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Does God need excuses?

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
But as you claimed, God knew there was going to be a mess in the kitchen, yet he didn't adjust his design of people to be less messy. God created the humans to be messy in the kitchen.
No, God did not do that. God created them to be messy or unmessy, as they so choose.

All humans have two natures, and we all have free will, so we can choose to act according to one of our two natures, our spiritual or higher nature and our material or lower nature. By our choices and ensuing behavior, we differentiate ourselves, and we wind up on a continuum between good and evil.

“In man there are two natures; his spiritual or higher nature and his material or lower nature. In one he approaches God, in the other he lives for the world alone. Signs of both these natures are to be found in men. In his material aspect he expresses untruth, cruelty and injustice; all these are the outcome of his lower nature. The attributes of his Divine nature are shown forth in love, mercy, kindness, truth and justice, one and all being expressions of his higher nature. Every good habit, every noble quality belongs to man’s spiritual nature, whereas all his imperfections and sinful actions are born of his material nature. If a man’s Divine nature dominates his human nature, we have a saint.” Paris Talks, p. 60

THE TWO NATURES IN MAN
And God created some of them resistant to keeping a clean kitchen. Why? Why not make all humans stewards of a clean kitchen? Did God just want to mess with humans and create troublemakers?
No, God did not create them that way. God did not create troublemakers, troublemakers made themselves into troublemakers by choosing to make trouble.

Many people are good at cleaning up the kitchen and many aren't. Why should God make people into who they are when people can make themselves into what they want to be? In other words, why should God impose His will upon humans?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Not this garbage again. Please.

I could give you the benefit of the doubt the first time you tried use "free will" to excuse your God's misdeeds, but the mistakes of logic in this argument have been pointed out to you so many times that I'm not willing to give you that latitude any more.
What mistakes in logic have you pointed out? Why is free will an excuse? Who needs an excuse? Why do they need an excuse?

If you cannot answer these questions it will be just like every other atheist who deflects and obfuscates so as not to get egg on his face.
Any murder that happens is, by definition, one that humans weren't able to prevent.
How do you think that will hold up in a court of law?
Judge! I couldn't help myself! I had to murder my wife because I needed the insurance money and God did not stop me from murdering my wife so it is all God's fault. I am innocent and God is guilty!
C'mon gimmie a break. :rolleyes:

Any murder that happens is, by definition, one that humans were able to prevent because they have free will to choose and that is why humans are accountable for murders in courts of law.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I'm not blaming God for anything. I'm taking your claims and using them to explain what God must be. Since you claim that God created everything, and that it knew the outcomes of its creation, then God is ACCOUNTABLE and RESPONSIBLE for EVERYTHING that exists, including the bad.
Knowing what is going to happen is not what causes anything to happen.

“Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150


Judge, judge, God knew I was going to kill my wife so God is ACCOUNTABLE and RESPONSIBLE!
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
We can't just look at the good or the bad. I'm looking at it all. But I'm not ignoring the brutal elements that should never happen in a creation by a perfect God. The God either isn't perfect, or it is deliberately cruel. There shouldn't be ANY bad, apart from accidents.
That could only be the case if God took over the free will of every human and imposed His will upon every human on earth, in which case humans would just be God's puppets on a string. You cannot make this work any other way, so don't even bother to try.

Life on earth was never intended by God to be perfect, that is what heaven was created for.
You can stomp your little feeties till the cows come home but that won't change anything.
It would be in your best interest to learn these things but I cannot make you understand.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
And what made humans selfish?

Why not create humans wise and prudent?
Humans made themselves selfish by choosing to be selfish.

Humans are not created wise and prudent because that is something that humans have to learn by living life.
What do you think this life is for?

All humans have the capacity to be wise and prudent, to varying degrees.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
So, no?
Lots of words saying very little there.
Yes, we believe in miracles... I will narrow it down.

Question.—It is recorded that miracles were performed by Christ. Are the reports of these miracles really to be accepted literally, or have they another meaning? It has been proved by exact science that the essence of things does not change, and that all beings are under one universal law and organization from which they cannot deviate; and, therefore, that which is contrary to universal law is impossible.

Answer.—The Holy Manifestations are the sources of miracles and the originators of wonderful signs. For Them, any difficult and impracticable thing is possible and easy. For through a supernatural power wonders appear from Them; and by this power, which is beyond nature, They influence the world of nature. From all the Manifestations marvelous things have appeared.

Some Answered Questions, p. 100

22: MIRACLES
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
And if he wasn't raised, we are still in our sins.
It wasn't just death. Death can't save anyone.
Romans 10:9: "If you declare with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." .

Not believe in him still being dead.
Jesus is not dead. His spirit was raised as a spiritual body just as Paul said we are all going to be raised.

Do you believe what Paul said? Paul said that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, and that means they cannot exist in Heaven. When Paul said these dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever, he is referring to the spiritual world (Heaven), which will last forever. Our physical bodies will die and we will be raised (resurrected) as spiritual bodies that will be suited to go to Heaven and last forever.

1 Corinthians 15:40-54 New Living Translation

40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.

44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.

51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!

54 Then, when our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die,[c] this Scripture will be fulfilled: “Death is swallowed up in victory.[d]

Read full chapter


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Saved from what? That is what needs to be established. I believe that Jesus saved us, but not from any original sin of Adam and Eve.

Question.—In verse 22 of chapter 15 of 1 Corinthians it is written: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” What is the meaning of these words?

Answer.—Know that there are two natures in man: the physical nature and the spiritual nature. The physical nature is inherited from Adam, and the spiritual nature is inherited from the Reality of the Word of God, which is the spirituality of Christ. The physical nature is born of Adam, but the spiritual nature is born from the bounty of the Holy Spirit. The first is the source of all imperfection; the second is the source of all perfection.

The Christ sacrificed Himself so that men might be freed from the imperfections of the physical nature and might become possessed of the virtues of the spiritual nature. This spiritual nature, which came into existence through the bounty of the Divine Reality, is the union of all perfections and appears through the breath of the Holy Spirit. It is the divine perfections; it is light, spirituality, guidance, exaltation, high aspiration, justice, love, grace, kindness to all, philanthropy, the essence of life. It is the reflection of the splendor of the Sun of Reality…..

The second meaning of sacrifice is this: Christ was like a seed, and this seed sacrificed its own form so that the tree might grow and develop. Although the form of the seed was destroyed, its reality became apparent in perfect majesty and beauty in the form of a tree.

Some Answered Questions, p. 118, 121

Read more: 29: EXPLANATION OF VERSE TWENTY-TWO, CHAPTER FIFTEEN, OF THE FIRST EPISTLE OF ST. PAUL TO THE CORINTHIANS
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
Jesus is not dead. His spirit was raised as a spiritual body just as Paul said we are all going to be raised.
We will be physically raised. Paul says we will have new bodies. Just as Christ returned to life in his glorified body. It was physical as it could be touched, but he could also walk through walls and apparently teleport.
Heaven isn't our eternal home. The new heavens and the new Earth are described in detail in Revelation. In the new earth we certainly will have Bodies. We won't be floating in the clouds. The city is described as a real physical place.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
Saved from what? That is what needs to be established. I believe that Jesus saved us, but not from any original sin of Adam and Eve.
Saved from eternal damnation.

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell."
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
We will be physically raised. Paul says we will have new bodies.
Paul clearly said our new bodies will not be physical.

1 Corinthians 15:40-54 New Living Translation

40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.

44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.

51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!

54 Then, when our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die,[c] this Scripture will be fulfilled: “Death is swallowed up in victory.[d]

Read full chapter
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Heaven isn't our eternal home. The new heavens and the new Earth are described in detail in Revelation. In the new earth we certainly will have Bodies. We won't be floating in the clouds. The city is described as a real physical place.
The new Earth is where living people will live after people build the Kingdom of God on Earth.

When people die, they ascend to the spiritual world aka heaven.

There is nothing in the Bible that says that physical bodies will be raised from the dead and live forever on this Earth.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
Paul clearly said our new bodies will not be physical.

1 Corinthians 15:40-54 New Living Translation

40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.

44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.

51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!

54 Then, when our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die,[c] this Scripture will be fulfilled: “Death is swallowed up in victory.[d]

Read full chapter
So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.

50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

I see nothing about it not being a physical body. It will not be mere flesh and blood. It will be changed, but still our body.

Or in the KJV:

There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
The new Earth is where living people will live after people build the Kingdom of God on Earth.

When people die, they ascend to the spiritual world aka heaven.

There is nothing in the Bible that says that physical bodies will be raised from the dead and live forever on this Earth.
You need to read revelation. The New Jerusalem, which is heaven, comes to Earth.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Saved from eternal damnation.

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
So there you have your answer as to how you are saved, by being righteous, not by believing that Jesus was raised from the dead. Jesus said nothing about that.

You get eternal life by believing in Jesus, NOT by believing that Jesus was raised from the dead. Jesus said nothing about that.

John 3:16: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.”

1 John 5:13 “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.”
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I see nothing about it not being a physical body. It will not be mere flesh and blood. It will be changed, but still our body.
There is no such thing as a "changed" physical body. There are only two kinds of bodies, a physical body and a spiritual body.
A physical body and a spiritual body are two different kinds of bodies.

1 Corinthians 15:40-54 New Living Translation

40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.

44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

Here is exactly what happens when our physical body dies, written by a Christian. The world we will pass into when we die is the spiritual wold (heaven).

421. When the body is no longer able to perform the bodily functions in the natural world that correspond to the spirit’s thoughts and affections, which the spirit has from the spiritual world, man is said to die. This takes place when the respiration of the lungs and the beatings of the heart cease. But the man does not die; he is merely separated from the bodily part that was of use to him in the world, while the man himself continues to live. It is said that the man himself continues to live since man is not a man because of his body but because of his spirit, for it is the spirit that thinks in man, and thought with affection is what constitutes man. Evidently, then, the death of man is merely his passing from one world into another. And this is why in the Word in its internal sense “death” signifies resurrection and continuation of life. Heaven and Hell, p. 351
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
So there you have your answer as to how you are saved, by being righteous, not by believing that Jesus was raised from the dead. Jesus said nothing about that.

You get eternal life by believing in Jesus, NOT by believing that Jesus was raised from the dead. Jesus said nothing about that.

John 3:16: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.”

1 John 5:13 “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.”

Romans 1:17
For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “But the righteous man shall live by faith.”

Faith in what? Paul takes a long time to get there. He goes through the whole process of explaining that people in the Old Testament were justified by believing in the promise....that God would do what he promised to do, which was send a messiah.

And finally in Romans 4:22 That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” 23 But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, 24 but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, 25 who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

It's not optional to believe in the resurrection.
Without him being raised we would not be justified.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
You need to read revelation. The New Jerusalem, which is heaven, comes to Earth.
I know all about the New Jerusalem and it is already on Earth. It is not heaven because heaven is in the spiritual world.

“The time foreordained unto the peoples and kindreds of the earth is now come. The promises of God, as recorded in the holy Scriptures, have all been fulfilled. Out of Zion hath gone forth the Law of God, and Jerusalem, and the hills and land thereof, are filled with the glory of His Revelation. Happy is the man that pondereth in his heart that which hath been revealed in the Books of God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. Meditate upon this, O ye beloved of God, and let your ears be attentive unto His Word, so that ye may, by His grace and mercy, drink your fill from the crystal waters of constancy, and become as steadfast and immovable as the mountain in His Cause.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 12-13
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Romans 1:17
For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “But the righteous man shall live by faith.”

Faith in what? Paul takes a long time to get there. He goes through the whole process of explaining that people in the Old Testament were justified by believing in the promise....that God would do what he promised to do, which was send a messiah.

And finally in Romans 4:22 That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” 23 But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, 24 but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, 25 who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

It's not optional to believe in the resurrection.
Without him being raised we would not be justified.
Raised from the dead in a spiritual body, not in a physical body. The verse says nothing about a physical body.
 
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