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Was Jesus Perfect

ecco

Veteran Member
The Genesis prophecy of the woman's seed is the first that makes a clear separation between God's righteous seed and the seed of sin (Satan's). In Galatians, Paul explains that the righteous seed of the woman (Mary) came at God's appointed time, when Jesus was born.

This "Genesis prophecy"?

Genesis 3
15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Do you not understand that your god was putting enmity between the seed of the snake, to whom he was talking, and the woman, Eve? The writer obviously didn't like snakes.

How can you consider Galatians to be prophecy what it is written after the fact? A prophecy predicts. Galatians explains past events.

The Nostradamus example I gave was much more accurate. It was written before the actual death occurred. It predicted the death of a more senior at the hands of a more junior and stated the cause of the death. His vague rambling is far better as prophecy than your example

Your example is too bad to be even laughable.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
To the sceptic, one very difficult prophecy to explain away is the foretelling of Christ's birth in Bethlehem, a relatively small town in Judea. The prophecy was made by Micah [5:2] roughly 700 years before the event.

How do you explain such a prophecy? Jesus could not have manufactured his own birth, and two Gospels, Matthew and Luke, give the story. Bethlehem was also the birthplace of Jesse [1 Samuel 16], the father of David, whose name was forever linked to the town. It was here that the son of David, the Messiah, was to be born.


Again, not a prophecy.

Nothing was contemporaneously written about the birthplace of Jesus. The authors of the Gospels used the Micah reference to lend credence to the "birth of the Hebrew Messiah" concept.

Old Testament messianic prophecies quoted in the New Testament - Wikipedia
The New Testament frequently cites Jewish scripture to support the claim of the Early Christians that Jesus was the promised Jewish Messiah, but few of these citations are actual predictions in their original context.[1] The majority of these quotations and references are taken from the Book of Isaiah, but they range over the entire corpus of Jewish writings. Orthodox Jews do not regard any of these as having been fulfilled by Jesus, and in some cases do not regard them as messianic prophecies at all. Old Testament prophecies about Jesus are either not thought to be prophecies by critical scholars (the verses make no claim of predicting anything) or do not explicitly refer to the Messiah.[2][3][4][5] Historical criticism is unable to argue for the fulfillment of prophecy or that Jesus was indeed the Messiah because he fulfilled messianic prophecies—as historical criticism has no way to "construct such an argument" within that academic method.[6]
Whether the original story came from Q or the authors of "Matthew" and "Luke" is immaterial.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
False prophets and diviners can predict events, but this does not guarantee that the prophecy is of God. If you read Acts 16:16-18, you'll read about a woman whose soothsaying brought 'much gain' but Paul cast out the evil spirit although it was telling the truth.
So far you haven't shown any prophecy.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
So far you haven't shown any prophecy.
All the words of God are defined as 'prophecy'. Prophets either 'forthtell' or 'foretell', dependent on context.

The overall purpose behind God's word in the Bible is to unveil His will for the timespan of the present heaven and earth. In the first book of the Bible, Genesis, we have the creation of heaven and earth; and in Revelation, the last book, we are told of its end and the creation of a 'new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea'. [Rev 21:1]. In other words, the prophecy encapsulated within the covers of the Bible is a message of sin and redemption spanning the history of our earth. It's a spiritual revelation of God's intentions and is set within a specific time frame.

How you can possibly compare the occultic writings of Nostradamus with the Bible is beyond me! Nostradamus is seeking information from the spirit world. By contrast, God chooses his faithful prophets, and they deliver the message that He speaks. Whilst Nostradamus is attempting to steal what is not his to know, the other, the true prophet, is delivering a message God wants sinful men to understand.


The problem that you have in claiming that the nativity stories in Matthew and Luke are concocted is that there is no intelligible alternative.

Do you believe that the Hebrew scriptures are prophecy? Why refer to them as authoritative if you don't believe them to be of God?
 

idea

Question Everything
There's no such thing as perfect or imperfect. They're just concepts that don't actually exist.

I think there are good things to aspire to - aspire to be healthy through exercise and diet. Aspire to have wisdom and knowledge through study of diverse fields and experiences. Aspire to improve talents - paint, play musical instruments, write poetry. Those in the Olympics who have tried to reach perfection, or those amazing musicians who spend hours trying to reach it, the amazing authors like William Shakespeare, or scientists and engineers who study and work to create amazing buildings, cars, energy.

There is no perfect building, there is no perfect song or painting, no perfect book, there is no perfect athlete - but there are people who try to achieve perfection in various different areas, and these people are inspiring and actually do make the world a better place.

When it comes to people who attempt to achieve a perfect love -Mahatma Gandhi, Martin Luther King Jr., Mother Teresa.

I'm not impressed with supposed "prophecies", I'm not impressed with words, I'm impressed by people who actually went out and did things, saved children, fed people, taught people, built things for people, inspired people through their dedication to achieving something great.
 
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ecco

Veteran Member
All the words of God are defined as 'prophecy'. Prophets either 'forthtell' or 'foretell', dependent on context.
Wow. That is one of the best cop-outs yet. You said you could show specific and accurate prophecies. You mocked the prediction of Nostradanums that I posted. You listed dozens of verses that you claimed were all specific prophecies. I chose the first one and showed it wasn't prophetic in any sense of the word. Then you tried some other nonsense.

Now, you say "All the words of God are defined as 'prophecy'". What utter nonsense. What an utter waste of time. But that is the Christian way, isn't it? Brag, boast, proselytize, and when push comes to shove - bail-out.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
How you can possibly compare the occultic writings of Nostradamus with the Bible is beyond me! Nostradamus is seeking information from the spirit world. By contrast, God chooses his faithful prophets, and they deliver the message that He speaks.
More Christian nonsensical proselytizing.

The Nostradamus quatrain that I posted is far more accurate than anything you could pull from the bible.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
More Christian nonsensical proselytizing.

The Nostradamus quatrain that I posted is far more accurate than anything you could pull from the bible.

Well, let's look a little closer at the one specific prophecy l did ask you to explain. Micah 5:2 happens to be important because it refers to the Messiah's birth in Bethlehem. This is not just a Christian claim, it also applies to Jewish beliefs about the Messiah (who has not, as yet, appeared).

Micah 5:2. 'But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.'

What adds further weight to this prophecy is that it indicates that the future ruler of Israel is not an ordinary man. His 'goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting'.

Since only God has existed 'from everlasting', this prophecy appears to point to a ruler sent from God, who is also born in Bethlehem.

The predictions of Nostradamus, whether true or not, cannot be said to have affected humanity, or changed history, in any significant way. The Bible has clearly had a huge impact on the world, and Jesus Christ has influenced the lives of millions of people.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Well, let's look a little closer at the one specific prophecy l did ask you to explain. Micah 5:2 happens to be important because it refers to the Messiah's birth in Bethlehem. This is not just a Christian claim, it also applies to Jewish beliefs about the Messiah (who has not, as yet, appeared).

I already addressed this.

  1. A Hebrew writer stated that a Messiah would be born in Bethlehem.
  2. After Jesus was born, two writers asserted Jesus was born in Bethlehem.

If the Hebrew writer had "predicted" that a Messiah would be born in Jerusalem, the NT writers would have asserted that Jesus was born in Jerusalem.

You do know that the early Christian writers were trying to court Hebrews to convert to the new Christianity. There are many instances where Jesus allegedly says things like: "These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses,"

They even went so far as to incorporate the Hebrew scripture into their scripture giving the OT and the NT.

How many of the converts to Christianity were from among the Hebrews is hard to say. But there are many Jews in the world today.



The OT would have been eliminated entirely if Marcion had prevailed.
Christianity might have died out altogether if not for Constantine.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
The predictions of Nostradamus, whether true or not, cannot be said to have affected humanity
I quoted one of Nastradamous's quatrains to show that it was more specific and accurate than anything from the Bible.

Personally, I think Nostradamus's predictions are nonsense. But they are better nonsense than the "prophecies" of the Bible.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
I already addressed this.

  1. A Hebrew writer stated that a Messiah would be born in Bethlehem.
  2. After Jesus was born, two writers asserted Jesus was born in Bethlehem.

If the Hebrew writer had "predicted" that a Messiah would be born in Jerusalem, the NT writers would have asserted that Jesus was born in Jerusalem.

You do know that the early Christian writers were trying to court Hebrews to convert to the new Christianity. There are many instances where Jesus allegedly says things like: "These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses,"

They even went so far as to incorporate the Hebrew scripture into their scripture giving the OT and the NT.

How many of the converts to Christianity were from among the Hebrews is hard to say. But there are many Jews in the world today.



The OT would have been eliminated entirely if Marcion had prevailed.
Christianity might have died out altogether if not for Constantine.

The Hebrew scriptures make it clear that the Messiah was to be a Jew, from the tribe of Judah, a descendant of King David.
Those chosen by Jesus to follow him, the twelve disciples, were all Jews. Jesus and his followers were sent to announce to Israel that God's kingdom was 'at hand'. The message is, therefore, quite clear. The Messiah was sent to his own.
John 1:11. 'He came unto his own, and his own received him not.'

Christians do not exist in the Gospels. The followers of Jesus are Jews who believe him to be the promised Messiah. Where, therefore, did they get the idea that Jesus might be the Messiah? What standards were they judging Jesus by, to determine whether or not he was the Messiah? Where else, except the Hebrew scriptures!

Had Jesus not been born in Bethlehem, the Jews would automatically have questioned his credentials. Interestingly, those who did know their scriptures did question whether Jesus had come from Galilee.
John 7:40-42
'Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet.
Others said, This is the Christ. But some said, Shall Christ come out of Galilee?
Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?'

So, it is not just Matthew and Luke that inform us of the birthplace of Jesus, John does also. This shows us that the people living at the time of Jesus were looking for a Messiah who was to be born in Bethlehem. Many people, meeting Jesus, did not know that Jesus had been born in Bethlehem, because as a boy, growing up, he had lived in Nazareth, Galilee.

P.S. Even suggesting that Christianity might have died out is a failure to acknowledge God's word!
 
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ecco

Veteran Member
The Hebrew scriptures make it clear that the Messiah was to be a Jew, from the tribe of Judah, a descendant of King David.

The "seed" for Jesus came from The Holy Ghost, not from a descendent of King David.

Christians do not exist in the Gospels. The followers of Jesus are Jews who believe him to be the promised Messiah.

So?

Where, therefore, did they get the idea that Jesus might be the Messiah?

From the Hebrew writings. They wanted a Messiah and they found one.

Had Jesus not been born in Bethlehem, the Jews would automatically have questioned his credentials.

Which is exactly why the Gospel writers had to assert that Jesus was born in Bethlehem! Aside from wanting the "prophecy" fulfilled, how did they know where Jesus was supposedly born?

That Christ cometh of the seed of David

The "seed" for Jesus came from The Holy Ghost, not from David. Or are you suggesting that the virgin birth story is false?

This shows us that the people living at the time of Jesus were looking for a Messiah who was to be born in Bethlehem.

The Gospel writers "fulfilled" their wishes.

Realistically, the Gospel writers fulfilled the wishes of some. Very many Jews did not accept Jesus as Messiah - and do not to this day.

Many of the converts were pagans helped along by Christianity morphing pagan holidays into Christian holidays:
Crome Google "pagan springtime holiday"
Well, it turns out Easter actually began as a pagan festival celebrating spring in the Northern Hemisphere, long before the advent of Christianity. "Since pre-historic times, people have celebrated the equinoxes and the solstices as sacred times," ...

"In the first couple of centuries after Jesus's life, feast days in the new Christian church were attached to old pagan festivals," Professor Cusack said.

"Spring festivals with the theme of new life and relief from the cold of winter became connected explicitly to Jesus having conquered death by being resurrected after the crucifixion."​


P.S. Even suggesting that Christianity might have died out is a failure to acknowledge God's word!
Suggesting that Christianity might have died out if not for Constantine, is stating reality.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
The "seed" for Jesus came from The Holy Ghost, not from a descendent of King David.



So?



From the Hebrew writings. They wanted a Messiah and they found one.



Which is exactly why the Gospel writers had to assert that Jesus was born in Bethlehem! Aside from wanting the "prophecy" fulfilled, how did they know where Jesus was supposedly born?



The "seed" for Jesus came from The Holy Ghost, not from David. Or are you suggesting that the virgin birth story is false?



The Gospel writers "fulfilled" their wishes.

Realistically, the Gospel writers fulfilled the wishes of some. Very many Jews did not accept Jesus as Messiah - and do not to this day.

Many of the converts were pagans helped along by Christianity morphing pagan holidays into Christian holidays:
Crome Google "pagan springtime holiday"
Well, it turns out Easter actually began as a pagan festival celebrating spring in the Northern Hemisphere, long before the advent of Christianity. "Since pre-historic times, people have celebrated the equinoxes and the solstices as sacred times," ...

"In the first couple of centuries after Jesus's life, feast days in the new Christian church were attached to old pagan festivals," Professor Cusack said.

"Spring festivals with the theme of new life and relief from the cold of winter became connected explicitly to Jesus having conquered death by being resurrected after the crucifixion."​



Suggesting that Christianity might have died out if not for Constantine, is stating reality.
Yes, it's true, according to scripture the conception of Mary was miraculous. A human egg was fertilised by the power of the Holy Spirit, and Mary gave birth, after nine months, to a human baby. It is, therefore, quite consistent to talk of Jesus as both the Son of God and the Son of Man.

The two genealogies of Jesus compliment one another because they supply us with a truth that could not have been imagined or devised by men. Matthew shows us the legal and royal line through Joseph, and Luke shows us the natural and literal line through Mary. When the two are combined by betrothal and marriage of Joseph and Mary, the way is made for Jesus to legitimately claim the throne of David.

Jews awaiting a Messiah now have a problem to resolve. If the Messiah has not already been born in Bethlehem, then he must be born in Bethlehem in the future (or has been recently, and is yet to appear publicly). This is in stark contrast to the Christian belief that Jesus will return as the Judge and King of Kings from Heaven. For Christians, there cannot be another birth of Christ on earth. That episode of prophecy has come and gone.

The harder one looks at the evidence, the harder it is to provide a narrative that does not follow the Biblical account. The Bible is a tightly woven prophecy, as one would expect coming from God. Jesus said, 'scripture cannot be broken' because he knew that the prophecies of Hebrew scripture were numerous and interconnected. He also knew that he was the Holy One sent to fulfil those prophecies.

A further confirmation that Jesus is the Messiah comes from the time span of prophecy. Jews realised that Genesis laid down a prologue to the whole span of earthly existence, which is why the following discussion is recorded in the Talmud, Sanhedrin 97b: 'The Tanna debe Eliyyahu teaches: The world is to exist six thousand years. In the first two thousand there was desolation; two thousand years the Torah flourished; and the next two thousand years is the Messianic era, but through our many iniquities all these years have been lost.' [This quote needs to be read in context]

Based on a day of creation as a thousand years, Jews had an expectation that the Messiah would arrive at the beginning of the fifth 'day'. This is supported by the record in Luke, who mentions the presence of Simeon and Anna in the Temple speaking prophetically about Jesus, even though he was a baby, a couple of months old.

I'm afraid your Professor Cusack seems to know little of the Jewish traditions that underpin Christian practices. Easter is based on Passover, Pesach, the very festival that was being celebrated when Jesus was crucified. The history of this festival is recorded in the Torah and dates back to the Exodus.
 
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ecco

Veteran Member
The two genealogies of Jesus compliment one another because they supply us with a truth that could not have been imagined or devised by men. Matthew shows us the legal and royal line through Joseph, and Luke shows us the natural and literal line through Mary. When the two are combined by betrothal and marriage of Joseph and Mary, the way is made for Jesus to legitimately claim the throne of David.

No society of the time cared anything about women in lineages. Any lineage that includes Mary is obvious fiction.

Davidic line - Wikipedia
Because Jews have historically believed that the Messiah will be a male-line descendant of David, the lineage of Jesus is sometimes cited as a reason why Jews do not believe that he was the Messiah. As the proposed son of God, he could not have been a male descendant of David because according to the genealogy of his earthly parents, Mary and Joseph, he did not have the proper lineage, because he would not have been a male descendant of Mary, and Joseph, who was a descendant of Jeconiah, because Jeconiah's descendants are explicitly barred from ever ruling Israel by God.[41]

Both sets of lineage are nonsense. Who kept track of all the births contemporaneously in the alleged lineages. Where and how were they contemporaneously recorded? Why were they contemporaneously recorded?

Nothing was recorded contemporaneously. The genealogies were written around 350BCE.

Books of the Chronicles | Old Testament
The uniformity of language, style, and ideas marks the work as the product of a single author, known as the Chronicler, who probably lived about 350–300 BC.

The genealogies in 1 Chronicles 1–9 also serve the Chronicler’s interests, for they are designed to show that the true Israel came to be realized in the kingdom of David. In the rest of his work the Chronicler also shows that he was interested in institutions that provided for the continuity of the true Israel: the Temple of Jerusalem and the Davidic dynasty. The historian thus uses even genealogies to serve an important function in the presentation of his people’s history.​

The harder one looks at the evidence, the harder it is to provide a narrative that does not follow the Biblical account. The Bible is a tightly woven prophecy, as one would expect coming from God.

If the Bible was indeed the word of a God, then one could expect to see prophecy. Since there are no actual prophecies in the Bible, it's very clear that all the words are merely those written by mortal men. You have been unable to show one single clear, unambiguous prophecy. Not one.

Based on a day of creation as a thousand years,...
In other words, if one makes an arbitrary decision to change the meaning of words one can twist scripture to say what one wants it to say. Many apologists do just that.

I'm afraid your Professor Cusack seems to know little of the Jewish traditions that underpin Christian practices. Easter is based on Passover, Pesach, the very festival that was being celebrated when Jesus was crucified. The history of this festival is recorded in the Torah and dates back to the Exodus.

The solstices were celebrated long before the Hebrews took one for themselves. This does not alter the fact that the early Christians did the same thing. If you think Cusack is wrong, you should consider why the Jews have Passover when they do...

https://www.chabad.org/holidays/pas...-Equinox-Relate-to-the-Timing-of-Passover.htm
However, it wasn’t enough for Passover to fall after the equinox, when it was “officially” spring; spring-like conditions needed to be evidenced. If in the land of Israel the barleyAdar. Spring should be felt; it should be bright and green.​

The early Christians who wanted to convert the Pagans knew the Pagans didn't give a damn about Jewish traditions. They did care about the solstice. That is the reason they "transformed" solstice celebrations into Easter celebrations.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
No society of the time cared anything about women in lineages. Any lineage that includes Mary is obvious fiction.

Davidic line - Wikipedia
Because Jews have historically believed that the Messiah will be a male-line descendant of David, the lineage of Jesus is sometimes cited as a reason why Jews do not believe that he was the Messiah. As the proposed son of God, he could not have been a male descendant of David because according to the genealogy of his earthly parents, Mary and Joseph, he did not have the proper lineage, because he would not have been a male descendant of Mary, and Joseph, who was a descendant of Jeconiah, because Jeconiah's descendants are explicitly barred from ever ruling Israel by God.[41]

Both sets of lineage are nonsense. Who kept track of all the births contemporaneously in the alleged lineages. Where and how were they contemporaneously recorded? Why were they contemporaneously recorded?

Nothing was recorded contemporaneously. The genealogies were written around 350BCE.

Books of the Chronicles | Old Testament
The uniformity of language, style, and ideas marks the work as the product of a single author, known as the Chronicler, who probably lived about 350–300 BC.

The genealogies in 1 Chronicles 1–9 also serve the Chronicler’s interests, for they are designed to show that the true Israel came to be realized in the kingdom of David. In the rest of his work the Chronicler also shows that he was interested in institutions that provided for the continuity of the true Israel: the Temple of Jerusalem and the Davidic dynasty. The historian thus uses even genealogies to serve an important function in the presentation of his people’s history.​



If the Bible was indeed the word of a God, then one could expect to see prophecy. Since there are no actual prophecies in the Bible, it's very clear that all the words are merely those written by mortal men. You have been unable to show one single clear, unambiguous prophecy. Not one.


In other words, if one makes an arbitrary decision to change the meaning of words one can twist scripture to say what one wants it to say. Many apologists do just that.



The solstices were celebrated long before the Hebrews took one for themselves. This does not alter the fact that the early Christians did the same thing. If you think Cusack is wrong, you should consider why the Jews have Passover when they do...

https://www.chabad.org/holidays/pas...-Equinox-Relate-to-the-Timing-of-Passover.htm
However, it wasn’t enough for Passover to fall after the equinox, when it was “officially” spring; spring-like conditions needed to be evidenced. If in the land of Israel the barleyAdar. Spring should be felt; it should be bright and green.​

The early Christians who wanted to convert the Pagans knew the Pagans didn't give a damn about Jewish traditions. They did care about the solstice. That is the reason they "transformed" solstice celebrations into Easter celebrations.
Here is an extended explanation that takes account of Mary and Jeconiah. Note particularly points 5 and 7.

1. The genealogy given in Matthew is the genealogy of Joseph, the reputed father of Jesus, his father in the eyes of the law. The genealogy given in Luke is the genealogy of Mary, the mother of Jesus, and is the human genealogy of Jesus Christ in actual fact. The Gospel of Matthew was written for Jews. All through it Joseph is prominent, Mary is scarcely mentioned. In Luke, on the other hand, Mary is the chief personage in the whole account of the Saviour’s conception and birth. Joseph is brought in only incidentally and because he was Mary’s husband. In all of this, of course, there is a deep significance.

2. In Matthew, Jesus appears as the Messiah. In Luke He appears as ‘the Son of Man’, our Brother and Redeemer, who belongs to the whole race and claims kindred with all kinds and conditions of men. So in Matthew, the genealogy descends from Abraham to Joseph and Jesus, because all the predictions and promises touching the Messiah are fulfilled in Him. But in Luke the genealogy ascends from Jesus to Adam, because the genealogy is being traced back to the head of the whole race, and shows the relation of the Second Adam to the First.

3. Joseph’s line is the strictly royal line from David to Joseph. In Luke, though the line of descent is from David, it is not the royal line. In this Jesus is descended from David through Nathan, David’s son indeed, but not in the royal line, and the list follows a line quite distinct from the royal line.

4. The Messiah, according to prediction, was to be the actual son of David according to the flesh (2 Samuel:12-19; Psalm 89:3, 4,3 4-37; 132:11; Acts 2:30; 13:22,23; Romans 1:3; 2 Timothy 2:8). These prophecies are fulfilled by Jesus being the Son of Mary, who was a lineal descendant of David, though not in the royal line. Joseph, who was of the royal line, was not his father according to the flesh, but was his father in the eyes of the law.

5. Mary was the descendant of David through her father, Heli. It is true that Luke 2:30 says that Joseph was the son of Heli. The simple explanation of this is that ,Mary being a woman, her name according to Jewish usage could not come into the genealogy, males alone forming the line, so Joseph’s name is introduced in the place of Mary’s, he being Mary’s husband; Heli was his father-in-law and so Joseph is called the son of Heli, and the line thus completed. While Joseph was son-in-law of Heli, according to the flesh he was in actual fact the son of Jacob (Matt.1:16).

6. Two genealogies are absolutely necessary to trace the lineage of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, the one the royal and legal, the other the natural and literal, and these two genealogies we find, the legal and royal in Matthew’s Gospel, the Gospel of law and kingship; the natural and literal in Luke’s, the Gospel of humanity.

7. We are told in Jeremiah 22:30 any descendant of Jeconiah could not come to the throne of David, and Joseph was of this line, and while Joseph’s genealogy furnished the royal line for Jesus, his son before the law, nevertheless Jeremiah’s prediction is fulfilled to the very letter, for Jesus, strictly speaking, was not Joseph’s descendant and therefore was not of the seed of Jeconiah. If Jesus had been the son of Joseph in reality, He could not have come to the throne, but He is Mary’s son through Nathan, and can come to the throne legally by her marrying Joseph and so clearing His way legally to it.’
[R.A.Torrey]

You continue to claim that I have not shown you a single prophecy when I have, in fact, listed over 50. You simply choose to ignore them! Do you deny that the Tanakh contains prophecy? Do you deny that prophets existed in Israel? Or, is it that you don't believe that Jesus is the fulfilment of much of their prophecy?

The tribes of Israel were taught not to mix pagan beliefs with the religion passed down by Moses in the Torah. To be holy under the law meant maintaining separation from all things ungodly and pagan. Agriculture is not itself pagan, and the giving of offerings, and making of (animal) sacrifices, was a way of thanking God for his blessings.

The practice of Christianity in many parts of the world has strayed from the Gospel of grace preached by Paul, but this is not a criticism of the Bible, or of Jesus Christ.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
1. The genealogy given in Matthew is the genealogy of Joseph, the reputed father of Jesus, his father in the eyes of the law.

"The Law" is not a bloodline.

ge·ne·al·o·gy
/ˌjēnēˈäləjē,ˌjēnēˈaləjē/
noun
a line of descent traced continuously from an ancestor.
When creating their religion the early Christians tried to have their cake and eat it too.

  1. They wanted to show that Jesus was the Messiah as "prophecized" by the Hebrews.
  2. They wanted to have a virgin birth god like other earlier religions.

The Pagan Origins of the Virgin Birth
When Paul began preaching to the Gentiles, his converts came from the Greek and Roman religions of Zeus and Jupiter, Mithraism, Zoroastrianism, and many other creeds and sects where virgin birth stories were common.​


The genealogy given in Luke is the genealogy of Mary, the mother of Jesus, and is the human genealogy of Jesus Christ in actual fact.

You failed to address the problem of the origins of these genealogies - who recorded them contemporaneously?

You continue to claim that I have not shown you a single prophecy when I have, in fact, listed over 50. You simply choose to ignore them! Do you deny that the Tanakh contains prophecy? Do you deny that prophets existed in Israel? Or, is it that you don't believe that Jesus is the fulfilment of much of their prophecy?

Yes, you copy/pasted a list of supposed prophecies.

What you did not / could not do was show even one detailed, specific prophecy. Since you didn't, I took the first one on your list and showed that it was so vague as to be meaningless.

The Nostradamus prophecy I quoted is far more specific than anything you have posted.

The tribes of Israel were taught not to mix pagan beliefs with the religion passed down by Moses in the Torah. To be holy under the law meant maintaining separation from all things ungodly and pagan.

What's your point?

. Agriculture is not itself pagan, and the giving of offerings, and making of (animal) sacrifices, was a way of thanking God for his blessings.
Utter nonsense. Are you trying to assert that humans had no agriculture before the advent of the Biblical Hebrews? Anyone who believes that is completely ignorant of human history. Perhaps, I'm not understanding your comment.

Furhthermore, people around the world and across the ages gave offerings and thanked the spirits or gods for a bountiful harvest.


The practice of Christianity in many parts of the world has strayed from the Gospel of grace preached by Paul, but this is not a criticism of the Bible, or of Jesus Christ.
That's a moot point. I have not commented on the "practice of Christianity". I've commented only on what is written in scripture and on your interpretations and comments.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
"The Law" is not a bloodline.

ge·ne·al·o·gy
/ˌjēnēˈäləjē,ˌjēnēˈaləjē/
noun
a line of descent traced continuously from an ancestor.
When creating their religion the early Christians tried to have their cake and eat it too.

  1. They wanted to show that Jesus was the Messiah as "prophecized" by the Hebrews.
  2. They wanted to have a virgin birth god like other earlier religions.

The Pagan Origins of the Virgin Birth
When Paul began preaching to the Gentiles, his converts came from the Greek and Roman religions of Zeus and Jupiter, Mithraism, Zoroastrianism, and many other creeds and sects where virgin birth stories were common.​




You failed to address the problem of the origins of these genealogies - who recorded them contemporaneously?



Yes, you copy/pasted a list of supposed prophecies.

What you did not / could not do was show even one detailed, specific prophecy. Since you didn't, I took the first one on your list and showed that it was so vague as to be meaningless.

The Nostradamus prophecy I quoted is far more specific than anything you have posted.



What's your point?


Utter nonsense. Are you trying to assert that humans had no agriculture before the advent of the Biblical Hebrews? Anyone who believes that is completely ignorant of human history. Perhaps, I'm not understanding your comment.

Furhthermore, people around the world and across the ages gave offerings and thanked the spirits or gods for a bountiful harvest.



That's a moot point. I have not commented on the "practice of Christianity". I've commented only on what is written in scripture and on your interpretations and comments.

A mistake made by many is believing that the Messiah is to be born of male seed. Interestingly, the first prophecy you looked at stated this clearly. Genesis 3:15 said, 'I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed.' And this is confirmed in Galatians 4:4 which states, 'But when the fulness of time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.'

The beauty of the two genealogies, given in Matthew and Luke, is that they allow for the Messiah to be of David's royal line whilst not being born of male seed. The virgin conception is not an attempt to 'curry favour' with pagans, as you suggest, but a necessary move on God's part to ensure the salvation of mankind - to 'redeem them that were under the law'.

Had Jesus been born of both a human mother and human father he would have been born a sinner, for as it says in Galatians 3:22, 'But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.' Or, as it says in Romans 3:9,10, 'for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:'

So, if all human beings are sinners, as scripture clearly states, only God is able to save. Isaiah 43:11, 'I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour'. This means that for Jesus Christ to be the Saviour of mankind, he must come from God.

Genealogies have a special importance to Israel. They help to distinguish between priests and laymen, and between royalty and commoner, and they help in the process of enrolment by grouping Israel by tribe. The Hebrew scriptures included these genealogies, some of which are abridged, to ensure legality in administrative and sacred matters. I can see no issue, or problem with those included.

As for agriculture, I'm not sure we're understanding each other. The Jewish pilgrim festivals, Passover, Pentecost and Tabernacles, clearly have an agricultural element, which finds meaning under the Mosaic law, and still more, spiritually, in Jesus Christ.

As an atheist, I wonder what kind of explanation you have for Israel's history. You appear to reject prophecy, yet there can be no doubt that Israel has a history, the roots of which are contained in the Bible. Ancient writers, such as Josephus, support this Biblical account, so where do you deviate from the traditions?
 

ecco

Veteran Member
A mistake made by many is believing that the Messiah is to be born of male seed.
No. The mistake was...
When creating their religion the early Christians tried to have their cake and eat it too.
  1. They wanted to show that Jesus was the Messiah as "prophecized" by the Hebrews.
  2. They wanted to have a virgin birth god like other earlier religions.
The beauty of the two genealogies, given in Matthew and Luke, is that they allow for the Messiah to be of David's royal line whilst not being born of male seed. The virgin conception is not an attempt to 'curry favour' with pagans, as you suggest, but a necessary move on God's part to ensure the salvation of mankind - to 'redeem them that were under the law'.

Uh huh. See 1. & 2. above.



A mistake made by many is believing that the Messiah is to be born of male seed.

The Hebrews who predicted a Messiah certainly believed that. And, since Jesus was allegedly from the seed of God and not from the Hebrew bloodline, the Hebrews rejected Jesus as a Messiah. Yeah, someone made a mistake - See 1. & 2. above.


Had Jesus been born of both a human mother and human father he would have been born a sinner, for as it says in Galatians 3:22, 'But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.' Or, as it says in Romans 3:9,10, 'for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:'


So, if all human beings are sinners, as scripture clearly states, only God is able to save. Isaiah 43:11, 'I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour'. This means that for Jesus Christ to be the Saviour of mankind, he must come from God.

You are acknowledging that the early Christian writers tried to make Jesus "godly" by using the old virgin birth narrative.

Genealogies have a special importance to Israel. They help to distinguish between priests and laymen, and between royalty and commoner, and they help in the process of enrolment by grouping Israel by tribe. The Hebrew scriptures included these genealogies, some of which are abridged, to ensure legality in administrative and sacred matters. I can see no issue, or problem with those included.

That does not explain who maintained them contemporaneously. If that can't be explained then it becomes obvious that the genealogies are made up after the fact to fit into Hebrew narratives.

As for agriculture, I'm not sure we're understanding each other. The Jewish pilgrim festivals, Passover, Pentecost and Tabernacles, clearly have an agricultural element, which finds meaning under the Mosaic law, and still more, spiritually, in Jesus Christ.

You can continue to ignore the fact that long before Hebrews and later Jesus, many cultures observed the solstices and the equinoxes. The founders of Judaism co-opted some of these periods for their own purposes. The founders of Christianity co-opted some of these periods for their own purposes.

As an atheist, I wonder what kind of explanation you have for Israel's history.

Do you mean the history of the Jews or the history of Israel? Isreal has only existed since 1948.
I seriously doubt that my being an atheist has any impact on my knowledge of the history of Isreal.

You appear to reject prophecy,

Yes, I reject prophecy. You accept what you believe to be prophecy. However, you still have been unable to show one unambiguous specific prophecy. Not one.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
No. The mistake was...
When creating their religion the early Christians tried to have their cake and eat it too.
  1. They wanted to show that Jesus was the Messiah as "prophecized" by the Hebrews.
  2. They wanted to have a virgin birth god like other earlier religions.


Uh huh. See 1. & 2. above.





The Hebrews who predicted a Messiah certainly believed that. And, since Jesus was allegedly from the seed of God and not from the Hebrew bloodline, the Hebrews rejected Jesus as a Messiah. Yeah, someone made a mistake - See 1. & 2. above.




You are acknowledging that the early Christian writers tried to make Jesus "godly" by using the old virgin birth narrative.



That does not explain who maintained them contemporaneously. If that can't be explained then it becomes obvious that the genealogies are made up after the fact to fit into Hebrew narratives.



You can continue to ignore the fact that long before Hebrews and later Jesus, many cultures observed the solstices and the equinoxes. The founders of Judaism co-opted some of these periods for their own purposes. The founders of Christianity co-opted some of these periods for their own purposes.



Do you mean the history of the Jews or the history of Israel? Isreal has only existed since 1948.
I seriously doubt that my being an atheist has any impact on my knowledge of the history of Isreal.



Yes, I reject prophecy. You accept what you believe to be prophecy. However, you still have been unable to show one unambiguous specific prophecy. Not one.
First, you need to acquaint yourself with the Hebrew scriptures. I cannot do this for you.

Prophecy and Israel are so inextricably linked that one cannot hope to understand one without the other! God chose Israel as the 'apple of his eye' and he spoke to Israel through his prophets.

Israel existed long before 1948! Israel means 'God strives' and was the name given to Jacob by God [Genesis 32:28].
 

ecco

Veteran Member
First, you need to acquaint yourself with the Hebrew scriptures.
Why? Nothing you have shown shows that they are anything more than folk tales designed to glorify the ancient Hebrews. If you think there is more, I'm sure you would show me.

Prophecy and Israel are so inextricably linked that one cannot hope to understand one without the other!
I can understand prophecy. Why can't you give me an example? The was a rhetorical question. You pretend there is prophecy all over the OT but you know it cannot stand up to scrutiny. I demonstrated that early on.

God chose Israel as the 'apple of his eye' and he spoke to Israel through his prophets.
So, Christians are in for a big surprise when they die and find out that God doesn't give a rat's *** about them. Fun!
 
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