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What's Your Reason for Believing God Exists?

M

Magical Wand

Active Member
sun rise said:
I started with the conviction that there was something more than mere physical existence. This meant that there was meaning and purpose to life and that I should seek to align myself with that meaning and act in a way to further that purpose.
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I'm glad you replied. :)

So, how did you arrive at that conviction?

I don't see how there being more than physical existence automatically "means" there is meaning and purpose to life, though. I mean, I can conceive of a world in which there are indifferent physical entities who may occasionally interact with the physical world, but may not be interested in humans.

In addition, even if they are interested in humans, that doesn't mean they provide purpose and meaning to our lives. So, existing apart from the physical world may be a necessary condition for meaning and purpose, but it is not at all clear it is sufficient.
 
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Spirit of Light

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
Φᅠᅠ said:
I wonder what you think about the alternative to coming from nothing (and being created by a non-material being), namely, the idea that the universe has always existed in the past. What do you think about this possibility? :)
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My personal belief is that God created the universe, but it might be a lot older that humans think it is.
 
M

Magical Wand

Active Member
Conscious thoughts said:
My personal belief is that God created the universe, but it might be a lot older that humans think it is.
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Sure, it is your belief. But you suggested one reason for believing in God is that something can't come from nothing. But I just presented another possibility that doesn't require the universe to come from nothing and yet not be created by a conscious being. So, does that mean you have no more reason to believe in God? I doubt it.
 
Spirit of Light

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
Φᅠᅠ said:
Sure, it is your belief. But you suggested one reason for believing in God is that something can't come from nothing. But I just presented another possibility that doesn't require the universe to come from nothing and yet not be created by a conscious being. So, does that mean you have no more reason to believe in God? I doubt it.
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In my personal journey through spiritual life i found many reason why I believe in God, I see evidence (to me) every day in my life. But those evidence would not mean anything to others, since it is experienced on a personal level as a sufi.

Nor can i give physical "evidence" that non believers would accept as proof.
It all happen on a personal level for those who practice a path within their own being, to realize God from within.
 
C

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
Jimmy said:
Take away all the ‘rules’ and everyone knows God is infinity. Space that is. Everyone one knows space is infinite. Everyone knows that it’s bugged out awesome.
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Scientists say that the big bang was 13.8 billion years ago (based on Friedman's Equation with comoving observers). Space is finite, expanding, and the expansion is accelerating.
 
C

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
KAT-KAT said:
Well, my relating to Shiva could be partly because I've chosen Left Hand Path, a field which may have slightly different ideas on Satan and demons, although I don't mess with Satan and demons because it'd feel like I was subscribing to an Abrahamic mindset to do so. I haven't experienced any Satan or demons yet. They're probably off tormenting the righteous, and not a doomed, hopeless freethinker like me.
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Shh....you know too much.
 
PureX

PureX

Veteran Member
Φᅠᅠ said:
So, it is a Pascal's Wager kind of thing? What kind of benefits you're referring to? :)
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It has nothing to do with Pascal's wager. It has to do with the immediate possibilities of trusting in an idea. For example, every day you climb into an automobile you are trusting in the idea that everyone else on the road will follow the traffic laws, and enable you to arrive at your destination safely. You don't actually know this will happen, but you trust that it will because you like the benefits of using auto-transportation. This is an act of faith, on your part, based on the possibility and the reward. And we humans engage in these acts of faith all the time.

Many humans choose to trust in the idea of a benevolent God even though they can't know this to be so because they want the benefits that come from it. Benefits like the sense of peace, gratitude, and positive purpose that comes from living with such an idea. And keep in mind that none of us knows that this is NOT the case. So that trust is being placed in a very real possibility. Not some impossible fantasy.
 
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viole

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Clara Tea said:
Scientists say that the big bang was 13.8 billion years ago (based on Friedman's Equation with comoving observers). Space is finite, expanding, and the expansion is accelerating.
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Space could be infinite. Actually, it appears to be infinite. What stays finite is the observable Universe.

Ciao

- viole
 
Mock Turtle

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
PureX said:
It has nothing to do with Pascal's wager. It has to do with the immediate possibilities of trusting in an idea. For example, every day you climb into an automobile you are trusting in the idea that everyone else on the road will follow the traffic laws, and enable you to arrive at your destination safely. You don't actually know this will happen, but you trust that it will because you like the benefits of using auto-transportation. This is an act of faith, on your part, based on the possibility and the reward. And we humans engage in these acts of faith all the time.

Many humans choose to trust in the idea of a benevolent God even though they can't know this to be so because they want the benefits that come from it. Benefits like the sense of peace, gratitude, and positive purpose that comes from living with such an idea. And keep in mind that none of us knows that this is NOT the case. So that trust is being placed in a very real possibility. Not some some impossible fantasy.
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You seem to have easily slid from the trust we often place in that which we know (or hope to be the case) as to life in general and how humans behave, to faith, which is entirely different - something we often don't know anything about.
 
PureX

PureX

Veteran Member
Mock Turtle said:
You seem to have easily slid from the trust we often place in that which we know (or hope to be the case) as to life in general and how humans behave, to faith, which is entirely different - something we often don't know anything about.
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Trust in what we hope to be so IS FAITH. If we really knew something to be so, we wouldn't need to trust that it is so. We wouldn't need faith. The problem is that our "knowledge" is not really knowledge. It's presumption based on our limited experiences, and on our reasoned assessment of probability. Neither of which can provide certainty. So the 'difference' that you're trying to point out here is a difference of relative surety. And relative surety is very subjective.

If I ignore all the things I don't know and focus only on the things I think I do know, I will be able to move through life with relative surety; right up until the unknown/unknowable happens, and kills me. My surety will have been an illusion that worked well for me until it didn't. Lots of people live like this, while many others understand that this surety is an illusion. They understand that we can drive to the grocery store 500 times without a problem, and be killed on the 501st. One man says, "it's 500 to 1 odds, I'll take it!" While another man says, "it's 50/50 each trip, and that's scary!". And this tends to diminish their 'surety' in life. It also tends to diminish their faith in their own ability to reason probability every time someone dies on the way to the grocery store. And for all those people, the possibility of a benevolent overseer becomes a very useful concept. They can regain some of that trust, and some sense of surety, by placing it in this ideal of the omnipotent benevolent overseer. You may not feel any need for such an ideal because you retain your surety in your own ability to reason probability. But on that 501st trip to the grocery store, your surety will not change the "improbable" unfortunate result.

We're really all operating on faith. It's just a question of what we are placing that faith in, and how it is helping us negotiate the many unknowns of life as a human.
 
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sun rise

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Φᅠᅠ said:
So, how did you arrive at that conviction?
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There are some critical bits of information that I can't discuss due to an RF rule. So instead I'll quote a song I quoted in another thread recently which is from "The New Troubadors" In My Name Lyrics where I've highlighted what happened:

CHANGE CAN COME (Words and Music by Lark Batteau)

Change can come in the twinkling of an eye,
In the ripple upon a lake.
Change can come in the color of a flower,
In the sparkle of morning dew,
When the Light catches you.
In that tiny moment, you are transformed.

And the radiance of Christ
Shines forth in reply
From within, and has made itself known,
And from the two is born
A new world.
...

Φᅠᅠ said:
I don't see how there being more than physical existence automatically "means" there is meaning and purpose to life, though. I mean, I can conceive of a world in which there are indifferent physical entities who may occasionally interact with the physical world, but may not be interested in humans.
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Sure, that's true. It's possible to conceive almost anything. Being able to conceive something naturally does not mean it's real.

Φᅠᅠ said:
In addition, even if they are interested in humans, that doesn't mean they provide purpose and meaning to our lives. So, existing apart from the physical world may be a necessary condition for meaning and purpose, but it is not at all clear it is sufficient.
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As you state it, it's not sufficient as you noted. But that's not my belief which is fundamentally non-dual, what in the East is called Advaita.

From the heart of me that is the Heart of God,
Love streams forth to all my worlds,
And I am One.

(and)

God alone is real and the goal of life is to be united with Him through love.
 
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