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ALL have sinned.

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
How can what displeases God be unknowable when God has gone to the trouble of setting out his Law to define right from wrong?
Because that opens the door to invasive war, seizure of the territories of others, massacres of conquered populations, mass rape, human sacrifice, slavery, women as property, murderous religious intolerance and so on ─ all of which, the bible informs us, were ordained or done by God [him]self. So if what God does is moral, we can all do it too.
This is the Law that lsrael established its greatness under (King David's united kingdom) and it was failure to adhere to the Law that led to Israel's exile from the land (both Assyrian and Babylonian exiles).
No, it was the failure to withstand the armed forces of those foreign powers. Or as the saying goes, God is on the side of the big battalions ─ self-evidently, since they do the lion's share of the winning, despite any view Goliath might hold.
What Jesus added to the conventional view of the law was a spiritual element. He was saying that behaviour is determined by the meditation of the heart, things unseen by others.
That's an idea that in various forms had existed in Greek thought for centuries by then, of course. Much of Jesus' message is influenced by Greek thought, eg taking to the roads, talking to people you meet, and relying on luck / the gods to provide you with a meal and a place to sleep is from Cynic philosophy.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
To use Europe as an example of secularism is to overlook Christian influence and history. All European countries have been deeply influenced by their Christian past.
And then they killed god and chilled out. Way out. Europe went from one internal war after another and now is going on a century without any internal warfare. And Germany is currently of its longest running boarders.
That Christian past was lots of fighting, death, and violence. But we've since come up with rights and values that are better than those found in Abrahamic, with our most valued and cherished---such as freedom of religion--being fundamentally incompatible with the Bible.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Because that opens the door to invasive war, seizure of the territories of others, massacres of conquered populations, mass rape, human sacrifice, slavery, women as property, murderous religious intolerance and so on ─ all of which, the bible informs us, were ordained or done by God [him]self. So if what God does is moral, we can all do it too.
No, it was the failure to withstand the armed forces of those foreign powers. Or as the saying goes, God is on the side of the big battalions ─ self-evidently, since they do the lion's share of the winning, despite any view Goliath might hold.
That's an idea that in various forms had existed in Greek thought for centuries by then, of course. Much of Jesus' message is influenced by Greek thought, eg taking to the roads, talking to people you meet, and relying on luck / the gods to provide you with a meal and a place to sleep is from Cynic philosophy.
I think it's important to distinguish between the Law delivered to Moses and Israel and the history of the nation. There were many times in the history of lsrael when actions were taken that did not please God. Even Moses made mistakes, and, ultimately, he was prevented from entering the Promised Land.

On those occasions when God did tell lsrael to conquer a people, was this not justice being metered out against those who practised child sacrifice, divination and idolatry? Who are we to claim that this was not justice?

The development of thinking in Greek culture may have coincided with the appearance of Christ, but this would have been all a part of God's timing. For Christ to appear, the conditions of his coming must have been foreseen, making it possible for the Gospel to be preached throughout the Roman Empire, and the world.

To me the Bible and Holy Spirit provide us with the best evidence of God's existence. I have not come across a satisfactory answer from any secular humanist or atheist to counter the prophecy of scripture and history of Israel.

Certainly the Jews would not have survived, or returned after two thousand years of dispersal, had God not been running the show.
 

Justanatheist

Well-Known Member
Certainly the Jews would not have survived, or returned after two thousand years of dispersal, had God not been running the show.

God in action!

KD_1946.JPG


Chalk up another 91 deaths and 41 injured to your god running the show
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
And then they killed god and chilled out. Way out. Europe went from one internal war after another and now is going on a century without any internal warfare. And Germany is currently of its longest running boarders.
That Christian past was lots of fighting, death, and violence. But we've since come up with rights and values that are better than those found in Abrahamic, with our most valued and cherished---such as freedom of religion--being fundamentally incompatible with the Bible.
Jesus prophesied of 'wars and rumours of wars' so that should come as no surprise! True peace is not prophesied until Christ returns to bring justice and judgment to all nations.

The development of just and fair democratic processes have all been influenced by the Judeo-Christian scriptures concerning justice and mercy.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
God in action!

KD_1946.JPG


Chalk up another 91 deaths and 41 injured to your god running the show
That looks like the King David hotel in Jerusalem, a target for Jews wishing to see the British go home.

Did scripture say that wars would cease before Christ's final judgment? I don't believe so.

Why is God to blame for these deaths? Free will allows for hatred. The more important question is whether or not you are prone to violence and hatred. Do you have the Spirit of love?
 

Justanatheist

Well-Known Member
That looks like the King David hotel in Jerusalem, a target for Jews wishing to see the British go home.

Did scripture say that wars would cease before Christ's final judgment? I don't believe so.

Why is God to blame for these deaths? Free will allows for hatred. The more important question is whether or not you are prone to violence and hatred. Do you have the Spirit of love?
This is your god running the show, Israel was created by terrorism, it is all very well talking about love but this is the reality of how your god ran the show.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Jesus prophesied of 'wars and rumours of wars' so that should come as no surprise! True peace is not prophesied until Christ returns to bring justice and judgment to all nations.
Yup. And its a fact of life for much of the world that our chances of being killed in an act of violence--including war--has never been lower. Wars still happen, but not like they have.
What's surprising was you ducking my pointing out Europe's peace and Germany's boarder.
The development of just and fair democratic processes have all been influenced by the Judeo-Christian scriptures concerning justice and mercy.
Scriptures don't allow for freedom of religion, consensual sex outside marriage, disrespecting parents, working on the Sabbath, but it does allow for slavery. And it's so anti-woman that Paul tells women to shut up and says he will not "suffer a woman to usurp authority over a man."
The idea of the law equally applying to all is not Biblical, with this thread seeing proclaimed Jehovah is "do as I say, not as I do." The idea that every citizen should have a voice in the affairs of the state isn't Biblical (that's basically a theocratic absolute monarchy), it's Greek.
And one the more recent and groundbreaking work in the development of the state took it a step further by proclaiming in ink that the state shall make no laws respecting the establishment of religion, and also not impeding on the free practice thereof. It saw to it there is a big wall between the two.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I think it's important to distinguish between the Law delivered to Moses and Israel and the history of the nation. There were many times in the history of lsrael when actions were taken that did not please God. Even Moses made mistakes, and, ultimately, he was prevented from entering the Promised Land.
That's one the one hand. On the other hand, there's the conduct which the Tanakh attributes unambiguously to Yahweh.
On those occasions when God did tell lsrael to conquer a people, was this not justice being metered out against those who practised child sacrifice, divination and idolatry? Who are we to claim that this was not justice?
Well ...

Exodus 22:29-30 You must give me the firstborn of your sons. Do the same with your cattle and your sheep. Let them stay with their mothers for seven days, but give them to me on the eighth day.

Joshua 6:21 They devoted the city to the LORD and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it - men and women, young and old

Numbers 31:25 (God claims a 'tribute' of 32 captives.)

Judges 1: 30-39 (the sacrifice to Yahweh of Jephthah's daughter.

And of course the New Testament.

I don't think Yahweh's record with human and child sacrifice will stand the close-up look. Nor is it easy for modern humans to recapture the notion that sacrifice of lives to God in cold blood is appropriate from time to time.
The development of thinking in Greek culture may have coincided with the appearance of Christ, but this would have been all a part of God's timing.
No, Greeks had been developing philosophy since at least the time of Thales, 7th-6th century BCE, and the ideas I spoke of were around from the time of Plato (5th century BCE) onwards.

As well as that, the "golden rule" has been found in cultures long before Yahweh comes on the scene c. 1500 BCE, almost certainly because humans have an evolved morality as well as an acquired one, and the evolved part includes like of fairness and reciprocity, hence is found all over the world.
For Christ to appear, the conditions of his coming must have been foreseen, making it possible for the Gospel to be preached throughout the Roman Empire, and the world.
If that were so, would it not have been vastly more efficient to have Jesus born in Rome, and counterparts of Jesus in all of the other cultures of the world at the same time? As it stands, the native peoples of many countries around the world had never heard of Jesus till the 19th and 20th centuries.
To me the Bible and Holy Spirit provide us with the best evidence of God's existence. .
If that helps you to deal with other people with decency, respect and inclusion, you'll get no argument from me.
I have not come across a satisfactory answer from any secular humanist or atheist to counter the prophecy of scripture and history of Israel. Certainly the Jews would not have survived, or returned after two thousand years of dispersal, had God not been running the show.
I always find this claim peculiar. Frequently murderous Christian antisemitism was Jesus' gift to the Jews, all the way through to the holocaust. Zionism from the 19th century on was driven by a set of cultural attitudes amongst Jewish people reinforced by antisemitism, and in the 20th century also by slogans and politics.

The Jewish takeover of Palestine was also a very bad day for the Palestinians, and this continues to be the case. If returning Jewish people to Palestine is God's idea of justice then God has a very strange idea of justice. I'm not antisemitic ─ my children have some Jewish ancestry ─ but there are times when I'm heartily opposed to the politics of Israel.

Which brings me back to what I said about decency, respect and inclusion.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
This is your god running the show, Israel was created by terrorism, it is all very well talking about love but this is the reality of how your god ran the show.
One can point the finger at individuals from every nation who have been led by the desires of the flesh rather than the truth of the Holy Spirit.

Show me New Testament scripture that encourages violence and destruction.
 
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Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
That's one the one hand. On the other hand, there's the conduct which the Tanakh attributes unambiguously to Yahweh.
Well ...

Exodus 22:29-30 You must give me the firstborn of your sons. Do the same with your cattle and your sheep. Let them stay with their mothers for seven days, but give them to me on the eighth day.

Joshua 6:21 They devoted the city to the LORD and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it - men and women, young and old

Numbers 31:25 (God claims a 'tribute' of 32 captives.)

Judges 1: 30-39 (the sacrifice to Yahweh of Jephthah's daughter.

And of course the New Testament.

I don't think Yahweh's record with human and child sacrifice will stand the close-up look. Nor is it easy for modern humans to recapture the notion that sacrifice of lives to God in cold blood is appropriate from time to time.
No, Greeks had been developing philosophy since at least the time of Thales, 7th-6th century BCE, and the ideas I spoke of were around from the time of Plato (5th century BCE) onwards.

As well as that, the "golden rule" has been found in cultures long before Yahweh comes on the scene c. 1500 BCE, almost certainly because humans have an evolved morality as well as an acquired one, and the evolved part includes like of fairness and reciprocity, hence is found all over the world.
If that were so, would it not have been vastly more efficient to have Jesus born in Rome, and counterparts of Jesus in all of the other cultures of the world at the same time? As it stands, the native peoples of many countries around the world had never heard of Jesus till the 19th and 20th centuries.
If that helps you to deal with other people with decency, respect and inclusion, you'll get no argument from me.
I always find this claim peculiar. Frequently murderous Christian antisemitism was Jesus' gift to the Jews, all the way through to the holocaust. Zionism from the 19th century on was driven by a set of cultural attitudes amongst Jewish people reinforced by antisemitism, and in the 20th century also by slogans and politics.

The Jewish takeover of Palestine was also a very bad day for the Palestinians, and this continues to be the case. If returning Jewish people to Palestine is God's idea of justice then God has a very strange idea of justice. I'm not antisemitic ─ my children have some Jewish ancestry ─ but there are times when I'm heartily opposed to the politics of Israel.

Which brings me back to what I said about decency, respect and inclusion.
The giving of the firstborn sons to God was not a human sacrifice through taking life. It was the dedication of a life through service. This is why it's important to be clear about the justice found in God's law. Of the 613 laws found in the Torah is there one that you consider to be unjust?

What distinguished Israel from all other nations was their reliance and trust in YHWH. All other nations had multiple gods, and all had practices that broke God's commandments.

I accept what you say about the origins of Greek philosophy. The point l was making was that God chose to send his Messiah at a time in history when Greek culture was influential in Asia Minor and the Mediterranean. For this reason, the New Testament was written in Greek.

Blaming Jesus, a Jew, for the murder of Jews is hardly fair! John makes it clear that Jesus came to 'his own' and that they 'received him not'. Hosea [6:1-3] prophesied that for 'two days' (two thousand years) lsrael and Judah would be cast out and 'smitten'. All this seems to be following God's words of prophecy. Do you blame God for the national Jewish decision to reject Jesus as the Messiah?

So, do you think Hamas and the Palestinians are doing God's will? To me, the key, once again, is Christ. He offers the only solution to the lsrael/Palestinian conflict. All must accept Christ to find peace.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The giving of the firstborn sons to God was not a human sacrifice through taking life. It was the dedication of a life through service.
With respect, that's not what it says. Instead it says that the firstborn is in the same boat as the sheep and the goats.
This is why it's important to be clear about the justice found in God's law. Of the 613 laws found in the Torah is there one that you consider to be unjust?
All of the ones to do with slavery. Most of the ones touching on the unequal status of women.
What distinguished Israel from all other nations was their reliance and trust in YHWH. All other nations had multiple gods, and all had practices that broke God's commandments.
Be fair. If you came from another tribe with another god, then you'd never heard of Yahweh's commandments, so there was no way you could voluntarily disobey them.
Blaming Jesus, a Jew, for the murder of Jews is hardly fair! John makes it clear that Jesus came to 'his own' and that they 'received him not'.
John is the last gospel and the first one with anti-semitic tones. The Christians by the 90s CE were no longer a Jewish sect but a distinct and rival religion. Note how their success was not among the Jewish communities but, as Paul showed, among the pagans, which is where their decisive historical good fortune was found, in Constantine's mother.
Hosea [6:1-3] prophesied that for 'two days' (two thousand years) lsrael and Judah would be cast out and 'smitten'.
I don't accept that one can read any biblical year as 'a thousand years' just because it suits one's purposes. In Psalms 90:4 it says "For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past". ("A thousand years" is also mentioned in Ecclesiastes 6:6 but not relevantly here.) That's all ─ there's nothing else in the Tanakh, and the NT didn't exist in Jesus' day or indeed in the first century.
Do you blame God for the national Jewish decision to reject Jesus as the Messiah?
If you were a 1st century Jerusalem Jew, how on earth could you think Jesus was a messiah? He wasn't a civil, or military, or religious leader of the Jews, and he was never anointed by the Jewish priesthood ─ 'messiah' means 'anointed' as does its Greek translation 'christos'. He was just another player in the religious activities of the times, and pro-Roman to boot.
So, do you think Hamas and the Palestinians are doing God's will?
Why don't you ask a Muslim? They'll reasonably reply that the Abrahamic god is their god, and it's the Jews who are the invaders and interlopers.
 

Justanatheist

Well-Known Member
One can point the finger at individuals from every nation who have been led by the desires of the flesh rather than the truth of the Holy Spirit.

Show me New Testament scripture that encourages violence and destruction.
You clearly stated your god was running the show, how do you think Israel was reestablished praying around the campfire?
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
With respect, that's not what it says. Instead it says that the firstborn is in the same boat as the sheep and the goats.
All of the ones to do with slavery. Most of the ones touching on the unequal status of women.
Be fair. If you came from another tribe with another god, then you'd never heard of Yahweh's commandments, so there was no way you could voluntarily disobey them.
John is the last gospel and the first one with anti-semitic tones. The Christians by the 90s CE were no longer a Jewish sect but a distinct and rival religion. Note how their success was not among the Jewish communities but, as Paul showed, among the pagans, which is where their decisive historical good fortune was found, in Constantine's mother.
I don't accept that one can read any biblical year as 'a thousand years' just because it suits one's purposes. In Psalms 90:4 it says "For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past". ("A thousand years" is also mentioned in Ecclesiastes 6:6 but not relevantly here.) That's all ─ there's nothing else in the Tanakh, and the NT didn't exist in Jesus' day or indeed in the first century.
If you were a 1st century Jerusalem Jew, how on earth could you think Jesus was a messiah? He wasn't a civil, or military, or religious leader of the Jews, and he was never anointed by the Jewish priesthood ─ 'messiah' means 'anointed' as does its Greek translation 'christos'. He was just another player in the religious activities of the times, and pro-Roman to boot.
Why don't you ask a Muslim? They'll reasonably reply that the Abrahamic god is their god, and it's the Jews who are the invaders and interlopers.
A day as a thousand years is a time frame from Genesis 1. Not only do we find it discussed amongst the rabbis in the Talmud, but we find Peter in the NT using the same interpretation of the Hebrew scriptures. Here are his words:
'But beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.' [ 2 Peter 3:8]

Peter is keen that we should not be ignorant of the use of 'days' in prophecy. There is a week of days that applies to the present heaven and earth, and God's designs take place within that time frame.

So Hosea's prophecy was using a time scheme laid down in Genesis yet explained in both Hebrew and Greek scriptures.

This same time frame was used by the Jews to determine the appearance of the Messiah. The belief was that the first two thousand years after Adam would be a time of 'void' (conscience); the next two thousand years would see the Torah flourish; and then there would be two thousand years of the Messianic Age, followed by a Sabbath of peace.

Expectations of a coming Messiah were at their height around the time of Jesus (which is why many false Messiahs appear at this time). Not many knew exactly how to identify the Messiah but they did know that Prophecy would introduce him [John, Mary, Elizabeth, Simeon and Anna had word of knowledge] and that prophecy and healing would play an important role in his ministry. They were also aware of passages like lsaiah 61:1-3.

Problems and confusion arose because prophecies of the first and second comings were often combined [lsaiah 61:2] The Suffering Servant appears lowly and upon a donkey, the Messiah Judge upon the clouds of heaven. How is one to envisage a servant offering up his life as being the same as a king sitting in judgment?
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
A day as a thousand years is a time frame from Genesis 1.
No. It's not. In each case it specifically says that the evening and the morning were the day. That's a normal 24-hour day. Likewise the seventh day, the day of rest, is Saturday, a normal day.
Not only do we find it discussed amongst the rabbis in the Talmud, but we find Peter in the NT using the same interpretation of the Hebrew scriptures. Here are his words: 'But beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.' [ 2 Peter 3:8]
First, so what? That's just a figure of speech, not a way of reckoning real time, nor is it so used anywhere. Second, 2 Peter isn't written by Peter. In fact we don't know who wrote 2 Peter, any more than we know who wrote the gospels. The only candidates for known authorship are those letters of Paul we've been able to authenticate to a satisfactory degree.
This same time frame was used by the Jews to determine the appearance of the Messiah.
Where does the Tanakh say that?
Expectations of a coming Messiah were at their height around the time of Jesus (which is why many false Messiahs appear at this time).
The whole point of the Messiah in Jesus' day was to liberate Judea from the Romans and restore autonomy.
Not many knew exactly how to identify the Messiah but they did know that Prophecy would introduce him [John, Mary, Elizabeth, Simeon and Anna had word of knowledge] and that prophecy and healing would play an important role in his ministry. They were also aware of passages like lsaiah 61:1-3.
First, it can be correct to say that X acted in a particular way because he or she believed a particular prophecy. Second, it can never be correct to say that any particular prophecy was in fact an example of supernatural foreknowledge. For instance, one of the ways we can date Mark to after 70 CE is because Jesus 'prophesies' the Romans' destruction of Jerusalem, which as you know happened in 70 CE. (It's not the only indicator, of course.)
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
No. It's not. In each case it specifically says that the evening and the morning were the day. That's a normal 24-hour day. Likewise the seventh day, the day of rest, is Saturday, a normal day.
First, so what? That's just a figure of speech, not a way of reckoning real time, nor is it so used anywhere. Second, 2 Peter isn't written by Peter. In fact we don't know who wrote 2 Peter, any more than we know who wrote the gospels. The only candidates for known authorship are those letters of Paul we've been able to authenticate to a satisfactory degree.
Where does the Tanakh say that?
The whole point of the Messiah in Jesus' day was to liberate Judea from the Romans and restore autonomy.
First, it can be correct to say that X acted in a particular way because he or she believed a particular prophecy. Second, it can never be correct to say that any particular prophecy was in fact an example of supernatural foreknowledge. For instance, one of the ways we can date Mark to after 70 CE is because Jesus 'prophesies' the Romans' destruction of Jerusalem, which as you know happened in 70 CE. (It's not the only indicator, of course.)
There exists an on-going dispute between those who believe what the scriptures say and those who cannot believe scripture because scripture contains prophecy and miracles. This is no different to saying that some people start with believing Genesis 1:1 and others don't. You clearly don't accept Genesis 1:1. Why, therefore, are you trying to tell me, and those who believe, that the scriptures are inaccurate?

Questioning the traditions of Jews and Christians on issues of scriptural authenticity is a relatively recent phenomenon brought about by textual criticism and other humanist forms of biblical scholarship.

Let's take as an example the dating of the synoptic Gospels to some period after 70 CE. Traditionally, all three synoptic Gospels were believed to have been written before the destruction of the temple in 70 CE. In fact, it's likely that they were all completed before 66CE when the Jewish Wars began. Why? Because the internal evidence supports such a position. The writers of all three books, especially Luke, whose narrative continues with the book of Acts, provide no hint of the great calamity that was about to engulf Jerusalem and the Temple. Furthermore, the book of Acts tells us a lot about the Jewish Church, headed by Peter in Jerusalem, in the years before the city was destroyed. Why are the Jewish wars and the seige not mentioned in connection with the Church?

The 'day as a thousand years' is not the only way in which Genesis is read. As with much of scripture, God gives layers of meaning. Jews have learned to begin their days in the evening, to work six days, and to rest on the Sabbath. One form of exegesis does not nullify another. As with parables, there is both an earthly application and a heavenly one.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
There exists an on-going dispute between those who believe what the scriptures say and those who cannot believe scripture because scripture contains prophecy and miracles. This is no different to saying that some people start with believing Genesis 1:1 and others don't. You clearly don't accept Genesis 1:1. Why, therefore, are you trying to tell me, and those who believe, that the scriptures are inaccurate?
Because not only are they inaccurate but it's easy to show they're inaccurate. (And, of course, because this is a debate forum.)
Questioning the traditions of Jews and Christians on issues of scriptural authenticity is a relatively recent phenomenon brought about by textual criticism and other humanist forms of biblical scholarship.
The Enlightenment ─ the generalizing of objective and skeptical reasoned enquiry ─ starts in the 17th century. As part of that, textual analysis and critical study of bible texts begins in Germany late in the 18th century. The benefits to our understanding have been enormous.
Let's take as an example the dating of the synoptic Gospels to some period after 70 CE. Traditionally, all three synoptic Gospels were believed to have been written before the destruction of the temple in 70 CE. In fact, it's likely that they were all completed before 66CE when the Jewish Wars began. Why? Because the internal evidence supports such a position.
It's plain that Mark is the first gospel written ─ Mark doesn't copy anyone, everyone copies Mark. Dating Mark includes the 'prophecy' of the destruction of Jerusalem. It also includes noting that the author of Mark got his trial-of-Jesus scene from the trial of Jesus son of Ananias ('Jesus of Jerusalem') in Josephus' Wars ─ which wasn't published till 75 CE. and so on.
The 'day as a thousand years' is not the only way in which Genesis is read.
As I said, there's no basis at all for reading it that way ─ the evening and the morning are the day in each case in Genesis, and the ONLY relevant reference to 'a thousand years' is clearly a poetic image.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Because not only are they inaccurate but it's easy to show they're inaccurate. (And, of course, because this is a debate forum.)
The Enlightenment ─ the generalizing of objective and skeptical reasoned enquiry ─ starts in the 17th century. As part of that, textual analysis and critical study of bible texts begins in Germany late in the 18th century. The benefits to our understanding have been enormous.
It's plain that Mark is the first gospel written ─ Mark doesn't copy anyone, everyone copies Mark. Dating Mark includes the 'prophecy' of the destruction of Jerusalem. It also includes noting that the author of Mark got his trial-of-Jesus scene from the trial of Jesus son of Ananias ('Jesus of Jerusalem') in Josephus' Wars ─ which wasn't published till 75 CE. and so on.
As I said, there's no basis at all for reading it that way ─ the evening and the morning are the day in each case in Genesis, and the ONLY relevant reference to 'a thousand years' is clearly a poetic image.
I've heard many people say that the scriptures are inaccurate and contradictory, but on a careful study of the offending passages it becomes clear that no such inaccuracy exists. Finding a word, name, or phrase, that has been mistakenly copied is not the issue. The issue is whether the narrative from Genesis to Revelation is complete and comprehensive and it's message and themes clear and consistent. This is a claim to truth at a purely literal level, aside from the spiritual impact that the words have had on millions of people, which is much harder to quantify.

The question that many atheists and secular humanists find hard to answer is, What is the truth? I am clear that all prophecy points to the truth of Jesus Christ, but if one is to ignore Christ, what is being offered as an alternative?

I do not, as yet, know exactly what you believe to be true, Blu, but l do know that the Psalmist has some harsh words for those that dismiss God's existence [Psalm 14]

So, allow me to present an alternative to the spiritual view of life as found in the Bible. Please correct me if l fail to give a fair overview of the atheist's position.

There is no God, no intelligent design, no purpose for mankind. This life, which is short by comparison with the life of the universe and the earth, is really no more than a 'flash in the pan'. Why not just eat, drink and be merry?

What is worthwhile, in your opinion? Do you think we're important because we write a song, invent a new vaccine, or build an orphanage in Romania?

As far as l know, Jesus did none of those things. Yet, to me, he is the Truth.
 
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