ALL have sinned.

Shadow Wolf · Jul 18, 2021

Clara Tea said:
Then you are overdue for a night out.

I've had more than a few over the past 20 years.

Clara Tea said:
Man is made in God's image....God is a over-sexed hot headed mass murderer. Shouldn't we try to forgive God, rather than the other way around?

Even I have to say that one is a pretty bad interpretation and lacks a critical reading, as a virgin birth is a part of the story. And over-sexed? Jehovah's rules and policies regarding sex can be pretty strict, and it has played a role in developing societies that are sexually repressed. Because Jehovah is watching.

Redemptionsong · Jul 18, 2021

Shadow Wolf said:
I haven't sinned in nearly 20 years. I left it all behind when I left the church, the excessive guilt came to an end, and now sin just isn't a part of my life. It was what made that heavy clunking sound when I said "no more" and took my first step away from it.

If sin is no longer part of your life, does this mean that you have lost your moral compass?

If God says, Thou shalt not steal, do you now consider it right to steal?

Pudding · Jul 18, 2021

Redemptionsong said:
The Hebrew scriptures portray God as Holy and without defect.

Deuteronomy 32:4. 'He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.'

The Greek New Testament tells us about Jesus Christ 'Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:' [1 Peter 2:22] The book of Hebrews adds that Jesus 'was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.'

The New Testament also tells us about the Holy Spirit, which proceeds from the Father and Son. 'But when the Comforter is come, whom I [Jesus] will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:'

We have, if one is to accept the words of scripture, a God who is Holy and perfect.

Does that not make us ALL'sinners'?

If we are all sinners, then critical reasoning in the absence of repentance and faith is not going to please God! Only faith will please God. As Paul said in Romans 14:23, 'whatsoever is not of faith is sin.'

Your thoughts, please.

You believe your religion's scriptures are fact. I do not.

If you or any other different religions' members want to convince me to believe you people's respective religion's scriptures are fact, then you can start now, by provide sufficient convincing evidence to prove that the scriptures are indeed fact.

Shadow Wolf · Jul 18, 2021

Redemptionsong said:
If sin is no longer part of your life, does this mean that you have lost your moral compass?

If God says, Thou shalt not steal, do you now consider it right to steal?

No, although I understand where you are coming from. My moral compass was once calibrated with the Holy Ghost in my heart, with restraining from many things deemed sinful. But when I was set free from those shackles, with the weight of sin off my shoulders and severed from my life, I had to start considering things and having to consider and explain why things are moral and immoral. I learned how to reason beyond "because it's god's word." Such as stealing, I can explain this better in that it deprives people of property they own, and can potentially have a "ripple effect," such as stealing from a store that gives employees a profit share.
And not only did my moral compass get better, I'm actually less tempted to bad things than I was before. The Devil set me free, and then honestly he just kind of disappeared shortly after that. I did indulge in many things I had been denied before, but after getting all that out of my system stuff it's been meh.
And, as a side note, I also got way better at minding the beams in my own eye before pointing out the splinters in the eyes of others. If it's not harming anyone, I don't care and mind my own.

Redemptionsong · Jul 18, 2021

Clara Tea said:
The message of "the loving God" is that we will burn in hell for all eternity if we don't worship him. Is that free will or an ultimatum from a Mafia hit man?

I would say that this is a misunderstanding of the Biblical message.

If God is love, and his guiding Spirit leads us in the way of love, why would anyone choose to disobey it?

By turning away from love, we turn away from life. The inevitable end is death. So we are now dying. Can we prevent ourselves from dying?

God, in his love, does not want us to die, but there had to be a punishment for disobedience. Boundaries exist to keep people safe.

Can God, in his mercy, still find a way of punishing our sin whilst saving us from death? According to scripture, there is only one way. For God to make a personal sacrifice for us. God pays the price by taking the punishment (death), and allows us, the sinners, to find salvation through faith in His righteousness (Christ).

Redemptionsong · Jul 18, 2021

Shadow Wolf said:
No, although I understand where you are coming from. My moral compass was once calibrated with the Holy Ghost in my heart, with restraining from many things deemed sinful. But when I was set free from those shackles, with the weight of sin off my shoulders and severed from my life, I had to start considering things and having to consider and explain why things are moral and immoral. I learned how to reason beyond "because it's god's word." Such as stealing, I can explain this better in that it deprives people of property they own, and can potentially have a "ripple effect," such as stealing from a store that gives employees a profit share.
And not only did my moral compass get better, I'm actually less tempted to bad things than I was before. The Devil set me free, and then honestly he just kind of disappeared shortly after that. I did indulge in many things I had been denied before, but after getting all that out of my system stuff it's been meh.
And, as a side note, I also got way better at minding the beams in my own eye before pointing out the splinters in the eyes of others. If it's not harming anyone, I don't care and mind my own.

I don't hear you saying that God's commandments are wrong. I hear you saying that you have learned to think for yourself!

Shadow Wolf · Jul 18, 2021

Redemptionsong said:
I don't hear you saying that God's commandments are wrong. I hear you saying that you have learned to think for yourself!

Many of his commandments are wrong. Like thou shalt have no other gods before me, and killing apostates. Letting the Hebrews keep slaves is also wrong. And, realistically, many mothers amd fathers are not worth any respect or honor.
The killing amd stealing, that's just basic no stuff that we see everywhere and something we are just wired to have as social animals with a sense of empathy. But rape is wrong as well. And the Bible permits and allows it in some instances.

Ashoka · Jul 18, 2021

Trailblazer said:
What mess did God create?

When I said the mess he created, I was talking about the Christian view that God, who is perfect, created people who are imperfect and capable of sin, and then, blames them for sinning. Then, tells us we have a sin nature and that we inherit original sin (I realize that original sin is not a universal view, but it is a widely held one).

If the Christian God is perfect, why did he allow things to get...so out of hand?

Please understand that I am not trying to be rude, I am genuinely asking, and would like to know your view. I have my own, about God and evil, but that's for another thread I think.

blü 2 · Jul 18, 2021

Redemptionsong said:
In 1 John 3:4 it says, 'sin is the transgression of the law'. The law of Moses was about deeds, therefore, a righteous man did everything required by the law.

So it's a sin (punishable by death) to shave your beard, eh? And it's sinful to keep company with menstruating women, right? But it's not murder (or anything else) when your slave dies as the result of a beating you gave him or her unless he or she dies within 24 hours, right? And if you follow the rules, it's not sinful to sell your daughter into slavery.

And as Matthew says,

Matthew 5:18 For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.

and as Luke says,

Luke 16:17 But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than for one dot of the law to become void.

Redemptionsong said:
[After Matthew 5:19] Jesus then proceeds to explain how an inward sin of the heart is evidence of imperfection. His final words on the subject are, 'Be ye perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.'

But no one is perfect ─ not least because if you come down to detail the word has no specific meaning. How do you speak English "perfectly"?

Redemptionsong said:
From what Jesus says, 'righteousness' should be viewed as perfection. Therefore, sin is falling short of the perfection of God.

But for the reasons above, neither God nor humans can meaningfully do that.

What about my question whether it's sinful to do things Gods does in the bible? Order invasive war, massacre of populations, mass rapes, human sacrifices, murderous religious intolerance, women as property, slavery, and so on. If those are good enough for God, why aren't they good enough for us?

Trailblazer · Jul 18, 2021

Clara Tea said:
Why not please someone who doesn't exist?

Why would I bother?

Trailblazer · Jul 18, 2021

Shadow Wolf said:
It just really does not look that way. We may have a degree of will, but science is revealing more and more that our will is not free like we think. Even some of the most basic concepts of psychology, such as classical conditioning and operative conditioning, demonstrate we can even be subjected to and aligned to the will of another.

I do not believe we are free to do anything we want to, but I believe that we can make choices based upon our desires and preferences. Our desires and preferences come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. We cannot do everything we might want to do because we either don't have the ability or the opportunity or there is something else we have to do instead or because we choose to sacrifice what we want for another person.

How free we are varies with each situation we find ourselves in. However, we have the ability to make our own choices unless we are incarcerated. Otherwise, we are looking at determinism, blaming all our actions on our past experiences and our heredity and having no moral responsibility for our actions.

Deeje · Jul 18, 2021

Redemptionsong said:
Your thoughts, please.

My thoughts are that this thread belongs in the Christian DIR.....it cannot be addressed by atheists or those who do not see the Bible as the word of God. The word "sinner" is not even in their vocabulary.

Trailblazer · Jul 18, 2021

Redemptionsong said:
I have to disagree.

If God did not intervene in human affairs to bring salvation there would not be a positive end for anyone! It is God that saves, not man.

What I was saying is that God's foreknowledge is not what causes things to happen. In other words, what God knows we will do does not cause us to do it.

I never said that God never intervenes in human affairs. God intervenes by sending His Manifestations. God forbid! If God had never sent Jesus where would we all be now? I hate to even think about it. God saves by sending Manifestations such as Jesus and we are saved from our lower material natures by following the teachings of Jesus.

“…those who turned toward the Word of God and received the profusion of His bounties—were saved from this attachment and sin, obtained everlasting life, were delivered from the chains of bondage, and attained to the world of liberty. They were freed from the vices of the human world, and were blessed by the virtues of the Kingdom. This is the meaning of the words of Christ, “I gave My blood for the life of the world” 6 —that is to say, I have chosen all these troubles, these sufferings, calamities, and even the greatest martyrdom, to attain this object, the remission of sins” Some Answered Questions, p. 125

Trailblazer · Jul 18, 2021

Ashoka said:
When I said the mess he created, I was talking about the Christian view that God, who is perfect, created people who are imperfect and capable of sin, and then, blames them for sinning. Then, tells us we have a sin nature and that we inherit original sin (I realize that original sin is not a universal view, but it is a widely held one).

I do not share the Christian view that we are all born in sin. Baha'is believe we are all born good. After we are born, by our choices and ensuing behavior we start to differentiate ourselves and as we live our lives we wind up on a continuum between good and evil.

The reason we have the propensity to sin is because we have two natures, a spiritual or higher nature and a material or lower nature, and we can choose to act according to either nature.. All imperfection comes from our physical nature, our spiritual nature is purely good.

In sum, we all have free will, so we can choose to act according to one of our two natures, our spiritual or higher nature and our material or lower nature. If we choose to act according to our lower material nature we will sin. If we choose to act according to our spiritual nature, we will become more spiritual.

“In man there are two natures; his spiritual or higher nature and his material or lower nature. In one he approaches God, in the other he lives for the world alone. Signs of both these natures are to be found in men. In his material aspect he expresses untruth, cruelty and injustice; all these are the outcome of his lower nature. The attributes of his Divine nature are shown forth in love, mercy, kindness, truth and justice, one and all being expressions of his higher nature. Every good habit, every noble quality belongs to man’s spiritual nature, whereas all his imperfections and sinful actions are born of his material nature. If a man’s Divine nature dominates his human nature, we have a saint.” Paris Talks, p. 60

THE TWO NATURES IN MAN

Ashoka said:
If the Christian God is perfect, why did he allow things to get...so out of hand?

Please understand that I am not trying to be rude, I am genuinely asking, and would like to know your view. I have my own, about God and evil, but that's for another thread I think.

I do not believe that God is responsible for letting things get so out if hand. I believe that humans are responsible because they have free will to choose. Nevertheless I believe that what has happened throughout religious history was foreordained by God and it was all necessary to get up to the present age. But now that God has revealed a new religion that explains everything about God and what our purpose is on earth, people no longer have to live with those past beliefs such as original sin, satan, hell, Jesus is the only way, etc.

However, if people choose to cling to those beliefs they are fully responsible because they have free will. Moreover, these people are holding back the progress of humanity by clinging to beliefs that serve no purpose and are positively harmful to individuals and society. Moreover, these teachings are not even in the Bible but rather are man-made doctrines of the Church.

Ashoka · Jul 18, 2021

Trailblazer said:
I do not share the Christian view that we are all born in sin. Baha'is believe we are all born good. After we are born, by our choices and ensuing behavior we start to differentiate ourselves and as we live our lives we wind up on a continuum between good and evil.

The reason we have the propensity to sin is because we have two natures, a spiritual or higher nature and a material or lower nature, and we can choose to act according to either nature.. All imperfection comes from our physical nature, our spiritual nature is purely good.

In sum, we all have free will, so we can choose to act according to one of our two natures, our spiritual or higher nature and our material or lower nature. If we choose to act according to our lower material nature we will sin. If we choose to act according to our spiritual nature, we will become more spiritual.

“In man there are two natures; his spiritual or higher nature and his material or lower nature. In one he approaches God, in the other he lives for the world alone. Signs of both these natures are to be found in men. In his material aspect he expresses untruth, cruelty and injustice; all these are the outcome of his lower nature. The attributes of his Divine nature are shown forth in love, mercy, kindness, truth and justice, one and all being expressions of his higher nature. Every good habit, every noble quality belongs to man’s spiritual nature, whereas all his imperfections and sinful actions are born of his material nature. If a man’s Divine nature dominates his human nature, we have a saint.” Paris Talks, p. 60

THE TWO NATURES IN MAN

I do not believe that God is responsible for letting things get so out if hand. I believe that humans are responsible because they have free will to choose. Nevertheless I believe that what has happened throughout religious history was foreordained by God and it was all necessary to get up to the present age. But now that God has revealed a new religion that explains everything about God and what our purpose is on earth, people no longer have to live with those past beliefs such as original sin, satan, hell, Jesus is the only way, etc.

However, if people choose to cling to those beliefs they are fully responsible because they have free will. Moreover, these people are holding back the progress of humanity by clinging to beliefs that serve no purpose and are positively harmful to individuals and society. Moreover, these teachings are not even in the Bible but rather are man-made doctrines of the Church.

That's very interesting. I had not heard of the Baha'i belief on this until now. Thank you for sharing. I think growing up in a Calvinist home has made me...a little bit turned off to Christianity and its view of the world.

In Hinduism, at least, in my Sampradaya (denomination), we don't believe in intrinsic good and evil; we believe in ignorance, which is at the root cause of what we call good and evil. We also believe in free will, and that our choices have consequences (karma).

MikeF · Jul 18, 2021

Wildswanderer said:
So every action is cool with you?
I suspect you believe there are such a thing as wrong actions.
Which is the definition of sin.

And here I thought the definition of sin was a transgression of a religious or moral law, especially when deliberate.

Every action is not cool with me. Unfortunately, there are some actions that I think are not cool that other people think are perfectly acceptable, such as restriction abortion or access to contraception. I'm also not a fan of the death penalty, and even though some religious doctrine declare "Thou shalt not kill", adherents of that doctrine gustily embrace the death penalty.

Right and wrong is either dictated by mutual agreement among members of a group, or imposed on the group by a powerful minority.

Wildswanderer · Jul 18, 2021

MikeF said:
Right and wrong is either dictated by mutual agreement among members of a group, or imposed on the group by a powerful minority.

Actually it often isn't either. So we have a society where everyone does what they deem right. Which leads to chaos.

lewisnotmiller · Jul 18, 2021

Clara Tea said:
God is not perfect and loving (Noah's flood). Man is made in God's image....imperfect, warmonger.

Meh...I'm an atheist, so I see God as man-made, rather than man as God-made.
But my somewhat light-hearted post was a nod to those who think God is perfect. Lots of people who do.

Redemptionsong · Jul 19, 2021

Shadow Wolf said:
Many of his commandments are wrong. Like thou shalt have no other gods before me, and killing apostates. Letting the Hebrews keep slaves is also wrong. And, realistically, many mothers amd fathers are not worth any respect or honor.
The killing amd stealing, that's just basic no stuff that we see everywhere and something we are just wired to have as social animals with a sense of empathy. But rape is wrong as well. And the Bible permits and allows it in some instances.

[IMO]The revelation of God's will in the Bible is gradual and sequential. Before the covenant of law was established between lsrael and God, people lived by a consciousness of what was right and wrong. Most were not able to distinguish the voice of God. Abraham was an exception because he listened to God's voice and acted faithfully, and his faithfulness was accounted to him as righteousness.

We no longer live under law because the coming of the Messiah, as the Suffering Servant, has changed the covenant. The covenant is now a covenant based on faith in a mediator, not the doing of the law.

The criticisms you make of the Bible are criticisms of justice under the law, not a criticism of grace through faith in Christ. Through faith in Christ, the only commandment is to love (God and neighbour). But we cannot hope to do this without God's strength, the Holy Spirit.

Redemptionsong · Jul 19, 2021

blü 2 said:
So it's a sin (punishable by death) to shave your beard, eh? And it's sinful to keep company with menstruating women, right? But it's not murder (or anything else) when your slave dies as the result of a beating you gave him or her unless he or she dies within 24 hours, right? And if you follow the rules, it's not sinful to sell your daughter into slavery.

And as Matthew says,

Matthew 5:18 For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.

and as Luke says,

Luke 16:17 But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than for one dot of the law to become void.
But no one is perfect ─ not least because if you come down to detail the word has no specific meaning. How do you speak English "perfectly"?
But for the reasons above, neither God nor humans can meaningfully do that.

What about my question whether it's sinful to do things Gods does in the bible? Order invasive war, massacre of populations, mass rapes, human sacrifices, murderous religious intolerance, women as property, slavery, and so on. If those are good enough for God, why aren't they good enough for us?

Jesus did not claim to be an English teacher, but people did recognise him as a great teacher on the topic of God and love.

The imposition of law is intended to keep people from committing sin. The problem, as Paul explains at length, is that flesh and Spirit are at war. If one cannot overcome the lust of the flesh then the temptation to disobey the law will always exist.

It's easy to write of wars, death and destruction because these are the natural product of the flesh. The flesh finds pleasure in power, wealth and sexual gratification.

The problem is not with the law but with people and their sinful nature. Therefore, God, having first provided law, provides the Spirit by which humans can overcome the temptations of the flesh. This is why being born again of God's Spirit is so important.

ALL have sinned.

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