The Trouble with Atheism.....

Hockeycowboy · Jul 20, 2021

SkepticThinker said:
How do we know the Bible is right about this?

From what I’ve been taught, and the interpretation of the Bible that I‘ve come to accept, much of what I see in this world -- from the political corruption and economic instabilities to the inequalities in the world where some have much, & others too little — but mostly the religious confusion.....ESPECIALLY the religious confusion concerning Christianity! I find it intriguing the imbalance existing regarding schisms in major religions! In Judaism, there’s about 50 to 60 different sects; in Islam, about 60 to 70. But within Christendom, there are over 30,000! It’s almost as though an enemy has attacked it (to spread confusion), more than any of the others!

Just think of this one aspect (there are many others): the Bible is full of verses speaking about the Earth, and man’s future on it wherein peace will prevail; it says almost nothing - almost - about some humans living there.
But what do you hear about, in religious conversions? “I’m going to Heaven,” or similar! That’s not the Bible’s hope for mankind! It’s all twisted.

All of this is evidence, to me & many others, that the Scriptures are right on, about an enemy challenging Jehovah God!

(I hope you can follow what I’m trying to say here... if not, it’s my fault; sometimes I have a hard time writing my thoughts down. Sorry.)

Have a good evening.

SkepticThinker · Jul 21, 2021

Hockeycowboy said:
From what I’ve been taught, and the interpretation of the Bible that I‘ve come to accept, much of what I see in this world -- from the political corruption and economic instabilities to the inequalities in the world where some have much, & others too little — but mostly the religious confusion.....ESPECIALLY the religious confusion concerning Christianity! I find it intriguing the imbalance existing regarding schisms in major religions! In Judaism, there’s about 50 to 60 different sects; in Islam, about 60 to 70. But within Christendom, there are over 30,000! It’s almost as though an enemy has attacked it (to spread confusion), more than any of the others!

Just think of this one aspect (there are many others): the Bible is full of verses speaking about the Earth, and man’s future on it wherein peace will prevail; it says almost nothing - almost - about some humans living there.
But what do you hear about, in religious conversions? “I’m going to Heaven,” or similar! That’s not the Bible’s hope for mankind! It’s all twisted.

All of this is evidence, to me & many others, that the Scriptures are right on, about an enemy challenging Jehovah God!

(I hope you can follow what I’m trying to say here... if not, it’s my fault; sometimes I have a hard time writing my thoughts down. Sorry.)

Have a good evening.

I think you've made my point for me in your very first paragraph.

Hockeycowboy · Jul 21, 2021

SkepticThinker said:
I think you've made my point for me in your very first paragraph.

How is that? What is your point?
You have to consider the entire post.

Don’t quote-mine me.

gnostic · Jul 21, 2021

Hockeycowboy said:
From what I’ve been taught, and the interpretation of the Bible that I‘ve come to accept, much of what I see in this world -- from the political corruption and economic instabilities to the inequalities in the world where some have much, & others too little — but mostly the religious confusion.....ESPECIALLY the religious confusion concerning Christianity! I find it intriguing the imbalance existing regarding schisms in major religions! In Judaism, there’s about 50 to 60 different sects; in Islam, about 60 to 70. But within Christendom, there are over 30,000! It’s almost as though an enemy has attacked it (to spread confusion), more than any of the others!

Hockeycowboy said:
How is that? What is your point?

Christians are their own worse enemies.

But not too feel bad, Muslim’s are their worse enemies too.

There are something about the two largest Abrahamic religions, the needs to try convert anyone and everyone. (Judaism don’t have the same drive to convert outsiders into their religion; “outsiders” as in those who are not Jewish by lineages as decreed by their covenants and Torah.)

When either large religions (Christianity and Islam) have too much powers - social, political, military, or the combination of the above - the powers corrupt the leaders, their policies and their religions.

tas8831 · Jul 21, 2021

Hockeycowboy said:
How is that? What is your point?
You have to consider the entire post.

Don’t quote-mine me.

LOL!

You cannot be serious!

"Don’t quote-mine"

Almost as funny as "don't plagiarize"!

9-10ths_Penguin · Jul 21, 2021

Hockeycowboy said:
How is that? What is your point?
You have to consider the entire post.

Don’t quote-mine me.

I have to say: I'm impressed.

The mental gymnastics needed to take a flaw of Christianity - i.e. that its doctrines and scriptures are so vague and contradictory that Christians as a whole can't agree what the religion ought to be - and try to spin this as a strength somehow... that took real effort.

MonkeyFire · Jul 21, 2021

Atheist are complacent to God, and there is no way to change that, unless they repent. And if you get naughty we can let you suffer your uncritical satisfaction/smugness.

Hockeycowboy · Jul 21, 2021

9-10ths_Penguin said:
I have to say: I'm impressed.

The mental gymnastics needed to take a flaw of Christianity - i.e. that its doctrines and scriptures are so vague and contradictory that Christians as a whole can't agree what the religion ought to be - and try to spin this as a strength somehow... that took real effort.

I believe there is no “flaw” in genuine Christianity.
IMO, Jesus was clear about what to search for: John 13:34-35 & Matthew 5:44 separate those who are, and those who aren’t.

It’s that simple.
If you can’t see that... you don’t want to see it.

Neither do most nominal Christians. IMO

Matthew 7:21...”Not everyone saying to me, “Lord, Lord”, will enter into the Kingdom, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the Heavens, will.”

it seems ‘the will of the Father’ is an important part of worship.

What is it?

Hockeycowboy · Jul 21, 2021

9-10ths_Penguin said:
I have to say: I'm impressed.

The mental gymnastics needed to take a flaw of Christianity - i.e. that its doctrines and scriptures are so vague and contradictory that Christians as a whole can't agree what the religion ought to be - and try to spin this as a strength somehow... that took real effort.

Why? It was prophesied to happen. In fact, misleading beliefs were to “spread like gangrene” among those claiming Christianity.

2 Timothy 2:16-19

tas8831 · Jul 22, 2021

MonkeyFire said:
Atheist are complacent to God, and there is no way to change that, unless they repent. And if you get naughty we can let you suffer your uncritical satisfaction/smugness.

That is hilarious!

Revoltingest · Jul 22, 2021

Hockeycowboy said:
It’s that simple.
If you can’t see that... you don’t want to see it.

Let's turn that around...
Believers could be atheists, but they don't want to see it.

SkepticThinker · Jul 22, 2021

Hockeycowboy said:
How is that? What is your point?
You have to consider the entire post.

Don’t quote-mine me.

Well, I asked you how we can know the Bible is true.

Then you explained to me that there are tens of thousands of different sects of Christianity, as well as many different sects of Judaism, each with their own interpretations about what the Bible says and which parts are true.

So the answer I've gathered from that is, we don't know the Bible is true, because the people who follow it can't even agree between themselves about it.

SkepticThinker · Jul 22, 2021

Hockeycowboy said:
I believe there is no “flaw” in genuine Christianity.
IMO, Jesus was clear about what to search for: John 13:34-35 & Matthew 5:44 separate those who are, and those who aren’t.

It’s that simple.
If you can’t see that... you don’t want to see it.

Neither do most nominal Christians. IMO

Matthew 7:21...”Not everyone saying to me, “Lord, Lord”, will enter into the Kingdom, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the Heavens, will.”

it seems ‘the will of the Father’ is an important part of worship.

What is it?

You yourself pointed out that very flaw.

Hockeycowboy · Jul 22, 2021

Revoltingest said:
Let's turn that around...
Believers could be atheists, but they don't want to see it.

Why would that be? What is there to see? (Or not to see?)
Please, let’s discuss it.

Hockeycowboy · Jul 22, 2021

SkepticThinker said:
Then you explained to me that there are tens of thousands of different sects of Christianity.....

Yes. And the reason is....?

SkepticThinker said:
as well as many different sects of Judaism

Waay fewer. Same with Islam. (That was the point, there’s no need for Jehovah’s Archenemy to attack them, since they don’t represent the worship of Jehovah God, IMO. (Of course, neither does most of professed Christianity anymore....they worship Jesus. IMO, the wrong God. So I believe the attack has been successful.)

In my opinion, one of the best ways to hide a genuine article, is to produce many counterfeits.

But I believe Jesus’ statement at John 13:34-35 cuts right through all that: he said a person searching for his disciples, would be able to “know” they found them, by the group’s ‘love for their brothers’ (no matter where they might live)...and ‘love for their enemies.’ (Matthew 5:44) This love, therefore, coming from Jehovah’s sprit / blessing (Galatians 5:22-23), would transcend all boundaries, whether man-made, racial, or cultural.
Those are important identifying marks. Who has this? I believe I’ve found it. Jehovah’s people, as followers of His Son, have beaten “swords into plowshares and spears into pruning hooks.” (Isaiah 2:4) I believe this is supported by the evidence.

Revoltingest · Jul 22, 2021

Hockeycowboy said:
Why would that be? What is there to see? (Or not to see?)
Please, let’s discuss it.

Atheists see a lack of evidence for gods.

Hockeycowboy · Jul 22, 2021

Revoltingest said:
Atheists see a lack of evidence for gods.

So if I may ask, how do you think matter originated? Why do we observe the elegant arrangement of atomic structures that form harmonious systems that lead, especially on this Earth, to a balance that is evident in nature?

Random chance cannot be an engineer, IMO. Not to the scale we see.

Yes, there’s attraction between some different atoms & molecules,
but I believe that saying attraction coupled with undirected forces, is best in explaining the functional organization observed, is taking it all for granted. Or granite....whichever (hehe).

That’s why I think an atheist is more likely to become a believer in a Higher Power (not necessarily the Abrahamic God), than a believer to become an atheist.

Now, due to the prevalence of suffering (another subject entirely), I can understand why someone might become an agnostic, but still, not an atheist. IMO.

Take care, my cousin.

mikkel_the_dane · Jul 23, 2021

Yazata said:
I'd say that atheism typically consists of agreement with at least these two positions --

1. 'God' (at least as imagined in the 'Abrahamic' traditions that atheists typically seem to presuppose) does not exist. In other words, atheism is the belief that the proposition 'God exists' is false.

and

2. 'Religion' (typically imagined as if the paradigm of all religiosity is Biblical-literalist Protestant Christianity) is wrong in a moral sense as well as a cognitive sense. There's typically the idea that 'religion' has been a social evil throughout history and that the elimination of religion today would be a social good.

There is oftentimes (but not always) --

3. A belief in metaphysical naturalism. The idea that reality is coextensive with the world of natural science and that the conceptual inventory of fundamental physics is all that does or can exist.

4. An association of atheism with scientism, often with a vague idea that science is smart, and since atheism champions science, atheism must be smart too. There's often an assumption of intellectual superiority that many atheists wear on their sleeves. They perceive themselves as champions of reason and often seem to assume that they reason far better than whoever they choose as their opponents.

For 1. I am an atheist and I don't hold the belief that the proposition 'God exists' is false.
For 2. I don't believe "Religion" is morally wrong. As for cognitive, well, yes. In a limited sense "Religion" is wrong, but the world and everyday life can't be done in only a cognitive sense.

Revoltingest · Jul 23, 2021

Hockeycowboy said:
So if I may ask, how do you think matter originated? Why do we observe the elegant arrangement of atomic structures that form harmonious systems that lead, especially on this Earth, to a balance that is evident in nature?

I haven't a clue.

Random chance cannot be an engineer, IMO. Not to the scale we see.

Who says there are only 2 options, ie, either random chance or God did it?
There's a 3rd option: stochastic processes, which do exhibit emergent
processes, eg, stars, planets. Is this option not seen by some of the faithful?

Yes, there’s attraction between some different atoms & molecules,
but I believe that saying attraction coupled with undirected forces, is best in explaining the functional organization observed, is taking it all for granted. Or granite....whichever (hehe).

Matter behaves according to physical laws.
Again...there are emergent properties from stochastic processes.

That’s why I think an atheist is more likely to become a believer in a Higher Power (not necessarily the Abrahamic God), than a believer to become an atheist.

I don't see the same likelihood. Most of the atheists I
know were raised Christian (some Muslim, some Jew).
I'm one of the few who never believed.

Now, due to the prevalence of suffering (another subject entirely), I can understand why someone might become an agnostic, but still, not an atheist. IMO.

Suffering might matter to someone who believes in benevolent
gods, but that's never been an issue to me. We're part of the
natural world, which is rife with life, survival, suffering, & death.

Take care, my cousin.

Thanx!

SkepticThinker · Jul 23, 2021

Hockeycowboy said:
Yes. And the reason is....?

Waay fewer. Same with Islam. (That was the point, there’s no need for Jehovah’s Archenemy to attack them, since they don’t represent the worship of Jehovah God, IMO. (Of course, neither does most of professed Christianity anymore....they worship Jesus. IMO, the wrong God. So I believe the attack has been successful.)

In my opinion, one of the best ways to hide a genuine article, is to produce many counterfeits.

But I believe Jesus’ statement at John 13:34-35 cuts right through all that: he said a person searching for his disciples, would be able to “know” they found them, by the group’s ‘love for their brothers’ (no matter where they might live)...and ‘love for their enemies.’ (Matthew 5:44) This love, therefore, coming from Jehovah’s sprit / blessing (Galatians 5:22-23), would transcend all boundaries, whether man-made, racial, or cultural.
Those are important identifying marks. Who has this? I believe I’ve found it. Jehovah’s people, as followers of His Son, have beaten “swords into plowshares and spears into pruning hooks.” (Isaiah 2:4) I believe this is supported by the evidence.

This doesn't address my post in any way that I can see.
It might have something to do with butchering my post ...

The Trouble with Atheism.....

Witness for Jehovah

Veteran Member

Witness for Jehovah

The Lost One

Well-Known Member

1/10 Subway Stalinist

Well-Known Member

Witness for Jehovah

Witness for Jehovah

Well-Known Member

Pragmatic Libertarian

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Witness for Jehovah

Witness for Jehovah

Pragmatic Libertarian

Witness for Jehovah

My own religion

Pragmatic Libertarian

Veteran Member