, because God wants humans to help themselves and other humans in need.

Why is that so hard to understand?

God is spirit, not not a human being who can come swooping down from heaven to help people, but that does not mean God is not omnipotent. God resides in His own high place. God does not descend to earth on rescue missions. We have rescue workers for that.

Either God is benevolent and therefore helps people in need, or he is not and therefore he lets humans help themselves in a way that a lot of people will suffer.

You can't eat your cake and have it too.
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
I will remind that the whole "God has a reason for suffering that we don't know about" is literally the argument that's handled in the original thread and in this thread. That's literally what these two threads are directed at.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
No, God did not intend it although God knew since God is all-knowing.
It was either part of God's plan or not. Which is it?

Cancer is nobody's fault. It just happens. Everyone knows that except the atheists who scapegoat God.
I don't think that God caused cancer. I don't think that your God exists. I'm saying that if a God as good, wise and powerful as you claim your God is actually existed, then cancer wouldn't exist. This means that you're wrong... either about God existing or about God being good, powerful or wise.

... all in my opinion.
 

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
So God should have stopped--
I need you to pay attention, to read what is being written here. You are assuming a great deal of what many of us expect here, so let's try to clear this up. Speaking for myself, but aware that I am very likely not alone in this, no one expects your god to do anything. Bluntly, I don't think he can, much less wants to. I do not believe he has the authority, the power, or the ability to stop or solve many issues inherent in existence. To be frank, as well, I do not believe he causes them. I'm fairly certain I've said that before.

However, and here's the important part, the issue as relevant to this thread and pursuant to everything I and others have been trying to get through to you; Abrahamic claims are common that the god of Abraham is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent. With evidence, these claims cannot be truth. And to pre-emptively counter what I can safely assume is coming; I don't care what the books of bahai say. I don't care what the bahaullah says. If these are not claims that bahai make, then criticism of them should not bother you. Yet here you are, speaking in their defense all the same. So again, in short, the issue here is the claims being made about Abraham's god relevant to the Problem of Evil. Thus far, the evidence indicates that Abraham's god is either a great pretender, a petty being, or flat-out malicious and evil.

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

That means that God makes it possible for light and darkness, peace and evil.
No. That says, quite clearly, that your god makes evil. As a source, not an enabler (though that's not great either).

God could only fix it by (a) overriding the free will of humans or (b) taking away human free will
Of which there is scriptural claim that he has absolutely no qualms about doing so. And again I don't care what extraneous claim the bahaullah makes, his claim is the minority on this matter.

The 100 dollar question you cannot answer-
Shifting the goal-posts suddenly doesn't mean I cannot answer your dime-a-dozen question.

-is why God should fix injustice when humans can learn to be just.
Because according to claims that you are here defending, your god made those injustices. Your god [REDACTED] the bed, and expects us to clean it up because we've got the ability to do so. Skipping ahead to the metaphor; your god put poison ivy everywhere, and claims no fault or responsibility because we've got the shears and balm to fix his mistake. Yes, mistake. Your god should fix these injustices because according to you, he's God. This is his show. Right? Anything less and he's running a snuff-film horror show. Likely enjoying our suffering, I'd say.

They do not need God.
Let's keep that energy going forward, in regards to yahweh.

Why do my claims bother you if they are so false?
You assume they bother me, which I'd hazard to guess is a healthy (or unhealthy) dose of projection. And evidently, with how you're handling much of this, what we believe that you consider false does bother you. Your offense to our disdain of your petty god and disregard of your prophet have shown this fairly well. Frankly, your claims are neither here-nor-there, and really only serve to fill time. They are a whetstone to the sword of the mind; fodder to hone arguments, and perhaps learn forming tactics of Abrahamics (though in that endeavor it's proving to disappointingly be more of the same).

Then explain the metaphor and what you sought to convey by it.
Covered above, and settled well enough. According to your claims (made directly or by defense of the same claim made by others), your god made this mess. Your god is responsible. You playing the blissful enabler and treating us like petulant children does not change the evident fact that your god is a self-righteous charlatan at best, and if your claim is valid regarding him running the show, we are entirely justified in our outrage over his incompetency.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
But why didn't then make humans without the possibility, say, of genetic diseases? What is the reason of terrible genetic diseases? Why need children need to suffer for something that, with a better design, could have been avoided without affecting free will, and all that stuff?
You will have to ask God those questions because only God has the answers. There must have been a reason for these diseases or they would not exist. God does not allow things to exist with no reason. If it is not beneficial to humans in some way it would not exist because God only wants what benefits humans.

“Consider the mercy of God and His gifts. He enjoineth upon you that which shall profit you, though He Himself can well dispense with all creatures.” Gleanings, p. 140
Just sweeping that under the rug of omniscience, and that He knows better, does not explain anything. It is a trump card that theists use when they have no explanations.
No, it is not a Trump card. Theists cannot explain what we have no explanation for. However, we can reason that if God is omniscient God knows more than we can ever know. That is simple logic.

If there was no afterlife, it would be difficult for me to believe God is benevolent given these diseases and all the other suffering in the world, but knowing that this life is impermanent and very temporary, and that a much better world exists that is beyond this world that will be our permanent home, is what allows me to believe that God is benevolent. This world was never designed to be free of suffering but the next world will be free of suffering if we play our cards right in this world.

So the afterlife is the fly in the ointment for atheists who say God is not benevolent.
I could actually posit, with the same evidence, that God is evil, and the good we see in the world is because God is omniscient and always knows the ultimately worst course of action.
You could do that, if you were relying solely upon logic and never consulted scriptures, but you will never know what God is by relying upon logic because God transcends logic. Moreover you can make God into anything you want using logic. The only way to know what God is is from what the Messengers of God reveal about God, anything else is mere conjecture based upon limited and fallible human understanding.
Grow up and accept reality. Your God and Superman have exactly the same evidence of existing.

Ciao

- viole
You only wish the evidence was the same. ;)
 
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The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
So the afterlife is the fly in the ointment for atheists who say God is malevolent.
Except for, you know, the various and many scripture passages that talk about this one afterlife destination that's basically GOA's torture basement...

The only way to know what God is is from what the Messengers of God reveal about God, anything else is mere conjecture based upon limited and fallible human understanding.
Don't trust those men, only trust these men!
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
If a benevolent being doesn't prevent suffering, how can it be benevolent? Think of it this way: If you watched someone dying of smallpox but at the same you had the cure in your hands, completely free of charge to you, would you call yourself benevolent if you let that person suffer and die?
You cannot compare what a human would do for another human if they saw another human suffering to what God would do for a humans if God saw a human suffering because that is the fallacy of false equivalence.

False equivalence is a logical fallacy in which an equivalence is drawn between two subjects based on flawed or false reasoning. This fallacy is categorized as a fallacy of inconsistency.[1] A colloquial expression of false equivalency is "comparing apples and oranges".

Characteristics

This fallacy is committed when one shared trait between two subjects is assumed to show equivalence, especially in order of magnitude, when equivalence is not necessarily the logical result.[2] False equivalence is a common result when an anecdotal similarity is pointed out as equal, but the claim of equivalence doesn't bear scrutiny because the similarity is based on oversimplification or ignorance of additional factors. The pattern of the fallacy is often as such: "If A is the set of c and d, and B is the set of d and e, then since they both contain d, A and B are equal". d is not required to exist in both sets; only a passing similarity is required to cause this fallacy to be used.
False equivalence - Wikipedia

Please try to understand that because if you cannot understand that God cannot be expected to do what humans do you will never understand why God allows suffering.

Let's turn that around and ask:
-- Why would a benevolent God prevent suffering?
-- Why should a benevolent God prevent suffering?

Can you imagine that an all-knowing God knows something you do not know and that suffering serves a purpose, so that is why it exists? Even if the suffering you see seems to serve no purpose you cannot know if it is serving an ultimate purpose because you are not all-knowing and you cannot do not know the final outcome of that suffering.

As I just said in another post, If there was no afterlife, it would be difficult for me to believe God is benevolent given these diseases and all the other suffering in the world, but knowing that this life is impermanent and very temporary, and that a much better world exists that is beyond this world that will be our permanent home, is what allows me to believe that God is benevolent. This world was never designed to be free of suffering but the next world will be free of suffering if we play our cards right in this world.

So the afterlife is the fly in the ointment for atheists who say God is not benevolent.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Either God is benevolent and therefore helps people in need, or he is not and therefore he lets humans help themselves in a way that a lot of people will suffer.

You can't eat your cake and have it too.
Who are you to set the standards for what God should do? That is the 100 dollar question you cannot answer without admitting you are just a fallible human being who has a personal opinion. We all have those.

I can have my cake and eat it to and I eat it all day long because I know things about God and how and why God operates that you do not know. Thus you are flying blind with only your own ego to base your beliefs upon whereas I have the Word of God to base my beliefs upon. :)
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
You cannot compare what a human would do for another human if they saw another human suffering to what God would do for a humans if God saw a human suffering because that is the fallacy of false equivalence.

False equivalence is a logical fallacy in which an equivalence is drawn between two subjects based on flawed or false reasoning. This fallacy is categorized as a fallacy of inconsistency.[1] A colloquial expression of false equivalency is "comparing apples and oranges".

Characteristics

This fallacy is committed when one shared trait between two subjects is assumed to show equivalence, especially in order of magnitude, when equivalence is not necessarily the logical result.[2] False equivalence is a common result when an anecdotal similarity is pointed out as equal, but the claim of equivalence doesn't bear scrutiny because the similarity is based on oversimplification or ignorance of additional factors. The pattern of the fallacy is often as such: "If A is the set of c and d, and B is the set of d and e, then since they both contain d, A and B are equal". d is not required to exist in both sets; only a passing similarity is required to cause this fallacy to be used.
False equivalence - Wikipedia

Great. Now please show there is a false equivalence rather than merely claiming so.

Please try to understand that because if you cannot understand that God cannot be expected to do what humans do you will never understand why God allows suffering.

Let's turn that around and ask:
-- Why would a benevolent God prevent suffering?
-- Why should a benevolent God prevent suffering?

Can you imagine that an all-knowing God knows something you do not know and that suffering serves a purpose, so that is why it exists? Even if the suffering you see seems to serve no purpose you cannot know if it is serving an ultimate purpose because you are not all-knowing and you cannot do not know the final outcome of that suffering.

As I just said in another post, If there was no afterlife, it would be difficult for me to believe God is benevolent given these diseases and all the other suffering in the world, but knowing that this life is impermanent and very temporary, and that a much better world exists that is beyond this world that will be our permanent home, is what allows me to believe that God is benevolent. This world was never designed to be free of suffering but the next world will be free of suffering if we play our cards right in this world.

So the afterlife is the fly in the ointment for atheists who say God is not benevolent.

We have gone over this before: Omnipotence allows any state of affairs to be actualized. Omnipotence entails that whatever can be gained from suffering can also be gained through some other way.

Think of it this way: How do you get yourself a cake? You can bake one yourself by getting all of those ingredients together and then baking it. Or perhaps you could call someone to do that themselves and deliver one for you. However, if you were omnipotent you wouldn't need to go through any steps to get yourself a cake. You could get it right away, instantly, just as soon as you wanted. By claiming that God is omnipotent, this means he doesn't need to go through steps, like letting people die from smallpox, to achieve some given result he wants. That's what omnipotence entails.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
It was either part of God's plan or not. Which is it?
God does not have plans, only humans have plans. God already knows everything, past present and future, so why would God ever have to plan anything?

God has a purpose in mind for humans but that is different from a plan.
I don't think that God caused cancer. I don't think that your God exists. I'm saying that if a God as good, wise and powerful as you claim your God is actually existed, then cancer wouldn't exist. This means that you're wrong... either about God existing or about God being good, powerful or wise.

... all in my opinion.
How can you know that cancer would not exist if God as good, wise and powerful? Do you know more than God?
How can you know if cancer is not for the ultimate good of humans? All you have is the lens of your own understanding, you cannot see with God's Eyes so you don't see everything.

If God exists and there is cancer there has to be a reason that cancer exists. To say that means that God is malevolent is based upon a fallible human opinion of what God would/should do if He exists, and it is very short-sighted because it does not take into consideration the purpose of this earthly life and what happens after we die.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Who are you to set the standards for what God should do? That is the 100 dollar question you cannot answer without admitting you are just a fallible human being who has a personal opinion. We all have those.

I can have my cake and eat it to and I eat it all day long because I know things about God and how and why God operates that you do not know. Thus you are flying blind with only your own ego to base your beliefs upon whereas I have the Word of God to base my beliefs upon. :)

I am just the guy that is sticking to the definition of the terms.
You can't claim that God is omnibenevolent, therefore helping people in need to the best of his ability, while at the same time claim that God merely let humans fend for themselves. That's a clear contradiction.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
How can you know that cancer would not exist if God as good, wise and powerful? Do you know more than God?
How can you know if cancer is not for the ultimate good of humans? All you have is the lens of your own understanding, you cannot see with God's Eyes so you don't see everything.

If God exists and there is cancer there has to be a reason that cancer exists. To say that means that God is malevolent is based upon a fallible human opinion of what God would/should do if He exists, and it is very short-sighted because it does not take into consideration the purpose of this earthly life and what happens after we die.

Because a powerful, wise and good god would never inflict or allow suffering to exist, for there is no suffering that is necessary for an omni-powerful god to achieve his goals, and every stance of suffering would, therefore, be contradictory to his very existence, since he is also wise and good.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
How can you know that cancer would not exist if God as good, wise and powerful? Do you know more than God?
How can you know if cancer is not for the ultimate good of humans? All you have is the lens of your own understanding, you cannot see with God's Eyes so you don't see everything.

If God exists and there is cancer there has to be a reason that cancer exists. To say that means that God is malevolent is based upon a fallible human opinion of what God would/should do if He exists, and it is very short-sighted because it does not take into consideration the purpose of this earthly life and what happens after we die.
This gets back to the OP. If you're saying that there could be unseen factors that completely change the morality of God's actions in ways we don't understand, then you have no basis to say that God is good.

Every apparently evil act of God might be good and every apparently good act of God might be evil.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I need you to pay attention, to read what is being written here. You are assuming a great deal of what many of us expect here, so let's try to clear this up. Speaking for myself, but aware that I am very likely not alone in this, no one expects your god to do anything. Bluntly, I don't think he can, much less wants to. I do not believe he has the authority, the power, or the ability to stop or solve many issues inherent in existence. To be frank, as well, I do not believe he causes them. I'm fairly certain I've said that before.

However, and here's the important part, the issue as relevant to this thread and pursuant to everything I and others have been trying to get through to you; Abrahamic claims are common that the god of Abraham is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent. With evidence, these claims cannot be truth. And to pre-emptively counter what I can safely assume is coming; I don't care what the books of bahai say. I don't care what the bahaullah says. If these are not claims that bahai make, then criticism of them should not bother you. Yet here you are, speaking in their defense all the same. So again, in short, the issue here is the claims being made about Abraham's god relevant to the Problem of Evil. Thus far, the evidence indicates that Abraham's god is either a great pretender, a petty being, or flat-out malicious and evil.

There is no evidence that God is a great pretender, a petty being, or flat-out malicious and evil.
You tell me why you think there is evidence for all that and I will tell you what I don’t think that is evidence.
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

That means that God makes it possible for light and darkness, peace and evil.

No. That says, quite clearly, that your god makes evil. As a source, not an enabler (though that's not great either).
There are many different translations of that verse but I prefer the NIV.

NIV
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things.

That is only one verse from the entire Bible so if you try to use one verse to say God is evil is the fallacy of cherry-picking.

Moreover, even if God creates evil or disaster that does not mean that God is evil because there can be reasons God does this that lie beyond your understanding, and therein lies the problem with all people who say that if God existed He could not be benevolent. What they believe is limited to their own limited understanding and even if they do take into account what the Bible or any other scriptures say about God, they cherry-pick and/or twist the meanings of those scriptures. Moreover, they look ONLY at the suffering in the world, not at all the good things in the world, and they say God cannot be benevolent because if God was omnipotent and omniscient God could/would/should remove all the suffering, which is personal opinion that has no basis in reality.

In other words, what they are saying is that if God does not hop to and do what I expect Him to do then God is not benevolent. This is childish at best. It is like a little child saying if I don’t get my lollipop then mommy is bad. There is no way for me to break through this because the wall of ego prevents me from reasoning with people who think this way… These types of atheists think they know more than God would know if God existed which is the epitome of ego, not to mention that it is completely illogical, because were an omniscient God to exist that created humans God would know more than any human could ever know regarding what is best for the humans that He created. This is logic 101 stuff and you cannot get past it, unless you want to argue that God is not omniscient, in which case God would not know how to remove the suffering even if He has all power to do so.

You cannot make this work with logic no matter how hard you try.
God could only fix it by (a) overriding the free will of humans or (b) taking away human free will.”

Of which there is scriptural claim that he has absolutely no qualms about doing so. And again I don't care what extraneous claim the bahaullah makes, his claim is the minority on this matter.
An omnipotent God could and sometimes does override human free will, but that does not mean that He is required to do so.
The 100 dollar question you cannot answer-

Shifting the goal-posts suddenly doesn't mean I cannot answer your dime-a-dozen question.

-is why God should fix injustice when humans can learn to be just.

Because according to claims that you are here defending, your god made those injustices.
I never claimed that God made any injustices and the Bible does not say that nor do the Baha’i scriptures.
Your god [REDACTED] the bed, and expects us to clean it up because we've got the ability to do so. Skipping ahead to the metaphor; your god put poison ivy everywhere, and claims no fault or responsibility because we've got the shears and balm to fix his mistake. Yes, mistake. Your god should fix these injustices because according to you, he's God. This is his show. Right? Anything less and he's running a snuff-film horror show. Likely enjoying our suffering, I'd say.
You have that completely backwards. God created the world and it was good.

Genesis 1:31 New International Version
31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.


Then after that God was out of the game and humans messed up God’s perfect world. Now some humans want to blame God for messing up the perfect world and they expect God to clean up the mess they have created.
“Why do my claims bother you if they are so false?”

You assume they bother me, which I'd hazard to guess is a healthy (or unhealthy) dose of projection.

And evidently, with how you're handling much of this, what we believe that you consider false does bother you.
Lol, do you think that ANYTHING that you or any atheist says about God bothers me?

It is amusing but it does not bother me because I know it is utterly false since I know what is true.
Your offense to our disdain of your petty god and disregard of your prophet have shown this fairly well.
I do not take any offense. I just correct the illogic and falsities. There is always a glimmer of hope that maybe one person I post to will see the light and that is why I am here, because I care about people and their eternal destination.

“Wert thou to open the heart of a single soul by helping him to embrace the Cause of Him Whom God shall make manifest, thine inmost being would be filled with the inspirations of that august Name…….. For indeed if thou dost open the heart of a person for His sake, better will it be for thee than every virtuous deed; since deeds are secondary to faith in Him and certitude in His Reality. XVII, 15.” Selections From the Writings of the Báb, p. 133
“Then explain the metaphor and what you sought to convey by it.”

Covered above, and settled well enough. According to your claims (made directly or by defense of the same claim made by others), your god made this mess. Your god is responsible. You playing the blissful enabler and treating us like petulant children does not change the evident fact that your god is a self-righteous charlatan at best, and if your claim is valid regarding him running the show, we are entirely justified in our outrage over his incompetency.
No, that is a straw man. I never said that God made this mess. I said quite the opposite. God did not make this mess so God is not responsible to clean it up.

The second straw man you made is that God is ‘running the show.’ God is in no way running the show as He handed that job over to humans after He created the world.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Except for, you know, the various and many scripture passages that talk about this one afterlife destination that's basically GOA's torture basement...
There has been an update since the Bible was written and another update since the Qur'an was written. There is no afterlife 'destination' because Heaven and Hell are not geographical locations. Rather, Heaven is nearness to God and Hell is distance from God. Since you brought it up, you may as well know the Baha'i beliefs about Heaven and Hell. This short three minute video is very well done and worth the watch.

 

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
You tell me why you think there is evidence for all that and I will tell you what I don’t think that is evidence.
Thus far your "evidences" have been inconsequential opinions, beliefs, and rejections of the scriptures which stand as evidence against the claims of Abrahamists regarding the God of Abraham (GOA). Make no mistake, blazer, we're not here to convince you. You are not the arbiter here to whom we must prove this nature of god. Rather you, as a support agent of GOA and acting as defense of the claims to his omnipotence, omniscience, and omnibenevolence, are tasked with defending those claims. "Because he is god" is not a strong defense, and is less than convincing.

There are many different translations of that verse but I prefer the NIV.
They are all the same. Evil, calamity, disaster, sorrow; all of these things are not the product of a benevolent deity. Certainly not an omnibenevolent deity, which is one that has not a shred of malevolence to them.

That is only one verse from the entire Bible so if you try to use one verse to say God is evil is the fallacy of cherry-picking.
You love your accusations of fallacies, don't you? But then again, you would be the expert on cherry picking, wouldn't you? Yet no, blazer, that one verse alone is not the sole evidence that your god is evil. There is also the majority of the Old Testament that you thoroughly cherry pick, dismissing these actions as "not accurate" or whatever rot helps you sleep better.

Moreover, even if God creates evil or disaster that does not mean that God is evil
Good beings do not create evil. A child could understand this. A father that beats you, but then buys you ice cream, is not a kind and loving father, no matter the presence of a "good" action.

It is like a little child saying if I don’t get my lollipop then mommy is bad.
Good thing that's not what any of us are saying.

These types of atheists-
Again, I am not an Atheist.

I never claimed that God made any injustices-
I want you to go back and read exactly what I said, and then correct your objections accordingly.

and the Bible does not say that
Oh, the bible absolutely does. Isaiah 45:7, for one.

You have that completely backwards. God created the world and it was good.
Such is the claim. Just because the Gardener finds the poison ivy good does not mean it is.

No, that is a straw man. I never said that God made this mess. I said quite the opposite.
Loki's balls, that's not a bloody straw man. And what's more, you are the mother in aforementioned metaphor that blithely ignores the careless actions of the father (your god) and berate the child for finding the ivy offensive and harmful.

The second straw man you made
You seem to have an addiction. Seek help.

God is in no way running the show as He handed that job over to humans after He created the world.
A wonderful claim, and yet that's not the claim that we're discussing here, and to which you are zealously defending. If such is your stance, rather than the Topic, then what by Thor's beard are you doing here?

There has been an update since the Bible was written
And it's the vast minority, not exactly replacing those "previous versions" as they're still around. Marvelous for you, you don't have a Perdition; that doesn't change the claims and scriptural backing that do.
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Great. Now please show there is a false equivalence rather than merely claiming so.
I already explained that. You cannot compare what a human would do for another human if they saw another human suffering to what God would do for a humans if God saw a human suffering because that is the fallacy of false equivalence.
We have gone over this before: Omnipotence allows any state of affairs to be actualized. Omnipotence entails that whatever can be gained from suffering can also be gained through some other way.
Sorry but no. You are not omniscient so you cannot KNOW that.
Think of it this way: How do you get yourself a cake? You can bake one yourself by getting all of those ingredients together and then baking it. Or perhaps you could call someone to do that themselves and deliver one for you. However, if you were omnipotent you wouldn't need to go through any steps to get yourself a cake. You could get it right away, instantly, just as soon as you wanted. By claiming that God is omnipotent, this means he doesn't need to go through steps, like letting people die from smallpox, to achieve some given result he wants. That's what omnipotence entails.
We have already covered this ground. It does not MATTER if God is omnipotent so God could allegedly bypass suffering to get to the goal because God is omniscient and thus God knows that suffering was the best way of all the available options to achieve the intended goal.

It does not MATTER what God needs to go through, it only matters what God chooses to God through since an omnipotent God only does what He chooses to do, period. What about that do you not understand ?

“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 209

Now, whenever you say that "God could have done it differently" you are against wall because you are not omniscient so you cannot possibly ever know more than God about how it should have been done.

You cannot just say God is omnipotent and ignore that God is also omniscient because God is both, and as soon as you invoke omniscience every atheist argument regarding what God could/should have done differently falls flat on its face.

In short, no human can know more than God because no human is more than all-knowing since that is logically impossible. That means that God knew all the options that were available to Him in order to achieve His goals and that means that whatever God chose to do was the best way to achieve the goals. You cannot know the best way because you are not all-knowing.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I am just the guy that is sticking to the definition of the terms.
You can't claim that God is omnibenevolent, therefore helping people in need to the best of his ability, while at the same time claim that God merely let humans fend for themselves. That's a clear contradiction.
God is helping people in need to in the best of all possible ways. It is not all about ability, it is about the best way to help people in need. You cannot know the best way because you are not all-knowing.
 
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