Why do Chr-stians and non-Christians alike believe they will go to heaven when they die?

Messianic Israelite · Jul 19, 2021

Brickjectivity said:
How are you different from someone who believes in heaven? You like the afterlife. You like the idea that you'll be personally resurrected. You're the same to me. But I want to hear certain things, too. This is a vulnerability in people.

Good morning Brickjectivity. The difference is, the Bible teaches a resurrection and the Bible, the Word of Yahweh, is truth. It's proven to be. Hebrews 11 says "Now faith is assurance of things hoped for, a conviction of things not seen." We can have faith in things which aren't Biblical, but that won't please Yahweh and it won't bring us in to the truth. There is truth out there. True religion that is. I think the idea that we go to heaven when we die sounds nice, but I can't believe it because it's not Biblical. We don't have to be vulnerable when we believe in the truth. No matter how much I want to believe something, the Bible is what will stand in the end so in my faith we have made it our aim to find out what it says, and to have faith in that.

Brickjectivity · Jul 19, 2021

Messianic Israelite said:
Good morning Brickjectivity. The difference is, the Bible teaches a resurrection and the Bible, the Word of Yahweh, is truth. It's proven to be. Hebrews 11 says "Now faith is assurance of things hoped for, a conviction of things not seen." We can have faith in things which aren't Biblical, but that won't please Yahweh and it won't bring us in to the truth. There is truth out there. True religion that is. I think the idea that we go to heaven when we die sounds nice, but I can't believe it because it's not Biblical. We don't have to be vulnerable when we believe in the truth. No matter how much I want to believe something, the Bible is what will stand in the end so in my faith we have made it our aim to find out what it says, and to have faith in that.

I recall that Hebrews 11 often mistranslates to faith what ought to be rendered as faithfulness in order to remove the emphasis on faithfulness and change it into belief. Its easy to see this if you compare Hebrews 10:38 with Habakkuk 2:4

[Hab 2:4 NIV] 4 "See, the enemy is puffed up; his desires are not upright--but the righteous person will live by his faithfulness--
[Heb 10:38 NIV] 38 And, "But my righteous one will live by faith. And I take no pleasure in the one who shrinks back."

As you can see Hebrews 10:38 translators morph faithfulness into mere faith. It is an abortion. Now why did you not know this yet decided to teach me? Because teachers make all kinds of mistakes. That's why.

So the passage you have quoted about faith is actually about faithfulness, and if you accept the scripture as binding as you claim then change some things that you are saying to me to reflect what scripture actually says.

People don't usually notice the above plain mistranslation, because it isn't what they want to hear. It is the vulnerability that we all share, itching to hear certain things.

Now tell me again that I'm the one believing things that aren't biblical and that you aren't.

Messianic Israelite · Jul 20, 2021

Brickjectivity said:
I recall that Hebrews 11 often mistranslates to faith what ought to be rendered as faithfulness in order to remove the emphasis on faithfulness and change it into belief. Its easy to see this if you compare Hebrews 10:38 with Habakkuk 2:4

[Hab 2:4 NIV] 4 "See, the enemy is puffed up; his desires are not upright--but the righteous person will live by his faithfulness--

[Heb 10:38 NIV] 38 And, "But my righteous one will live by faith. And I take no pleasure in the one who shrinks back."

As you can see Hebrews 10:38 translators morph faithfulness into mere faith. It is an abortion. Now why did you not know this yet decided to teach me? Because teachers make all kinds of mistakes. That's why.

So the passage you have quoted about faith is actually about faithfulness, and if you accept the scripture as binding as you claim then change some things that you are saying to me to reflect what scripture actually says.

People don't usually notice the above plain mistranslation, because it isn't what they want to hear. It is the vulnerability that we all share, itching to hear certain things.

Now tell me again that I'm the one believing things that aren't biblical and that you aren't.

Hi Brickjectivity. Good morning. The word 'faith' in Hebrews 11:1 is from the word πίστις pístis, pis'-tis; from G3982; meaning persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of Yahweh or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Yahshua for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:—assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity. That is according to Strong's definition. So I think the translation 'faith' is true.

But another point you make. I don't consider myself a teacher. I'm just a Bible student, and trying my best to follow in Yahshua's example. If I held my tongue, I wouldn't be able to witness the truth that I have learnt, which would be wrong. After all, Yahweh has done so much for me.

Brickjectivity · Jul 20, 2021

Messianic Israelite said:
Hi Brickjectivity. Good morning. The word 'faith' in Hebrews 11:1 is from the word πίστις pístis, pis'-tis; from G3982; meaning persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of Yahweh or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Yahshua for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:—assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity. That is according to Strong's definition. So I think the translation 'faith' is true.

Good morning to you, too.

The language has shifted since the KJV. Newer Lexicons will include 'Faithfulness' along side of 'Faith' for this Greek term. Language shift (over a century or a few) is how this entire misunderstanding is made possible. Strong's, based upon the KJV, is formed from a different time, when the word faith implies faithfulness, but this is no longer the meaning in current English; but Strong's is still using the old definition.

This shift was made possible by the recalcitrant and backsliding nature of all those people who would rather believe than take action and all those ministers who benefited from such inaction. The testimony of the quotation of Habakkuk in Hebrews is the evidence of the shift and of the cognitive dissonance, but there is more evidence that language shifts and that the meaning of faith has shifted to become hollow. Its easier to believe than to do, and though believing is important its not doing. You must agree at least on that last bit.

Messianic Israelite said:
But another point you make. I don't consider myself a teacher. I'm just a Bible student, and trying my best to follow in Yahshua's example. If I held my tongue, I wouldn't be able to witness the truth that I have learnt, which would be wrong. After all, Yahweh has done so much for me.

Then how about if I say it this way: "We can retreat to bad resources in order to hear the sweet nothings of unfaithfulness, but the bible teaches that faithfulness is required in Hebrews 11:1 as in Hebrews 10:38" Faithfulness is one of the two modern translations of the Greek G3982, and the language has shifted since Strong died. Do not ignore this, Just a bible student.

Messianic Israelite said:
There is truth out there. True religion that is.

Yes, and it is a heroic way to live. Those who do live this way are honorable and shining beings, and those who do nothing are not.

Jeremiah Ames · Jul 20, 2021

Messianic Israelite said:
Hi Jeremiah Ames. Good morning. How can believing in the Bible do damage to the Bible? If we research the Bible for truth, to determine true doctrine, we can't do damage to the Bible. We can only do damage to the Bible if we believe in lies and claim that the Bible supports those lies. The Word of Yahweh is the truth. And I don't have all the answers. We can always ask Yahweh for more wisdom so we know all mysteries. Paul said "And if I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing." Love is paramount because if we love Yahweh and love our neighbor, we will be fulfilling the Word of Yahweh.

To respond to your question, Do you believe you go to heaven, and do so without dying first?

1, it is ridiculous to say that believing in the Bible does damage to the Bible
Fortunately, I never said that.
2. I believe that doctrine as truth is an oxymoron. Doctrine comes from people, truth comes the Lord. Matthew 15:9 covers that one, although it isn’t the only one. I have absolutely NO truth (zero). I rely on the Lord for that.
Therefore, everything (everything) that I say here is not truth. But truth can be found in the Bible verses I quoted.
3. That is one of the finest quotes from Paul. There is none better, imo. It seems like you may have forgotten that particular verse when you responded to my ‘punishment’ thread.
4. Answer to your question: Absolutely. The Lord speaks of the kingdom of heaven quite often, and never implies that death is a prerequisite. I won’t mention the many verses to that effect, but will note that Matthew 18:3 gives a pretty specific requirement.

nPeace · Jul 20, 2021

Messianic Israelite said:
So many people believe that they will go to heaven when they die. You go to a funeral, and the relatives that come up to speak, or the preacher, will say that the person is in heaven now. I suppose it is easy to hear and comforting in a sense to believe that your loved ones are in heaven, but it's not the truth according to the Bible. And we should be men and women of truth. I believe the 10 commandments teach us this in the 9th commandment. Yet most people believe the Bible teaches that we go to heaven when we die. Even when reading the parable of the rich man and lazarus, it does not suggest that we go to heaven when we die as some assume. When we die, we are dead, and we rest there awaiting the resurrection. There is a first and second resurrection according to the Bible. The first resurrection is for when Yahshua our Savior returns and with it will be resurrected those who have died in the Messiah, or died in the faith (Revelation 20:6). The second resurrection is for after the 1,000 year Kingdom on this earth has ended and all the rest will be brought before the great, white throne judgment to be judged. At that time, there will be gnashing of teeth as the wicked is severed from the righteous and destroyed in Gehenna Fire.

Yahshua was different. He was not of this world, he was originally a heavenly being pre-existing with the Father. We are earthly beings. We were born on this earth and the scriptures tell us the meek shall inherit the earth, not heaven (Matthew 5:5).

Chr-stianity has really done a great deal of damage to the Bible by trying to comfort the masses. One can find comfort in the Bible. One does not need to invent ideas to make the message more palatable. If we die, we will rest in our lot and be resurrected. Those that are blessed to receive the first resurrection will rule in Yahweh's Kingdom on earth as kings and priests. The new Jerusalem will come forth out of heaven to this earth prepared for the people of Yahweh as we read in Revelation 21. You can also read 1 Corinthians 15 for some more information about the first resurrection.

Do you believe you will go to heaven when you die?

I'm looking forward to living on the earth under God's kingdom - whether that be passing through the great tribulation (Revelation 7:9-17), or being resurrected to the eart during the 1000 year reign of the greater David - Jesus Christ. (Daniel 12:13)

Muffled · Jul 21, 2021

I believe I will not return to Heaven if and when I die. I believe God will permit me to re-incarnate and select for me appropriate parents.

Muffled · Jul 21, 2021

KAT-KAT said:
I see it more as, I want little to do with the Abrahamic God these days despite trying to respect the people who worship him - and as for what the Abrahamic God thinks of me... well, I hope the feeling is mutual.

What would I do all day in heaven, anyway?

I believe the answer is simple. Jesus said: Where your heart is there will you be also.

I believe you can't do anything physical but you can envision anything as long as it is good. So the answer is that it is like dreams but without the negativity.

Muffled · Jul 21, 2021

George-ananda said:
Why do Chr-stians and non-Christians alike believe they will go to heaven when they die?

As you opened this up to non-Christians I believe the heaven-like astral plane is where we go when we die. My reason for that belief is my Vedic (Hindu) and Theosophical beliefs and from the Afterlife Evidence that includes things like Near Death Experiences that give glimpses.

It's the Biblical account as you presented it that I find rather challenging to believe.

So if astral means of the stars and plane means a solid object like a planet, then that mean going to a different planet in the Universe. I don' t think that happens very often. Through re-incarnation it can happen and I have done that but I am not sure that many hop around like me.

I believe Heaven is an astral void ie there is no matter in Heaven.

George-ananda · Jul 21, 2021

Muffled said:
So if astral means of the stars and plane means a solid object like a planet, then that mean going to a different planet in the Universe. I don' t think that happens very often. Through re-incarnation it can happen and I have done that but I am not sure that many hop around like me.

I believe Heaven is an astral void ie there is no matter in Heaven.

I'll try to explain my use of the word 'astral' from Theosophy Wiki:

The Astral Plane is a non-physical dimension of existence postulated by classical (particularly neo-Platonic), medieval, oriental and esoteric philosophies and mystery religions. This sphere is made of astral matter, a subtle form of matter which is said to be translucent and radiant.

H. P. Blavatsky defined it as the plane immediately higher to the physical in degree of subtlety.

So when alive we have an interpenetrating astral body along with a physical body. When we die, our astral body continues our life on the astral plane.

Jahia El Ti · Jul 22, 2021

Messianic Israelite said:
Do you believe you will go to heaven when you die?

When I leave your world I will be going to the new earth.

Kelly of the Phoenix · Jul 22, 2021

Messianic Israelite said:
Do you believe you will go to heaven when you die?

Ultimately I don’t care. I see the afterlife as one afterlife and it’s basically a variant of current life. Been addicted to Loki, lol.

Kelly of the Phoenix · Jul 22, 2021

Messianic Israelite said:
But another point you make. I don't consider myself a teacher. I'm just a Bible student, and trying my best to follow in Yahshua's example. If I held my tongue, I wouldn't be able to witness the truth that I have learnt, which would be wrong. After all, Yahweh has done so much for me.

Should students be trusted to have the right information until they pass the test? Jesus said that the apostles didn’t understand him so why should we listen and trust class failures?

Messianic Israelite · Jul 26, 2021

Kelly of the Phoenix said:
Should students be trusted to have the right information until they pass the test? Jesus said that the apostles didn’t understand him so why should we listen and trust class failures?

Kelly of the Phoenix. Good evening. I hope I'm not a class failure Kelly. I certainly don't consider myself to be a class failure. What is this test that you refer to? The test of life? Then no-one would have the "right information" until they died. Only then would we truly be able to assess if they passed the test or not. Yahshua's disciples didn't understand him on everything he said, it's true. Yahshua's way of thinking was on a level higher and more spiritual than that of his disciples. And most of the disciples failed on various points before they received the Holy Spirit, including not having faith that he had risen, Yahshua having to appear to them and rebuke them in person. However, Yahshua chose these disciples to be apostles, and they will be at the 12 gates guarding the New Jerusalem (Revelation 21) at the gates.

Messianic Israelite · Jul 26, 2021

Muffled said:
I believe I will not return to Heaven if and when I die. I believe God will permit me to re-incarnate and select for me appropriate parents.

Good evening Muffled. But that isn't Biblical, so in other words, you feign these ideas from your own heart. It's based on nothing but your own thoughts on the subject. Don't you know how dangerous it is to believe in lies?

The Kilted Heathen · Jul 26, 2021

Messianic Israelite said:
Don't you know how dangerous it is to believe in lies?

Bruh, what? Reincarnation has foundation in Hindu texts. A little more than "just his opinions". Who gives a [REDACTED] if it's biblical or not?

Why do Chr-stians and non-Christians alike believe they will go to heaven when they die?

Messianic Israelite

Active Member

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain

Messianic Israelite

Active Member

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain

Jeremiah Ames

Well-Known Member

nPeace

Veteran Member

Muffled

Jesus in me

Muffled

Jesus in me

Muffled

Jesus in me

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism

Jahia El Ti

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Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member

Kelly of the Phoenix

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Messianic Israelite

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Messianic Israelite

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The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR