syo
Well-Known Member
Th gods choose their avatars, so yes.
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Is God omnipotent?
- Thread starter an anarchist
- Start date
Hermit Philosopher
Selflessly here for you
I think that you are not my problem and that I shall let you get on with doing you.
Humbly
Hermit
PureX
Veteran Member
How does omnipotence necessitate perfection, is what I'm asking. Everyone is complaining that God must not be omnipotent because creation is 'imperfect' (according to our selfish notions about what perfection should look like). But why are we assuming that omniscience would produce perfection? And why are we assuming that our selfish notion of perfection IS perfection?
So you are saying the skilled engineer didn't want to produce a good product when a mediocre one is much easier?
PureX
Veteran Member
I'm saying "skills" don't necessitate "good results". And we wouldn't know the difference, anyway, as we can only presume that the difference is in how well the result serves us.
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
Not if he chose the best of all possible solutions. And that's the rub. We can't know what we can't know. Which would you prefer? A God who created robots who will never do anything wrong, or free people who can choose, for example? I can't prove that this is the best of all possible worlds, but I can believe that God is love and chose what is best for everyone.
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
What is evil? Why would it even be wrong for God to create most people to suffer? Those concepts only make sense if there's some standard for what good and evil is and an ultimate being capable for telling us what it is.
If this world is created by chance and evolution, good is what survives, nothing else.
But the very fact that there is what we call goodness in this world points to a good creator, IMO.
Yes, thats what I said
an anarchist
Your local anarchist.
I’m struggling to reconcile omniscience, omnipotence, and benevolence. I suppose I was just trying to play devils advocate in arguing against His benevolence, using examples I’ve seen used. It is easier for me to accept that He is not omnipotent before I would accept He is not benevolent.
I think God has the power to pretty much do all, such as create the universe. But I don’t think He has the power to vanquish evil without us.
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
If he did he would not be God.
AlexanderG
Active Member
Please understand that my comment was an internal critique of your worldview. I was saying that even if your god exists and authored/inspired the Bible, your god could be lying about the things he says he values. Your god could be tricking you in order to deceptively create a world with the maximum possible gratuitous suffering, which according to even Christians would not be loving, right?.
What I can personally account for, justify, or express morally has nothing to do with my point. This was about Christian apologetics failing to support your claims any more than any other arbitrary claim. Your presupp script has nothing to grasp onto here, and you've merely used it to entirely avoid addressing my point. The rest of us can very plainly see this.
God has demonstrated his benevolence since the beginning, so to me there was never a doubt about his love and generosity for his intelligent creation.
It surprises me to hear you say that, because evil was never supposed to be part of the human experience. God originally went to the trouble of keeping that knowledge to himself. As I have mentioned, God’s creation naturally exhibits equal opposites, but the opposite of good was never supposed to trouble us.....however, free will meant that we always had a choice. Partaking of the fruit of “the tree of the knowledge of good and evil” (which God said was his personal property) meant death.
The two trees in the garden therefore, determined the future of all humans, (the TKGE and the ToL) they were put before them because obeying God had to be their choice.....a choice that remained throughout human history. It was simple...obey God and keep living...or disobey him and die.
God told his people....”I take the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you today that I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the curse; and you must choose life so that you may live, you and your descendants, 20 by loving Jehovah your God, by listening to his voice, and by sticking to him, for he is your life and by him you will endure a long time in the land...”
It was always a choice, but with incentive to obey, and a large disincentive to disobey. God is a rewarded of good conduct. Just as we praise and often reward our own children when they obey us.
Hebrews 11:6...
“Moreover, without faith it is impossible to please God well, for whoever approaches God must believe that he is and that he becomes the rewarder of those earnestly seeking him.”
If it had just been the humans who disobeyed God, the solution would have been more simple, implement the penalty and start again......but they were not the only rebels, nor were they the first. The devil never challenged Gd’s power....he challenged his sovereignty....his right to set limits for human freedom....to make rules of conduct.
In the big scheme of things, humans by themselves couldn’t do too much damage, but influenced by superhuman intelligences behind the scenes, the potential for disaster was increased beyond imagination. Not just humans being used to perform evil for the devil’s agenda to become a “god” to these lesser beings, but humans under the demonic influence have negatively impacted in human relationships down through time, resulting in horrendous wars and the development of heinous weapons.....and their activities have actually brought all life on this planet to the brink of extinction. The Bible however, says that God will never allow the devil to go that far. (Revelation 11:18)
We are not programmed to cope with evil....like death, it was not supposed to be part of our lives. So once the knowledge of evil was ‘out of its box’, evil acts soon followed due to the sinful nature that was spread to all humans descended from Adam. (Romans 5:12)
Add free will to that mix and this called for a long range plan to eradicate evil, not only from the world, but from heaven itself and from our sinful selves. Jesus’ death accomplished our rescue, but the evil perpetrators of this world (both demonic and their human minions) will soon experience the anger of the God whom they betrayed. Complete destruction (gehenna) awaits them according to the scriptures. (Matthew 10:28)
an anarchist
Your local anarchist.
One thing... would it be possible the opposite is true? We can reach extinction, in similar fashion to Noah’s flood, I think this is more likely. The verse you sourced could be viewed with this mindset I think those who destroy the earth.
Is freewill factored in how the end will come to pass?
Apathy, evil, or impotence (aka lack of omnipotence) might be the reason that the world has horrible things (wars, pain, disease).
74x12
Well-Known Member
God is certainly omnipotent but God wants us to fight the evil. By doing so we become what we were born to be. Not a weak God and doesn't like weakness. Pities it but prefers us to be strong in good. This is why he allows evil to reign. If people believe Jesus is God manifest then that should give them the perfect image of what God is like. Jesus fought evil to the last breath and died to fight evil. So that's what God really wants us to do too.
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
Ok, so God could be tricking people by dying for them?
I guess if you want to believe he's Loki that's your business. I'm not seeing it.
Do you think God ever wanted his creation to become extinct? We were plunged in to this situation through no fault on our part.....would God punish us eternally for the sins committed in a short lifetime? That would violate his perfect justice. He has already demonstrated that he does not want any to be destroyed, but rather that all would repent and turn to serving his interests on this earth instead of satan's or our own. (2 Peter 3:9)
There is a lot in the account about the situation in Noah's day that we need to recognize, because Jesus used it as an example of what would occur again before the end of the present system takes place. You are right actually, because God will destroy those who are destroying the earth. Another scenario similar to the flood was to take place with a similar result...only not by water this time......those alive at the time when the judgment comes will be separated into only two camps....."sheep or goats". The obedient "sheep" are invited to enjoy continuing life, (like Noah) but the disobedient "goats" are left to experience the results of their mocking and ridicule, just like the ones who perished in the flood. God always issues warnings before he does anything.....the city of Nineveh is a prime example. Jonah's warning struck a chord with the people and they all repented....demonstrating that it can happen if people will only listen. God wants to forgive....all he needs is repentance and a genuine desire not to repeat past mistakes. Its not too much to ask surely?
If we take a worst case scenario from the Bible...Manasseh. It was said that he committed evil more than any other ruler in Israel.....he was 12 years old when he ascended the throne as the 14th king of Judah after David and ruled for 55 years (716-662 B.C.E.) in Jerusalem. (2 Kings 21:1) He did what was bad in Jehovah’s eyes, rebuilding the high places his father had destroyed, setting up altars to Baal, worshiping “all the army of the heavens,” and building false religious altars in two temple courtyards. He made his sons pass through the fire, practiced magic, employed divination, and promoted spiritistic practices. Manasseh also put the graven image of the sacred pole he had made into the house of Jehovah. He seduced Judah and Jerusalem “to do worse than the nations that Jehovah had annihilated from before the sons of Israel.” (2 Kings 21:2-9) Though Jehovah sent prophets, these were not heeded. Manasseh was also guilty of shedding innocent blood in great quantity (2 Kings 21:10-16), which, according to the literature of the Jewish rabbis, included that of Isaiah, who they say was sawed apart at Manasseh’s command.
Manasseh was punished for paying no attention to Jehovah’s message, the king of Assyria taking him captive to Babylon, one of the Assyrian monarch’s royal cities. While in captivity, Manasseh repented, humbled himself, and prayed to Jehovah. God heard his request for favor and restored him to the kingship in Jerusalem. (2 Chronicles 33:12-13) Manasseh thereafter “built an outer wall for the City of David,” put military chiefs in Judah’s fortified cities, and removed the foreign gods and the idol image from Jehovah’s house, as well as the altars he had built “in the mountain of the house of Jehovah and in Jerusalem.” Manasseh prepared the altar of Jehovah and began to sacrifice upon it, encouraging others also to serve Jehovah.....so what is this telling us about God?
Did Manasseh truly repent? As God can read hearts, he must have because he completely turned from his bad ways and tried to undo the damage he had done. Repentance has to be backed up by actions not crocodile tears.
If God could forgive Manasseh, why would he not try to forgive everyone? All they would have to do is turn around and serve the true God, then no past sin (no matter how bad) would be held against them.....not difficult at all unless someone is too proud to do it....or too stubborn to see the error of their ways. Why would God want people who don't want him in their lives? They will pass off the earthly scene never to be seen again....or even be remembered.
There is an "end" coming as Jesus foretold, and his true disciples have been preaching about it all through these "last days" (Matthew 24:14)......so all have the opportunity well in advance to show God that they are willing to serve his interests here on earth. Its not too much to ask is it? But I guess many will go down shaking their fist at God as if he owes them more than what he gave them....?
an anarchist
Your local anarchist.
I think He would never want that, but God does have it in Him to regret his actions. One of the parts of the Bible that makes me sad when I read it is King Saul’s story. At the end, when he refuses to obey God completely, the Bible records that God regretted that He anointed him king and it troubled Him. In the same way He took His grace from Saul, with regret, I believe He could do to the human race.
Regret is exactly what he felt.....his love and generosity were thrown back in his face by those he chose to bring his Messiah into the world....it was such a precious privilege but they devalued it, silenced his prophets who were sent to correct them, and eventually killed the one sent to save them......
Those were the ones who promised to serve and obey him, but then did exactly the opposite....why wouldn't he feel regret....the same kind of regret that he felt about the people that Noah tried to warn. They thought about only evil all the time....they really left him no choice...but it was more serious than that, because of the conduct of the wicked angels who followed satan into rebellion. They were the ones responsible for all the violence and immorality on the earth back then. These rebel angels materialized to enjoy the pleasures of the flesh and actually produced freakish offspring called the Nephilim (which literally means "those who cause others to fall down") Violent and licentious, their conduct had ruined the whole world of that time....to the point that even their victims were wicked as well.
In order to save what he had created, Jehovah flooded the world so that all the wicked would perish (including those spawned by the demon angels and also so that their fathers would have nowhere to go. There were to be no physical anchors to keep them in the world, so they dematerialized and returned to the spirit realm, where God put them under restraint....there is no record of them ever materializing again....even though faithful angels continued to do so, to bring messages to God's human servants on earth.
Yes, Saul was a good example of what happens when you do the wrong thing and then compound it by doing even worse.....I am sure God regrets what has happened to the human race under the devil's influence, but at the end of the day...its all about our choices and the reasons why we make them....God knows both, which means that no innocent person will lose their lives...and no one can make excuses to the one who is appointed as judge.
an anarchist
Your local anarchist.
I’ll have to check the Bible to see if there is any reference to this, but the book of Enoch says the following about the fallen angels: their children, the Nephilim, died in the deluge. God let the souls of 10% of them remain on earth. They are demons, allowed on this earth whose purpose is to tempt mankind.
I consider Enoch canon, but I know that’s a minority opinion.
idk if that’s relevant but yea
just I think that the Nephilim are still corrupting the present world