Because if it is to save an innocent life it would be the benevolent thing to do.
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Special Pleading and the PoE (Part 2)
- Thread starter Meow Mix
- Start date
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
God did not approve any plan, because God has no plans. Only humans have plans. God does not have to plan anything because God knows everything all at once.
The way my argument works is that since God is omniscient and humans are not, God knows more than any human, so God knows the best course of action under any circumstance. Why did you deflect from that? Can’t you admit God knows more than you do?
Again you completely ignored what I said and deflected.
You are belittling the grace and mercy and bounty of God and what He does for us when He sends Messengers as if it is nothing, because like a small child, you want something else.
You say that because you are not getting what you want, like a small child who did not get a bike from daddy for Christmas. I am sorry you cannot see that.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
It is just too bad that God did not create the world they way you wanted Him to but you cannot know MORE than an omniscient God about how to create a world because you are not omniscient, and because you are not omniscient you cannot know the REASONS for everything God created and neither do I because I am not omniscient.
Wow, so now God just made an arbitrary creation, even though it knew what would happen. So it just didn't care what would happen, and surprised itself as it created without a plan.
This is fascinating.
Since no God is known to exist, and with me as an inferior being, I don't have adequate knowledge to say it does. What I can say is that our world functions as if no God exists.
My bad for not being impressed by God's Messengers as little children die of cancer. What was I thinking?
I say God isn't benevolent because it would rather send Messengers than cure suffering children.
And I get my new $10K racing bikes from insurance settlements when I get hit by cars (this is actually true), so maybe God is benevolent to me, an atheist.
No, God is still a jerk.
So cancer was part of God's design.
God intended for people to get cancer, then.
So then cancer is God's fault.
I agree, God should have created a world that isn't so brutal and cruel to some people. Do you agree? Wouldn't you prefer little children not dying?
No, Tb said god had no plan, so cancer was, well it wasn't a mistake since God doesn't make mistakes, but God kew it was creating a world with cancer, and that must be good since God is benevolent. And that makes sense since God just isn't that into us.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I never said or even implied that humans are trash. How humans interpret what they experience in life and what they see in the world varies widely so that cannot be used to determine whether God is benevolent. All you can have is a personal opinion.
Because that is what Baha’u’llah enjoined us to do.
The Baha’i teachings are not irrational and they are not dogma. No, not at all. I used my free will to choose to believe in Baha’u’llah.
I do not have to work on anything. All I have to do is read what Baha’u’llah wrote. He knows more than me because He got messages from the all-knowing God and I didn’t.
I told you there is no such test because if there was everyone would know who Baha’u’llah was. If there was God would not be able to separate the sheep from the goats.
Not even close. What I believe comes from God through Baha’u’llah, what you believe comes from your own ego.
Some of us honestly do know.
Didn’t you see the “I believe” in there? I do not expect you to believe what I believe. Can’t you separate you from me?
I have had over 50 years to think and do research. If I don’t know my beliefs are true after all that time I’d have to be pretty slow.
That is the fallacy of hasty generalization and a personal opinion. My beliefs are rooted in logic. I have no mushy-gushy feelings towards God, I only defend God because I like logic and I cannot stand to see illogic.
Good Lord Almighty! Do you think I get an emotional reward from spending all my time on forums talking to atheists? What behaviors? I do engage in any religious behaviors.
I do not care what other religious people do because I am not them.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, God did not intend it although God knew since God is all-knowing.
Cancer is nobody's fault. It just happens. Everyone knows that except the atheists who scapegoat God.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
God is malevolent because He won’t do everything you want Him to. That is what it amounts to. How childish is that?
So if God does not descend to earth on rescue missions, that means God does not care. How utterly illogical. This thread just keeps getting worse and worse.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Maybe God does save some lives. How do you know He doesn't? Six times hit by a car on a bicycle and you're still here.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
God sends Messengers because He does care about us. That's the only reason.
God is irrelevant to atheists because they don't get what they want and that don't like what God offers them.
They think that it is God's job to rescue them from pain and suffering but that is a misconception, and unless that is cleared up there is no hope that you will see the light.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
God knows everything so God knew what would happen and He cared.
It is God's job to send Messengers because only God can do that job.
It is not God's job to cure suffering children, that is the job for doctors. Even children know it's not God's job to cure them.
I got 100K from an insurance settlement when I was hit by a car and I bought a vacation house. Well, I have to refi my house to buy the new house because it was 165K. Got that on a foreclosure in 2010 and it is worth about 500K now. God did not do anything, I did it all by myself, wheeling and dealing. Now I own three houses in full.
I have three bikes but they are nothing fancy. When I worked in the office I rode my bike to work 24 miles a day, rain or shine. It is a miracle I only got hit by a car once. It is an miracle I was not killed because the driver was going 55 MPH.
Maybe God is keeping us around for a reason.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I agree that the suffering should be more evenly distributed. It does not seem fair that some people suffer so much more than others and that is what bothers me most. I have suffered for most of my life and only recently have I had any reprieve. You can see how old I am you know how long that is.
Little children that die are in God's hands and they were released from this dark and narrow place.
God is like a kind gardener who sometimes transfers children from earth to heaven.
From the death of that beloved youth due to his separation from you the utmost sorrow and grief has been occasioned, for he flew away in the flower of his age and the bloom of his youth, to the heavenly nest.
‘Abdu’l-Bahá, "Bahá’í World Faith (‘Abdu’l-Bahá section)", 83.1
But as he has been freed from this sorrow-stricken shelter and has turned his face toward the everlasting nest of the Kingdom and has been delivered from a dark and narrow world and has hastened to the sanctified realm of Light, therein lies the consolation of our hearts.
‘Abdu’l-Bahá, "Bahá’í World Faith (‘Abdu’l-Bahá section)", 83.2
The inscrutable divine wisdom underlies such heart-rending occurrences. It is as if a kind gardener transfers a fresh and tender shrub from a narrow place to a vast region. This transference is not the cause of the withering, the waning or the destruction of that shrub, nay rather it makes it grow and thrive, acquire freshness and delicacy and attain verdure and fruition. This hidden secret is well-known to the gardener, while those souls who are unaware of this bounty suppose that the gardener in his anger and wrath has uprooted the shrub. But to those who are aware this concealed fact is manifest and this predestined decree considered a favor. Do not feel grieved and disconsolate therefore at the ascension of that bird of faithfulness, nay under all circumstances pray and beg for that youth forgiveness and elevation of station.
‘Abdu’l-Bahá, "Bahá’í World Faith (‘Abdu’l-Bahá section)", 83.3
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Right, because God is not responsible for them. These are not Acts of God. Humans created climate change by their activities on earth and humans are responsible to clean up their own messes.
Oh I almost forgot, “God is omnipotent so God can do anything” which translates to “God is omnipotent t so God should do everything I want Him to do.”
I never said that humans are responsible for what they are born with or diseases they acquire later in life.
I said that because that is what they are. You cannot give me one good reason why God should be responsible except “God is omnipotent so God can do anything” which is not a reason why God should do jack squat. Get a dictionary. Ability does not imply responsibility.
Everyone but a few atheists (not all atheists) KNOWS that humans are responsible for human problems. These atheists should be embarrassed but they’re not.
I never said humans are responsible for diseases contracted, I only ever said that God is not responsible for playing doctor.
Explain why God should address drought and famine. You cannot give me one good reason why God should be responsible except “God is omnipotent so God can do anything” which is not a reason why God should do jack squat. Get a dictionary. Ability does not imply responsibility.
I never said that humans are responsible if that fall victim to a drought or famine, I only ever said that God is not responsible to address these problems. These are human problems and humans are responsible to fix them and they can fix them.
There is nothing that God is responsible to fix, as humans are responsible to fix it since they caused it by their actions on earth.
You are not getting what you want so you curse God. Grow up. God should do everything so humans won’t have to do anything just because “God is omnipotent.”
God cannot fix injustice, humans have to fix it because they are the source of it. All mature adults know that. Grow up.
It is crystal clear what you want and expect from God because it is written all throughout your posts. You God want to do everything and if He doesn’t you say He is not benevolent and throw a hissy fit like a small child.
I never compared vast and lingering suffering to ice cream. I said that whiny atheists who expect God to address the suffering are like children who want a different flavor of ice cream.
There is nothing more childish than an atheist who expects God to do everything humans are responsible for, and nothing more disgusting.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Humans can fix injustices and environmental harms and they are 100% responsible to fix them since they created them.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
So God is a man? I guess you got convinced of that by reading the Bible.
The Kilted Heathen
Crow FreyjasmaðR
What utter hogwash... So tell us then, what, exactly, does your god do? Climate change did not cause the tsunami, nor Katrina, nor Mount St. Helens. Tornadoes are as common to the Midwest as they come. You cannot rationally take only the good and completely ignore the bad that your god supposedly does. (Isaiah 45:7)
Oh, so we're repeating ourselves now? Okay.
Plain as day.
Way to not read everything, blazer. But I'm beginning to expect that. No, I don't even curse your god. He's not worth that much effort. You also assume much about what I want, and my degree of comfort. You're trying desperately to make this about us, when really it's about your claims.
Then your god is not all-powerful.
For as much as you like to sling fallacies around like so much confetti, very often you have engaged in this. Ad hominem. Act your age.
I would have thought it clear, but it's more clear that you're not actually reading what we write. I want nothing from your god, and expect nothing. Your claims, on the other hand...
Yes you did. And I'm not an atheist. After all this time, get it right.
Do you understand what a metaphor is? I would assume so, given that all your prophets speak in them.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
So God should have stopped the tsunami, and Katrina, and Mount St. Helens just because humans did not cause them? Why should God intervene in the natural world?
What does God do? God rules and maintains the universe of which earth is only a small part.
“Baha’is believe in an almighty creator who has fashioned the universe and has made man in his own image; they believe in a non-created cause of all existence, in a single God. The word ‘God’ is a symbol for that transcendent reality by which all existence is ruled and maintained. What we call God is not, as the critics of the concept of God believe, a product of human imagination, a creation of the mind, a fanciful invention which has no reality, or a reflection of particular social and economic circumstances.”
(Udo Schafer, the light that shineth in the darkness, p. 19)
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
That means that God makes it possible for light and darkness, peace and evil.
God could only fix it by (a) overriding the free will of humans or (b) taking away human free will
The 100 dollar question you cannot answer is why God should fix injustice when humans can learn to be just. They do not need God.
Why do my claims bother you if they are so false? I am not bothered by what others believe that I consider false.
Then explain the metaphor and what you sought to convey by it.