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Noah's flood story, did it happen?

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
The Scandinavian countries and the Netherlands have government paying most charges for education, and generally speaking it has served them well with a relatively high percentage of their population being well educated. To let people just have to pay for all of their children's education would be tragic since lower-income families even now have a hard time making ends meet, and then there's also a significant percentage of children who were getting their only good meals at school.

It is not only children and their families who benefit from them getting a good education, it's also the society as a whole and also businesses that benefit from educated workers.

Thus, as the old African saying goes, "It takes a whole village to raise a child".
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
Strange that she would want her children to go to college considering that's a lot of what they do there - lecture impressionable children on how they should vote.
I've not heard of anything like that from either of my kids (my youngest has been taking college courses and will graduate high school with her AA as part of a state program).

Nothing is truly free - so I cannot agree with anyone promising something for free - cause they are lying.

I believe that "higher education" would be more affordable if the government kept their fingers out of it.
Other countries seem to manage to pull it off.

Getting a degree is definitely artificially expensive - but an education is free - just get a library card.
True, but a major reason for getting a college degree is to.....get the degree.

Yeah - it's nothing like when I was a kid either. Things seemed to have changed very quickly.
As liberal as I am, even I'm sometimes taken aback by the pace of change today. I like where most of it is going, but I never expected it to be so quick.

That sounds like that would have the opposite effect.

I don't think I'd ever do that even if it was something I wanted them to do.
I put a lot of trust in my kids. They've certainly earned it.

There is a difference between criticism and flat-out name-calling.

Professors are there to teach the material - not offer up their one-sided assessments of their student's personalities.
It depends I think. Sometimes your major professor can speak to the sorts of things a student will need to think about as they begin their career. But I agree professors shouldn't be giving students armchair psychological evaluations. That's not their job.

My oldest recently had an older professor in her major tell her he wasn't sure she should even be in the program....while he gave her 100% on her papers! He was pretty blunt about it. You know what my daughter did? Shrugged her shoulders and was like "Input noted", then she took the A and moved on to the next course.

I was pretty proud of her and the maturity and fortitude she showed. We talked about it and I told her that in her college time she will encounter some strange professors now and then. But that's just life, and the sooner she can learn to deal with folks like that, the better off she'll be.

Really?

You do not believe it is inappropriate for college professors to call their students closed-minded, bigoted and racist?

If I called any of my customers that at my job - I'd be fired.
That's their opinion. You said you got A's in their classes, which is the main thing you want. So what if they think you're bigoted? I doubt that was even relevant a year or so down the road.

I'm the kind of person who doesn't dwell much on what other people think of me. I figure there's 7 billion people on the planet, so it's inevitable that I will encounter some people who don't like me and think I'm a terrible person. Like I said, I think it's best to learn how to deal with that inevitability.

Which I was - I simply did not agree with them - which led to their childish little outbursts.

I knew the material - which is all they should have been concerned about - but they wanted to "say their piece" - which led me to believe that their true goal wasn't to educate me - but convert me.
Perhaps so. But so what? You heard their opinion and moved on, right?

You think my ability to learn the material is inconsequential compared to my willingness to blindly agree with everything my college professors believe?

You believe that my unwillingness to be indoctrinated means that I exist in a bubble?
Does what those professors said to you still bother you? Do you still think about it? Or did you just take it for what it was....the opinions of people who after you were done with their classes you never saw again and quickly became irrelevant in your life?

One of my major professors was an old guy who was rather obsessed with his work. He was always either teaching, doing research, or writing papers. Whenever he heard any of us students talking about going to a football game, having a party, or doing anything other than science, he would yell that we were wasting our time and would never get anywhere in biology.

But you know what? He was completely and utterly wrong. And you know how me and my fellow students handled his tirades? We'd roll our eyes and laugh because even then we knew he was wrong.

Again, I just take that sort of thing for exactly what it is...one person's opinion and nothing more.

One would hope - but until some changes are made in academia - I'll do everything in my power to discourage my children from attending.

I don't want their personalities assaulted.
That's understandable. They're your kids and you want to protect them and make sure they turn out the way you think is right.

I tend to be more about equipping them to handle criticism, teaching them how to deal with strange people, and letting them carve their own paths in life. After all, as I often say to them....it's your life, not mine, so make it what you want rather than what you think I, or anyone else, thinks it should be.

Because as far as any of us know for sure, we only get one go-round. Might as well make the best of it. :)
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
Strange that she would want her children to go to college considering that's a lot of what they do there - lecture impressionable children on how they should vote.
At Liberty University, yes, that is what they do.
At real universities, in my experience, it does not happen, at least I had never encountered it nor had others claim tell me that they had.
I suspect that most such claims are hyperbole and nonsense, dreamed up by people that consider a lack of explicit endorsement of their anachronistic right-wing beliefs to be attacks against them.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
Getting a degree is definitely artificially expensive - but an education is free - just get a library card.
Is that how you got your education?

Someone wrote on here one time that 'the self-educated suffer both from having a bad teacher and a substandard education.'

that is true - I see it every day on forums like this, where people with no background in science will read a few websites and fancy themselves able to go toe-to-toe with people who have decades of experience and a relevant higher-education background. They lose. Always, they lose. But the fact is that the 'free education' they gave themselves as you suggest robs them of the ability to understand how little they understand.
 

Fallen Prophet

Well-Known Member
At Liberty University, yes, that is what they do.
At real universities, in my experience, it does not happen, at least I had never encountered it nor had others claim tell me that they had.
I suspect that most such claims are hyperbole and nonsense, dreamed up by people that consider a lack of explicit endorsement of their anachronistic right-wing beliefs to be attacks against them.
You won't encounter it so much if you already agree with them.
Is that how you got your education?
I got my education from reading and studying - but I got my degree at a university.
Someone wrote on here one time that 'the self-educated suffer both from having a bad teacher and a substandard education.'
There's a difference between getting a degree and getting educated.

I got my degree - but I'm never done getting educated.

That is something that people forget - that we are always learning.

Having a degree doesn't necessarily mean you were educated or that you are smart.
that is true - I see it every day on forums like this, where people with no background in science will read a few websites and fancy themselves able to go toe-to-toe with people who have decades of experience and a relevant higher-education background. They lose. Always, they lose. But the fact is that the 'free education' they gave themselves as you suggest robs them of the ability to understand how little they understand.
I'm not claiming that can't be true - but the belief that it is always true is indefensible.

There is so much dogmatism and group-think in higher education and the scientific communities that I value their opinions less and less as times goes by.

That's not even mentioning the politicization of everything.
 

Fallen Prophet

Well-Known Member
Happy belated 4th!
I've not heard of anything like that from either of my kids (my youngest has been taking college courses and will graduate high school with her AA as part of a state program).
That's good to hear and would make sense if they were going to a more conservative school.

Or it could just mean that your kids agree with what is being said - so they don't think it worth mentioning.
Other countries seem to manage to pull it off.
Without massive taxes to make up for it?
True, but a major reason for getting a college degree is to.....get the degree.
Yes - but what you said was "except when something as important as education becomes artificially expensive." (Bold and italics added)

I'm making the distinction between an education and a degree - I do not consider them to be synonymous and I believe that it is dangerous to do so.

There are loads of people out there with degrees who...uh...ain't so smart and I wouldn't consider them "educated".

And the fact that the "education" has stayed pretty much the same over the years - but the price of tuition keeps going up - proves to me that what we are paying for is not an education - but a degree.
As liberal as I am, even I'm sometimes taken aback by the pace of change today. I like where most of it is going, but I never expected it to be so quick.
Yeah - I'm on the opposite end - I don't like where most of it is going.

That is what most likely accounts for our difference of opinion concerning our kids going to college and university.

I want them to meet people and learn - but I don't want the activism and proselyting - but it seems that you are okay with it - as long as it is coming from left of center at least.
I put a lot of trust in my kids. They've certainly earned it.
People tend to buy things they don't need - or even want - when someone else is flipping the bill.

And what exactly are you trusting your kids to do? Actually attend classes? Study? Pass their classes? Not change majors? Get their degree?

Because if you have any expectations - then the money you are giving them for school has "strings attached".
It depends I think. Sometimes your major professor can speak to the sorts of things a student will need to think about as they begin their career. But I agree professors shouldn't be giving students armchair psychological evaluations. That's not their job.

My oldest recently had an older professor in her major tell her he wasn't sure she should even be in the program....while he gave her 100% on her papers! He was pretty blunt about it. You know what my daughter did? Shrugged her shoulders and was like "Input noted", then she took the A and moved on to the next course.

I was pretty proud of her and the maturity and fortitude she showed. We talked about it and I told her that in her college time she will encounter some strange professors now and then. But that's just life, and the sooner she can learn to deal with folks like that, the better off she'll be.
That experience your daughter had is not at all similar to mine and I'm disappointed that you took my experience as me simply getting my feelings hurt and crying about it.

I was a quasi-fundamentalist Christian growing up in Southern California who had no qualms with sharing his beliefs.

I received my fair share of criticisms and mocking. I was used to it.

I remember I was in a debate class in college and the teacher was a man who wore a pony-tail and referred to his spouse as his "life-partner" - (so I felt like I knew where he stood on some issues).

He listed some topics of debate and asked if students wanted to share their opinions about them and take questions from other students. Kind of an informal "debate" - at least getting some of us used to forming our arguments and such.

Anyways - the topic was homosexual marriage - and out of the six or so students who shared their opinion I was the only one opposed to it and shared my reasons why.

This - of course - elicited many questions and contentions - one student in particular claimed that he was "queer" and demanded that I apologize.

When I didn't - he and others called me all sorts of names and stuff - and I tried to address their concerns - that "queer" student actually never came back to class after that.

However - throughout the entire exchange - the teacher said nothing - other than admonitions to keep things civil.

Throughout the entirety of the semester he never shared his opinion. Good teacher.

Anyways - I don't necessarily consider a college professor telling a student that they do not believe they should be in a program to be inappropriate - it depends on their motivation.

For example - if my debate professor had told any of the students who had engaged in name-calling that that was inappropriate behavior - not fit for proper debate - then that would have been an appropriate assessment in my opinion.

Or if they are claiming that the student is not grasping the material or something - then it could be warranted.

So - I'm glad that your daughter got to stick it to that professor - but I still don't find her experience relatable to mine.

It is not immature of me to consider my professors calling me close-minded, bigoted and racist to be inappropriate.

And the fact that I have seen evidence of schools across the countries getting worse and worse - such as the teaching of CRT and actual calls to violence - I see no reason to help my children go to these places.

I don't equate success and education with a degree and if you do - that's fine - but your kids may be expected to pay their pound of flesh.
That's their opinion. You said you got A's in their classes, which is the main thing you want. So what if they think you're bigoted? I doubt that was even relevant a year or so down the road.
This blows my mind.

Like I said - if I "shared my opinion" (called people names) like they did at my job - I would lose my job.

I don't know what you do for a living - but I'm sure that it would be similar for you? Calling customers or clients names?

Why do you believe that these college professors should receive preferential treatment?

And - I'm not saying you agree with this - but the professors that receive this preferential treatment aren't any of the right-leaning ones.

I just don't understand.
I'm the kind of person who doesn't dwell much on what other people think of me. I figure there's 7 billion people on the planet, so it's inevitable that I will encounter some people who don't like me and think I'm a terrible person. Like I said, I think it's best to learn how to deal with that inevitability.
Yeah again I'm disappointed.

I wasn't sharing a "woe is me" story - but sharing examples of how far academia has fallen.

I was trying to show that they aren't focused on education - but their own agenda - this massive narrative - in an attempt to reshape the country.
Perhaps so. But so what? You heard their opinion and moved on, right?
I was unaffected - save I gained the knowledge that many professors want to convert their student rather than educate them.

I'm seriously blown away that you think its okay for employees to do that.
Does what those professors said to you still bother you? Do you still think about it? Or did you just take it for what it was....the opinions of people who after you were done with their classes you never saw again and quickly became irrelevant in your life?
I would have done this if there weren't so much evidence of it getting worse.

Teachers talking about how they hate white people, all white people are racist, want Trump supporters dead, wanting to kill all the white babies, socialism is the future - stuff like that.

These aren't isolated incidents.

Maybe you agree with some of this stuff so that is why it doesn't bother you - but it bothers me.

If my kids want to go to Jones Town - I'd do everything in my power to stop them while I had authority over them.

When they become adults and still want to go to Jones Town I will do everything I could to discourage them.

And I especially would not buy them a plane ticket.

I'm not going to help them get brain-washed.
One of my major professors was an old guy who was rather obsessed with his work. He was always either teaching, doing research, or writing papers. Whenever he heard any of us students talking about going to a football game, having a party, or doing anything other than science, he would yell that we were wasting our time and would never get anywhere in biology.

But you know what? He was completely and utterly wrong. And you know how me and my fellow students handled his tirades? We'd roll our eyes and laugh because even then we knew he was wrong.

Again, I just take that sort of thing for exactly what it is...one person's opinion and nothing more.
Did he claim that you were a loser? Or stupid?

Did he make any judgment about your character - or did he simply share his opinion that certain activities were a waste of time?

You don't see a difference?
That's understandable. They're your kids and you want to protect them and make sure they turn out the way you think is right.

I tend to be more about equipping them to handle criticism, teaching them how to deal with strange people, and letting them carve their own paths in life. After all, as I often say to them....it's your life, not mine, so make it what you want rather than what you think I, or anyone else, thinks it should be.

Because as far as any of us know for sure, we only get one go-round. Might as well make the best of it. :)
I don't think you receive criticism only at college. You don't meet strange people only at university.

You are convinced that "making the best" of life needs to include getting a degree - and I disagree.

That is a relatively new position based completely on recent societal norms - norms that are rapidly changing.

We don't need to go to college or university in order to learn how to handle criticism or deal with strange people.

You don't need to go to Jones Town to "make the best of it".

Anyways - we have run far afield of the OP and we ain't gonna change each other's minds - but it was good talking to you.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
Happy belated 4th!
You too!

That's good to hear and would make sense if they were going to a more conservative school.

Or it could just mean that your kids agree with what is being said - so they don't think it worth mentioning.
Or that they never encountered a professor who said anything about them personally. Or that they did, but they were strong enough to not let it affect them. You don't seem to want to believe either is possible.

Without massive taxes to make up for it?
The data shows that it's a net gain, both for citizens and the government. It costs less overall, covers everyone, and delivers better care and outcomes. The main reason it's not been implemented here is due to ideological objections, not practical ones.

Yes - but what you said was "except when something as important as education becomes artificially expensive." (Bold and italics added)

I'm making the distinction between an education and a degree - I do not consider them to be synonymous and I believe that it is dangerous to do so.

There are loads of people out there with degrees who...uh...ain't so smart and I wouldn't consider them "educated".

And the fact that the "education" has stayed pretty much the same over the years - but the price of tuition keeps going up - proves to me that what we are paying for is not an education - but a degree.
I don't see it that way. I see it as getting a higher degree involves getting an education.

Yeah - I'm on the opposite end - I don't like where most of it is going.

That is what most likely accounts for our difference of opinion concerning our kids going to college and university.
Probably so.

I want them to meet people and learn - but I don't want the activism and proselyting - but it seems that you are okay with it - as long as it is coming from left of center at least.
Don't make such assumptions. Like I said, we live in a very conservative part of our state and my kids went to a very conservative rural school, where teachers and other staff were openly racist and preached Christianity to the students on a regular basis. We didn't expect that when we moved there, and it really didn't become a problem until they got to high school, but thankfully they'd already been prepared to deal with it.

People tend to buy things they don't need - or even want - when someone else is flipping the bill.

And what exactly are you trusting your kids to do? Actually attend classes? Study? Pass their classes? Not change majors? Get their degree?

Because if you have any expectations - then the money you are giving them for school has "strings attached".
Well yeah, if they don't go to class or pass them they will be out of school pretty quickly and as a result won't need the money we've set aside for their college. Duh.

That experience your daughter had is not at all similar to mine and I'm disappointed that you took my experience as me simply getting my feelings hurt and crying about it.

I was a quasi-fundamentalist Christian growing up in Southern California who had no qualms with sharing his beliefs.

I received my fair share of criticisms and mocking. I was used to it.

I remember I was in a debate class in college and the teacher was a man who wore a pony-tail and referred to his spouse as his "life-partner" - (so I felt like I knew where he stood on some issues).

He listed some topics of debate and asked if students wanted to share their opinions about them and take questions from other students. Kind of an informal "debate" - at least getting some of us used to forming our arguments and such.

Anyways - the topic was homosexual marriage - and out of the six or so students who shared their opinion I was the only one opposed to it and shared my reasons why.

This - of course - elicited many questions and contentions - one student in particular claimed that he was "queer" and demanded that I apologize.

When I didn't - he and others called me all sorts of names and stuff - and I tried to address their concerns - that "queer" student actually never came back to class after that.

However - throughout the entire exchange - the teacher said nothing - other than admonitions to keep things civil.

Throughout the entirety of the semester he never shared his opinion. Good teacher.

Anyways - I don't necessarily consider a college professor telling a student that they do not believe they should be in a program to be inappropriate - it depends on their motivation.

For example - if my debate professor had told any of the students who had engaged in name-calling that that was inappropriate behavior - not fit for proper debate - then that would have been an appropriate assessment in my opinion.

Or if they are claiming that the student is not grasping the material or something - then it could be warranted.

So - I'm glad that your daughter got to stick it to that professor - but I still don't find her experience relatable to mine.

It is not immature of me to consider my professors calling me close-minded, bigoted and racist to be inappropriate.

And the fact that I have seen evidence of schools across the countries getting worse and worse - such as the teaching of CRT and actual calls to violence - I see no reason to help my children go to these places.

I don't equate success and education with a degree and if you do - that's fine - but your kids may be expected to pay their pound of flesh.

This blows my mind.

Like I said - if I "shared my opinion" (called people names) like they did at my job - I would lose my job.

I don't know what you do for a living - but I'm sure that it would be similar for you? Calling customers or clients names?

Why do you believe that these college professors should receive preferential treatment?

And - I'm not saying you agree with this - but the professors that receive this preferential treatment aren't any of the right-leaning ones.

I just don't understand.

Yeah again I'm disappointed.

I wasn't sharing a "woe is me" story - but sharing examples of how far academia has fallen.

I was trying to show that they aren't focused on education - but their own agenda - this massive narrative - in an attempt to reshape the country.

I was unaffected - save I gained the knowledge that many professors want to convert their student rather than educate them.

I'm seriously blown away that you think its okay for employees to do that.

I would have done this if there weren't so much evidence of it getting worse.

Teachers talking about how they hate white people, all white people are racist, want Trump supporters dead, wanting to kill all the white babies, socialism is the future - stuff like that.

These aren't isolated incidents.

Maybe you agree with some of this stuff so that is why it doesn't bother you - but it bothers me.

If my kids want to go to Jones Town - I'd do everything in my power to stop them while I had authority over them.

When they become adults and still want to go to Jones Town I will do everything I could to discourage them.

And I especially would not buy them a plane ticket.

I'm not going to help them get brain-washed.
From what I see, it looks like your experience with those one or two professors was indeed a bit traumatic for you. From those incidents, you've created a narrative where every college and every professor is exactly like the ones you had, and if you send your kids to any college they'll just be brainwashed and will turn their backs on you and everything you believe in.

IOW, those incidents still affect you today and are playing a role in decisions you make about how you raise your kids.

Did he claim that you were a loser? Or stupid?

Did he make any judgment about your character - or did he simply share his opinion that certain activities were a waste of time?
All the time, like every week. But unlike you, I didn't translate that into "this is indicative of every college and professor in the country" and I didn't allow it to affect anything I did or decisions I made later on.

You are convinced that "making the best" of life needs to include getting a degree - and I disagree.
Not at all....another mistaken assumption on your part.

That is a relatively new position based completely on recent societal norms - norms that are rapidly changing.

We don't need to go to college or university in order to learn how to handle criticism or deal with strange people.

You don't need to go to Jones Town to "make the best of it".

Anyways - we have run far afield of the OP and we ain't gonna change each other's minds - but it was good talking to you.
You too.

If you're interested, there's something else I wouldn't mind discussing with you. But if you think our interactions have run their course, that's okay too.
 

Sand Dancer

Crazy Cat Lady
"Noah's flood story, did it happen?"


Greetings

The biblical story was not the original, but the previous stories came from lands that had a river that flooded regularly, so it's natural for the theme to be important. Israel does not have that. The Bible writers liked to take previous stories, change the names and pretend it was theirs to begin with. Naughty, naughty.
 

SA Huguenot

Well-Known Member
It is ringwoodite, not woodite. See Ringwoodite - Wikipedia .
TNX for the assistance.
What do you say about the huge reservoirs of water in the interior of the Earth?
Scientists were astounded to find such water, because the 'Water arrived by meteorites - Theory' went bust with this observed science.
Which proves the point that the Earth had a wet beginning, and not a Hadean - Hellish genesis.

Conclusion,
Laplace was wrong, and Kant was correct!
Oh, or shall I say, Kant's Nebular theory from Genesis was correct!
The thorn in the atheists' flesh, Genesis....
 

Fallen Prophet

Well-Known Member
Or that they never encountered a professor who said anything about them personally.
Oh - I wasn't saying that - I was talking about the politicization of the classroom.

Remember how you claimed that your wife likes her church because they don't try to lecture people about how to vote - which led me to make my comment about that's what they do to impressionable kids at college - to which you replied that you hadn't heard anything from your kids about any such attempts.

That's why I said you might not have heard about it because they ended up agreeing with whoever was trying to convert them.

That was not a comment about professors saying inappropriate things.
Or that they did, but they were strong enough to not let it affect them.
No professor should be calling any of their students names.

It does not matter if the student is weak or strong - it is inappropriate.
You don't seem to want to believe either is possible.
What I don't believe is that there are any students at college or university today who is not being targeted for conversion - either to the right or the left.

So - if you're child is more right-leaning - they may not think being approached by a Trump supporter is anything worth mentioning.

Or if you're child is more left-leaning - they may not think being approached by a Biden supported is anything worth mentioning.

I was not affected by what those professors said - so I don't know why you believe I cannot consider the same possibility for your children.
The data shows that it's a net gain, both for citizens and the government. It costs less overall, covers everyone, and delivers better care and outcomes. The main reason it's not been implemented here is due to ideological objections, not practical ones.
What country are we talking about? Is it Narnia or Wonderland? :p
I don't see it that way. I see it as getting a higher degree involves getting an education.
Yeah - I figured as much. And I just cannot agree.
Don't make such assumptions. Like I said, we live in a very conservative part of our state and my kids went to a very conservative rural school, where teachers and other staff were openly racist and preached Christianity to the students on a regular basis. We didn't expect that when we moved there, and it really didn't become a problem until they got to high school, but thankfully they'd already been prepared to deal with it.
But you said you were liberal and you liked where things were heading.

And when you add in your views on Christian fundamentalism - I didn't think it was a stretch that you would be okay with "left of center" activism and proselytization.

Where did you move to?

When I told friend and family that we were moving from Southern California to Indiana I was surprised by the number of people who expressed their concerns that we would be met with hate and racism (my wife is not Caucasian) - but nothing like that has happened at all since we have gotten here.

The only thing I would complain about is the fireworks - all my neighbors went gung-ho on the fireworks the entire week before the 4th.

I mean - I like fireworks sure - but only when I know where they are and when they are going to go bang - not all the time when I'm not expecting them!
Well yeah, if they don't go to class or pass them they will be out of school pretty quickly and as a result won't need the money we've set aside for their college. Duh.
So - there were "strings attached" to that money then?

And - in this scenario - wouldn't you have already given your money to the school - and therefore have lost it?

Strings attached to the money. No graduation. No more money.

I'd rather they work hard for their money - therefore making it more valuable to them (because it also represents the time and effort it took to make it) - so it would be less likely for them to blow it on things they don't actually want or need.

I say that - but I did spend my money on college - which isn't what a wanted and time has proven it wasn't what I needed.

But when you are stuck between the expectations of your loving father and super-hot future wife - what's a guy to do?
From what I see, it looks like your experience with those one or two professors was indeed a bit traumatic for you. From those incidents, you've created a narrative where every college and every professor is exactly like the ones you had, and if you send your kids to any college they'll just be brainwashed and will turn their backs on you and everything you believe in.
Whoa - that's what you got out of that?

Did you miss the part where I talked about my debate teacher - who I thought was good because he never shared his opinions with us?

I had a philosophy professor who did the same thing - good teacher.

No - I clearly stated that I felt that those two professors wanted to convert me - not educate me - but I didn't say that all my professors were like that.

I just thought that they were d*cks.

My views on my children going to college have developed very recently - pretty much soon after Trump won the election - because a huge portion of the chaos that ensued was spawned at our colleges and universities.

I've been mentioning how much worse and worse it has been getting - I've seen the stories and videos - and the influence that these "educators" have on our impressionable youth is terrifying.

Not to mention how expensive it is for what? Our children are getting dumber - it's all a scam!

All of the reasons I have been sharing for why I don't want my children to go has to do with the issues of today - not from when I went.

I often imagined what I would tell my children when they prepared to go off to school. I was going to tell them to learn from their teachers - but not to idolize them or think of them as role models - their job is to teach - that's it - and they should stick up for themselves if one of their teachers acts inappropriately - like I did.

Also - if what they are taught causes them any confusion religion-wise - share everything that they learned with me.

But - unless there are some changes made in academia - I don't know if I'll need to say any of this stuff to them - because they will hopefully go to a trade school.
IOW, those incidents still affect you today and are playing a role in decisions you make about how you raise your kids.
Nope - if you re-read my posts - you will notice that I have mentioned many reasons for why I believe the way I do - and all of them have to do with issues had in academia - and the country - today.

I think the only reason you are fixated on the experiences I shared was because I made a big deal about you not thinking what they said was inappropriate.

It was - but it didn't affect me personally - it just convinced me that they weren't interested in educating me - but indoctrinating me - and that they were d*cks.

And it has gotten so much worse today. It's like you can't even be a professor in the US today without calling a student racist at least once a day.

I joke - but not really.
All the time, like every week. But unlike you, I didn't translate that into "this is indicative of every college and professor in the country" and I didn't allow it to affect anything I did or decisions I made later on.
What I said was,

"I knew the material - which is all they should have been concerned about - but they wanted to "say their piece" - which led me to believe that their true goal wasn't to educate me - but convert me."

'I was unaffected - save I gained the knowledge that many professors want to convert their student rather than educate them."

How did you interpret "this is indicative of every college and professor in the country" from that?

And immediately after I shared these experiences I had I said to you,

"Hope your kids are going to better places. More welcoming and tolerant."

My comment was about those particular professors - not all of them - and I even mentioned having a good teacher.

And I obviously believe that there are still good schools in our country because I hoped your kids would go to one of them.

I have been saying things like,

"And the fact that I have seen evidence of schools across the countries getting worse and worse - such as the teaching of CRT and actual calls to violence - I see no reason to help my children go to these places."

"It makes no sense to me for anyone to start out their adult life in debt with a huge likelihood that they won't even get a job in the field in which they studied.

Couple that with all the nonsense on campuses today with "safe spaces", violations of freedom of speech and the conscious efforts of leftist teachers to teach their agenda - rather than the curriculum - no thanks."

"I would have done this if there weren't so much evidence of it getting worse.

Teachers talking about how they hate white people, all white people are racist, want Trump supporters dead, wanting to kill all the white babies, socialism is the future - stuff like that.

These aren't isolated incidents."

I've given this more thought than , "Wah! Someone said something I didn't like and I'm going to hold a generational grudge against their profession!"

You became fixated on my personal experience - not me - I got loads of reasons to not want my kids going on any of these campuses.
Not at all....another mistaken assumption on your part.
You don't remember implying this after claiming that I was a bad parent who wasn't teaching my children how to deal with criticism or strange people - and how rather than allowing them to live their own lives I was trying to relive my own grudges and lack of self-esteem through them?

Cause how could any rational or sane person have actual reasons for not wanting their children to go to college a.k.a "making the best of life"?
If you're interested, there's something else I wouldn't mind discussing with you. But if you think our interactions have run their course, that's okay too.
Go for it. I'll try to be brief - but no promises.
 
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Astrophile

Active Member
TNX for the assistance.
What do you say about the huge reservoirs of water in the interior of the Earth?
Scientists were astounded to find such water, because the 'Water arrived by meteorites - Theory' went bust with this observed science.
Which proves the point that the Earth had a wet beginning, and not a Hadean - Hellish genesis.

They are very interesting from a scientific point of view, but they have no connection with the Genesis stories of either the creation or the flood. To be strictly accurate, there are no 'reservoirs of water' in the Earth's interior; there are huge quantities of a hydrated mineral (ringwoodite) which would be a source of water if it were erupted at the Earth's surface.
 

GardenLady

Active Member
Teachers talking about how they hate white people, all white people are racist, want Trump supporters dead, wanting to kill all the white babies, socialism is the future - stuff like that.
.

Do you have actual evidence of faculty teaching this? Or is this just hysterical hyperbole from someone who thinks we should only be teaching whitewashed American Exceptionalism that leaves out the treatment of Native Americans, African Americans, etc.?
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
Oh - I wasn't saying that - I was talking about the politicization of the classroom.

Remember how you claimed that your wife likes her church because they don't try to lecture people about how to vote - which led me to make my comment about that's what they do to impressionable kids at college - to which you replied that you hadn't heard anything from your kids about any such attempts.

That's why I said you might not have heard about it because they ended up agreeing with whoever was trying to convert them.

That was not a comment about professors saying inappropriate things.
Since my last post to you, I asked both my kids if they'd ever had a professor tell them how to vote. The both said they hadn't. I asked them if they ever had a professor talk politics, and they both said they had, but it was part of the course and the professors pretty much just facilitated the discussions (i.e., didn't take sides). I asked if any professors had tried to influence any students to any political view and they said they'd never seen that happen.

Then one of my kid's friends was over for a few hours and I asked her the same thing. She had basically the same answers.

No professor should be calling any of their students names.

It does not matter if the student is weak or strong - it is inappropriate.
I agree.

What I don't believe is that there are any students at college or university today who is not being targeted for conversion - either to the right or the left.

So - if you're child is more right-leaning - they may not think being approached by a Trump supporter is anything worth mentioning.

Or if you're child is more left-leaning - they may not think being approached by a Biden supported is anything worth mentioning.
Can you restate that first part without the triple negative? I keep reading it as you saying you believe every student is "being targeted for conversion", but I want to make sure before I reply.

I was not affected by what those professors said - so I don't know why you believe I cannot consider the same possibility for your children.
Okay, thanks for clarifying.

What country are we talking about? Is it Narnia or Wonderland? :p
The Scandinavian countries are good examples.

But you said you were liberal and you liked where things were heading.
Yes, in the country overall.

And when you add in your views on Christian fundamentalism - I didn't think it was a stretch that you would be okay with "left of center" activism and proselytization.

Where did you move to?

When I told friend and family that we were moving from Southern California to Indiana I was surprised by the number of people who expressed their concerns that we would be met with hate and racism (my wife is not Caucasian) - but nothing like that has happened at all since we have gotten here.

The only thing I would complain about is the fireworks - all my neighbors went gung-ho on the fireworks the entire week before the 4th.

I mean - I like fireworks sure - but only when I know where they are and when they are going to go bang - not all the time when I'm not expecting them!
No, I'm not okay with any sort of "activism and proselytization" in public schools, be it from the right or the left.

We moved to the inland northwest US, and while I knew going in it was a conservative area, I didn't expect the high school to be as bad as it was. It was (and still is) considered a very good school by the locals, but in hindsight I wouldn't recommend it to anyone, especially if they're non-white and non-Christian.

LOL about the fireworks. We can't have 'em out here this year (or most years lately)...too much fire risk.

So - there were "strings attached" to that money then?

And - in this scenario - wouldn't you have already given your money to the school - and therefore have lost it?

Strings attached to the money. No graduation. No more money.
LOL....well I suppose if you consider "this money is for college" to be "strings attached"....okay then, there was one string. :rolleyes:

I'd rather they work hard for their money - therefore making it more valuable to them (because it also represents the time and effort it took to make it) - so it would be less likely for them to blow it on things they don't actually want or need.

I say that - but I did spend my money on college - which isn't what a wanted and time has proven it wasn't what I needed.

But when you are stuck between the expectations of your loving father and super-hot future wife - what's a guy to do?
Like I said, both my kids worked quite hard to get scholarships, which helped a lot. And if either of them didn't want to go to college or felt they didn't need to, that'd be okay too. Like I said, it's their life, not mine, so they can do what they want with it.

Now that they're both adults, my role is to guide and advise them, not micro-manage them.

Whoa - that's what you got out of that?

Did you miss the part where I talked about my debate teacher - who I thought was good because he never shared his opinions with us?

I had a philosophy professor who did the same thing - good teacher.

No - I clearly stated that I felt that those two professors wanted to convert me - not educate me - but I didn't say that all my professors were like that.

I just thought that they were d*cks.
That's interesting, as I'll explain in a bit.

My views on my children going to college have developed very recently - pretty much soon after Trump won the election - because a huge portion of the chaos that ensued was spawned at our colleges and universities.

I've been mentioning how much worse and worse it has been getting - I've seen the stories and videos - and the influence that these "educators" have on our impressionable youth is terrifying.

Not to mention how expensive it is for what? Our children are getting dumber - it's all a scam!

All of the reasons I have been sharing for why I don't want my children to go has to do with the issues of today - not from when I went.

I often imagined what I would tell my children when they prepared to go off to school. I was going to tell them to learn from their teachers - but not to idolize them or think of them as role models - their job is to teach - that's it - and they should stick up for themselves if one of their teachers acts inappropriately - like I did.

Also - if what they are taught causes them any confusion religion-wise - share everything that they learned with me.

But - unless there are some changes made in academia - I don't know if I'll need to say any of this stuff to them - because they will hopefully go to a trade school.
So where do you get this information about what goes on in college classrooms?

Nope - if you re-read my posts - you will notice that I have mentioned many reasons for why I believe the way I do - and all of them have to do with issues had in academia - and the country - today.
Yeah, that's why I'm wondering where you get your information about colleges from.

I think the only reason you are fixated on the experiences I shared was because I made a big deal about you not thinking what they said was inappropriate.
If I recall correctly, I didn't say it wasn't inappropriate (because I don't remember you sharing exactly what they said, or what you said to prompt it); rather I said that it was just the words of one or two people who weren't really relevant.

It was - but it didn't affect me personally - it just convinced me that they weren't interested in educating me - but indoctrinating me - and that they were d*cks.

And it has gotten so much worse today. It's like you can't even be a professor in the US today without calling a student racist at least once a day.
That's what I'm wondering.....how do you know it's gotten worse?

What I said was,

"I knew the material - which is all they should have been concerned about - but they wanted to "say their piece" - which led me to believe that their true goal wasn't to educate me - but convert me."

'I was unaffected - save I gained the knowledge that many professors want to convert their student rather than educate them."

How did you interpret "this is indicative of every college and professor in the country" from that?
Okay, maybe you didn't translate that into every professor being like that, but you certainly translated that into "many professors" being like that. My question is....why?

I have been saying things like,

"And the fact that I have seen evidence of schools across the countries getting worse and worse - such as the teaching of CRT and actual calls to violence - I see no reason to help my children go to these places."

"It makes no sense to me for anyone to start out their adult life in debt with a huge likelihood that they won't even get a job in the field in which they studied.

Couple that with all the nonsense on campuses today with "safe spaces", violations of freedom of speech and the conscious efforts of leftist teachers to teach their agenda - rather than the curriculum - no thanks."

"I would have done this if there weren't so much evidence of it getting worse.

Teachers talking about how they hate white people, all white people are racist, want Trump supporters dead, wanting to kill all the white babies, socialism is the future - stuff like that.

These aren't isolated incidents."

I've given this more thought than , "Wah! Someone said something I didn't like and I'm going to hold a generational grudge against their profession!"

You became fixated on my personal experience - not me - I got loads of reasons to not want my kids going on any of these campuses.

You don't remember implying this after claiming that I was a bad parent who wasn't teaching my children how to deal with criticism or strange people - and how rather than allowing them to live their own lives I was trying to relive my own grudges and lack of self-esteem through them?

Cause how could any rational or sane person have actual reasons for not wanting their children to go to college a.k.a "making the best of life"?

Go for it. I'll try to be brief - but no promises.
Next post.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
continued....

So this all ties into what I wanted to ask you about. Honestly, your posts strike me as pretty consistent with conversations I've had with other conservative Christians lately, in that you come across as a bit angry and frustrated, especially at higher education. I frequent conservative media sites, as well as conservative Christian media (websites and radio mostly), and I see the same thing.....a lot of anxiety over recent changes and where the country is headed, especially when it comes to the younger generations. And of course there has to be a boogeyman to blame for it all, and again your posts seem very consistent with what I hear from conservative Christian media....it's mostly because kids are going to colleges and being brainwashed by Marxist liberal professors.

I've called in to a few of these radio shows and each time I ask the same thing.....when was the last time you set foot in a college classroom? Each time the answer is effectively the same....they haven't. So if I get the chance (some cut me off), I ask how they know so much about what goes on in college classrooms, if they've not actually been in one (or haven't been in one in a very long time)? Again, the answer is the same....reports from conservative media.

As I mentioned, I go out of my way to pay attention to conservative media, so I've seen many of these horror stories about what some professor said, or what some student group is demanding, etc. But if you actually look at those stories in context, even if they're being reported accurately, they represent a teeny, tiny fraction of all the colleges in the country. Yet they're presented as if they're part of some nationwide epidemic!

Have you ever looked at it that way? Have you ever wondered if some media is deliberately pushing your buttons to gin up outrage, which gets them more clicks/views and revenue?

Also, I've noticed since I was a kid back in the 80's that conservative Christian leaders were discouraging their followers from sending their kids to college, and that narrative has persisted through to today. Well, if enough conservatives and Christians heed that advice, what will be the result of them self-deporting from higher education? It seems pretty obvious to me that the colleges would become less conservative and less Christian, right?

You see the disconnect there? Isn't that basically a self-fulfilling prophecy of sorts?

Finally, I have to go back to the study I posted about a while ago and you had strong objections to, where the researcher looked at the talking point (typically among conservatives) that the reason so many conservative kids come out of college questioning their faith and/or conservatism is because of the specific classes they take, and found that it's not the specific classes as much as it's them getting better at critical thinking.

From my perspective, much of what I see from the right, and especially the Christian right, is denial of a lot of reality and creation of alternate versions of reality. So when these kids get to college, they find out that evolution isn't a hoax/conspiracy, global warming really is happening, our country has a very racist past and still has problems with racism today, and they meet actual LGBTQs and discover that they're not diseased, depraved predators lurking in bathrooms seeking to "convert" children, and are instead pretty much just regular people.

IOW, these kids get fed this alternate reality and when they get to college they find out it isn't true (or is wildly exaggerated), which causes some of them to question what they've been told and taught their whole lives. So the problem isn't so much with the colleges or professors, it's with conservatism creating and living in a version of reality that.....well.....isn't real.

Does that seem at all plausible to you?
 

Fallen Prophet

Well-Known Member
.

Do you have actual evidence of faculty teaching this? Or is this just hysterical hyperbole from someone who thinks we should only be teaching whitewashed American Exceptionalism that leaves out the treatment of Native Americans, African Americans, etc.?
Do you have actual evidence of American schools "teaching whitewashed American Exceptionalism that leaves out the treatment of Native Americans, African Americans, etc." or is that just hyperbole?
 

GardenLady

Active Member
Deflection. You asserted something that you claim is happening. Can you cite actual evidence of teachers promoting the killing of white babies? Any objection to teaching the truth if racism in America is whitewash.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Strange that she would want her children to go to college considering that's a lot of what they do there - lecture impressionable children on how they should vote.

Strange.

I have been been to a number of different colleges, and not a single course I took where lecturers and teachers talked about politics, let alone how to vote. None of them.

But then again, I have never taken courses involving politics.

This is just simple scare-mongering that you think that's all colleges or universities do.
 

Fallen Prophet

Well-Known Member
Strange.

I have been been to a number of different colleges, and not a single course I took where lecturers and teachers talked about politics, let alone how to vote. None of them.

But then again, I have never taken courses involving politics.

This is just simple scare-mongering that you think that's all colleges or universities do.
Wow - anecdotal evidence vs. anecdotal evidence - who will win?
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Wow - anecdotal evidence vs. anecdotal evidence - who will win?
Anecdotal evidence, indeed.

But it is far better than conspiracy theory that you believe the universities and colleges are involved in.

The very notion that teachers, professors and lecturers in every universities are influencing how students who to vote, is utterly absurd.

Btw, I have only attended colleges in Australia, so are you including Australian universities in your conspiracy?
 
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