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How to prove God.

McBell

Resident Sourpuss
I never said belief in God proves there is a God, but it makes no sense to me that 93% of the world population are all deluded and only 7% of the world population who are atheists are right that there is no God.
Who has made this claim?
I most certainly haven't.

I did, however, present a list of things that used to be believed by the vast majority that are no longer believed by the vast majority.
Which strongly indicates that it is entirely possible for a vast majority of the population to believe something that simply is not true.

Interestingly enough, what would you think if your argument is applied to the list?
I mean, if the vast majority of the world believes that tomatoes are poisonous, there has to be a reason, right?
I can not possibly be they are ALL wrong, right?
Except that they were ...
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
What? You think she was a believer before she investigated? I assure you that's not true. I know her.
Studies indicate most humans have a predisposition to believe in religious lore of some sort. So she was likely open to believe in something and what she found was appealing. From what she has presented as evidence it wasn't evidence that was the compelling factor. Her framework is exceptionally reliant on assumption and faith, like any other religion, and objective thinkers don't use faith as a path to making conclusions.

Does an objective thinker really exist?
Of course they do. In fact most theists are highly objective when it comes to examining other religions that isn't their own. They will apply a high standards of evidence against other religious claims that they don't apply on their own. This is called the special pleading fallacy in logic. This illustrates the dilemma for many theists, that they have to manage the attachment to their own beliefs while applying reason and criticism of similar ideas.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
I am not claiming there is a single reason. Maybe I should have said reasons, because that is what I meant when I said there must be a reason that people believe in God. I meant that collectively.
There are many reasons as genetics, biology, human evolution, and the social sciences explain, and none of it is because there are actual gods that some people can detect through reason or some special ability.

I never said belief in God proves there is a God, but it makes no sense to me that 93% of the world population are all deluded and only 7% of the world population who are atheists are right that there is no God. Sorry, that does not fly for many logical reasons, not the least of which is that it is the 93% who are running the world, and if they are all deluded how would that be possible? This inane atheist idea that God owes it to them to prove He exists or they are not going to believe in Him is like a little kid who wants his lollipop or else he is going to be mad at daddy. It is like a petulant child.
Your paragraph here ignores a lot of facts. First it is disputable that 93% of humans are theists. Second, even if this was the number we can observe that there is a broad range of very mild and liberal theists to hard core extremists, and these are far from being in the same category of belief and reason. Third, as studies show through many types of scientific approaches humans evolved with a tendency to believe in social norms which includes religion. Fourth, most all people on the planet are born into some sort of cultural framework, and these include some sort of religious belief that children are conditioned to think is true.

It's this last item that is very important. Children learn to believe in religious ideas as part of their social learning and development. This on top of the genetic trait to adopt and apply social norms means this influence will become like the brain's software as they grow into adolescence and adulthood. You and other theists want to believe your religious beliefs were arrived at objectively and via facts. If that was the case then this religious framework would be part of science and reality, yet none are.

That there are so many theists, and so many varieties of fervor and passion and commitment, is only exaggerated by so many different religions and different types of gods. Religion isn't like science where theres a uniform set of conclusions. Religion has a huge disparity of personal opinion, and the facts are highly subjective and inconclusive. Let's note most even different theist claims facts for their god yet you dismiss them. They dismiss yours. Atheists dismiss everyone's. So you are much like an atheist except where it comes to your preferred religious framework, and of course the evidence to values for that is what you value so you can justify your belief.

Given that the huge number of people who are inclined to believe in religious ideas is not due to reason or following some select set of facts. It is due to genetic factors, and as learned from social experience. PET and fMRI scans have shown that religious belief in subjects do not process in the frontal lobes, rather they activate the reward center and emotion center of the brain. The research shows that these ideas actually bypass the reasoning part of the brain. This data and results can be read about in certain chapters of the book Emotional Intelligence by Daniel Coleman.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
I
You have given NO logical reason. lol, a million times lol.
93% of the people in the world are believers and they are running the world. All those people do not have psychological weaknesses or cognition errors.

The 7% of atheists are the ones with cognition errors, because they believe that if God existed God would be provable. The 93% know better.
So you are critical of those who think if something exists there should be evidence that proves it, that it would be provable. Yet you say this is wrong and the 93% must know God isn't provable.

So if God isn't provable then how can theists make any rational conclusion that one exists? The evidence that will convince a rational self will be adequate to convince other rational people. This is how trials work in court. So you're admitting that God isn't provable, which means there isn't evidence adequate to prove a God exists, yet blame the rational for not having adequate evidence to conclude a God exists.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
"93% of the world population are all deluded"

Who has made this claim?
I most certainly haven't.
I know that you haven't but other atheists have.
I did, however, present a list of things that used to be believed by the vast majority that are no longer believed by the vast majority.
Which strongly indicates that it is entirely possible for a vast majority of the population to believe something that simply is not true.

Interestingly enough, what would you think if your argument is applied to the list?
I mean, if the vast majority of the world believes that tomatoes are poisonous, there has to be a reason, right?
I can not possibly be they are ALL wrong, right?
Except that they were ...
It is also possible for the vast majority to believe something that is true, and it makes sense that the vast majority of people would believe in God because there is evidence for God's existence. Was there ever any evidence for the following things you listed, or did people just believe them with no evidence?

the earth being flat
Tomatos being poisonous
Horse hairs left in water would turn into worms
Sickness caused by demons
Sun revolving around the Earth
So, do you think that someday it will be discovered that everyone was wrong about God and God does not exist after all?
I believe that the exact opposite event is going to occur someday. :)

“The Day is approaching when God will render the hosts of Truth victorious, and He will purge the whole earth in such wise that within the compass of His knowledge not a single soul shall remain unless he truly believeth in God, worshippeth none other God but Him, boweth down by day and by night in His adoration, and is reckoned among such as are well assured.”
Selections From the Writings of the Báb, pp. 153-154


But if you do not consider Baha'i scriptures authoritative, we also have similar verses in the Bible...

Jeremiah 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Isaiah 11:9They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.

You see, it has been part of God's Plan from the very beginning that everyone wil believe in Him and know He exists. Meanwhile, God is just biding His time, you know what the Bible says about God being patient. ;)
And since God is all-knowing, God knows that eventually all the atheists will become believers, which might be one reason why God is not concerned about convincing atheists that He exists.

Universal belief in God won't happen in our lifetime but smart people always get in on the ground floor and the smartest ones pick the religion that was revealed for this age, not a Bronze age religion that has long since seen its day. ;)
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
So she was likely open to believe in something and what she found was appealing. From what she has presented as evidence it wasn't evidence that was the compelling factor.
You are right about that. I initially joined the Baha'i Faith because I found it appealing and I did not give a rip if God existed or not, as I was not searching for God or a religion. I never even thought about God back then. I joined the Baha'i Faith because I was drawn to the high ideals like the oneness of mankind, the elimination of all prejudice, social and economic justice, and peace on earth.

Only much later did I even concern myself with God or whether Baha'u'llah was really a Messenger of God, but as soon as I started concerning myself with those things I was unrelenting in my research. I can remember a time about six years ago when I used to post on another forum and someone asked me how certain I was that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God and I said I was about 80-90% sure, but now I am 100% sure. I really have the atheists on that forum to thank for that because they challenged me so much and that drove me to do more and more research in order to refute them, including the refutation of what an atheist forum owner dug up when he was trying to discredit Baha'ullah. Of course I wanted to find out if it was really true, so that led me to further investigation at which time I discovered it was just calumny.
 

McBell

Resident Sourpuss
I know that you haven't but other atheists have.

It is also possible for the vast majority to believe something that is true, and it makes sense that the vast majority of people would believe in God because there is evidence for God's existence. Was there ever any evidence for the following things you listed, or did people just believe them with no evidence?

the earth being flat
Tomatos being poisonous
Horse hairs left in water would turn into worms
Sickness caused by demons
Sun revolving around the Earth
So, do you think that someday it will be discovered that everyone was wrong about God and God does not exist after all?
I believe that the exact opposite event is going to occur someday. :)

“The Day is approaching when God will render the hosts of Truth victorious, and He will purge the whole earth in such wise that within the compass of His knowledge not a single soul shall remain unless he truly believeth in God, worshippeth none other God but Him, boweth down by day and by night in His adoration, and is reckoned among such as are well assured.”
Selections From the Writings of the Báb, pp. 153-154


But if you do not consider Baha'i scriptures authoritative, we also have similar verses in the Bible...

Jeremiah 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Isaiah 11:9They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.

You see, it has been part of God's Plan from the very beginning that everyone wil believe in Him and know He exists. Meanwhile, God is just biding His time, you know what the Bible says about God being patient. ;)
And since God is all-knowing, God knows that eventually all the atheists will become believers, which might be one reason why God is not concerned about convincing atheists that He exists.

Universal belief in God won't happen in our lifetime but smart people always get in on the ground floor and the smartest ones pick the religion that was revealed for this age, not a Bronze age religion that has long since seen its day. ;)
I provide a list of examples to support my point and all you have in reply is a long winded argument from incredulity hidden in a sermon?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I provide a list of examples to support my point and all you have in reply is a long winded argument from incredulity hidden in a sermon?
Sorry, I have always been very tangential, drives some people crazy. ;)
I do not think you have supported your point unless there was evidence for the things you listed.

I cannot help wanting to analyze things, it is in my nature. So, was there ever any evidence for the things you listed, or did people just believe them with no evidence? If many/most people believed them with no evidence you cannot compare them to the many/most people who believe in God, because religion and civilization are evidence for God. And how did the great religions get established? -- Messengers of God, or whatever you choose to call them. Would there have ever have been a Christian civilization without Jesus Christ, or an Islamic civilization without Muhammad? Religion is evidence of God even if it is not proof of God, and most people are satisfied with evidence. Only atheists require proof, and that is why they are atheists, because there is no way to prove that God exists, except to yourself, and it is impossible to prove it to yourself unless you look at the only evidence that God provides, the Messengers. Do you see the Catch-22?
 

McBell

Resident Sourpuss
Sorry, I have always been very tangential, drives some people crazy. ;)
I do not think you have supported your point unless there was evidence for the things you listed.

I cannot help wanting to analyze things, it is in my nature. So, was there ever any evidence for the things you listed, or did people just believe them with no evidence? If many/most people believed them with no evidence you cannot compare them to the many/most people who believe in God, because religion and civilization are evidence for God. And how did the great religions get established? -- Messengers of God, or whatever you choose to call them. Would there have ever have been a Christian civilization without Jesus Christ, or an Islamic civilization without Muhammad? Religion is evidence of God even if it is not proof of God, and most people are satisfied with evidence. Only atheists require proof, and that is why they are atheists, because there is no way to prove that God exists, except to yourself, and it is impossible to prove it to yourself unless you look at the only evidence that God provides, the Messengers. Do you see the Catch-22?
Please be so kind as to present a single belief, ever, that was believed by someone without any evidence.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Please be so kind as to present a single belief, ever, that was believed by someone without any evidence.
Oh, so now you are willing to concede that I actually have evidence for my religious beliefs?
Thanks, I'll pass that along to all the atheists who say "that's not evidence." :D
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
There are many reasons as genetics, biology, human evolution, and the social sciences explain, and none of it is because there are actual gods that some people can detect through reason or some special ability.
Why some people become believers and other don’t is related to desires and preferences. Humans have the will/ability to make choices based upon their desires and preferences. Our desires and preferences come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. How free we are to make these choices varies with the situation.

God cannot he detected by any special abilities but God can be discovered through the use of reason, but since we all reason differently, people will come to different conclusions when they apply reason. That applies to anything in life, not just belief in God. For example, it seems reasonable for me to continue driving old cars but that would seem very unreasonable to most people who had my kind of money. This again is related to our desires and preferences which are derived from the combination of factors I just mentioned.
Your paragraph here ignores a lot of facts. First it is disputable that 93% of humans are theists. Second, even if this was the number we can observe that there is a broad range of very mild and liberal theists to hard core extremists, and these are far from being in the same category of belief and reason.
Since 7% of the world population are positive atheists and agnostics that means that 93% of the world population are either theists or those who are not positive atheists and agnostics. So you are correct that 93% of people in the world are not all theists. The 93% have varying degrees of belief in God and some are uncertain if God exists. If 93% were as certain that God exists as I am, the world would be a lot different, as fear of God eliminates the possibility of evil.
Third, as studies show through many types of scientific approaches humans evolved with a tendency to believe in social norms which includes religion. Fourth, most all people on the planet are born into some sort of cultural framework, and these include some sort of religious belief that children are conditioned to think is true.

It's this last item that is very important. Children learn to believe in religious ideas as part of their social learning and development. This on top of the genetic trait to adopt and apply social norms means this influence will become like the brain's software as they grow into adolescence and adulthood. You and other theists want to believe your religious beliefs were arrived at objectively and via facts. If that was the case then this religious framework would be part of science and reality, yet none are.
Most people were born into some sort of cultural framework, including some sort of religious belief, and most children are conditioned to believe in the religion they were raised with, so that explains why most people believe in God and a religion, but then you have to ask why people have believed in God and religion since humans evolved. That also does not explain why so many people leave religion and become agnostics or atheists and why some people who were born into atheist families later become religious.

I don’t know about other theists but my religious beliefs were arrived at objectively and via facts – facts about my religion. No religious framework will ever be part of science because science is a completely different part if reality from religion. True religion does not ignore science; it is just outside the purview of science. Science addresses the material world and what we need to survive and live comfortably, including protecting our natural environment; religion addresses morals and values and what we need to acquire by way of character in order to get along with other people.
That there are so many theists, and so many varieties of fervor and passion and commitment, is only exaggerated by so many different religions and different types of gods. Religion isn't like science where theres a uniform set of conclusions. Religion has a huge disparity of personal opinion, and the facts are highly subjective and inconclusive. Let's note most even different theist claims facts for their god yet you dismiss them. They dismiss yours. Atheists dismiss everyone's. So you are much like an atheist except where it comes to your preferred religious framework, and of course the evidence to values for that is what you value so you can justify your belief.
The obvious reason why there are so many different religions and beliefs in different types of gods is because religion has been revealed to humanity progressively over the course of thousands of years, and it was revealed in different parts of the world. The same cannot be said for science, which does not date back as far as religion.

It is true that religion has a huge disparity of personal opinion, and the facts are highly subjective and inconclusive, but that does not mean there are no objective facts or that no conclusions can be drawn. Of course I am biased towards my own religion as religious people are, but logically speaking my bias does not mean my religion is not true; it is either true or false, and that is for everyone to determine if they want to know. Otherwise they can just choose to remain in the religion they are in, be a nonreligious believer, or be a nonbeliever.
Given that the huge number of people who are inclined to believe in religious ideas is not due to reason or following some select set of facts. It is due to genetic factors, and as learned from social experience. PET and fMRI scans have shown that religious belief in subjects do not process in the frontal lobes, rather they activate the reward center and emotion center of the brain. The research shows that these ideas actually bypass the reasoning part of the brain. This data and results can be read about in certain chapters of the book Emotional Intelligence by Daniel Coleman.
I agree that the huge number of people who are inclined to believe in religious ideas is not due to reason or following some select set of facts, but that does not mean that there are no religious people whose beliefs are based upon reason and facts. To say that would be the fallacy of hasty generalization. Moreover to suggest that all religious people believe on emotion rather than reason is definitely the fallacy of hasty generalization.

All humans act on both emotion and reason, no matter what they believe and some people are more emotional some more reason-based. Some of this has to do with their genetics and intelligence level but more is related to childhood upbringing and later life experiences. For example, I was not raised in any religion or believing in God so I never had any feelings about God the way most Christians do. To me God is an intellectual construct, an entity I try to understand, not and entity I desire to relate to on a personal level. I have always been more analytical than emotional and my husband is the very opposite, and thus I cannot reason with him when it comes to certain beliefs he holds about God, even though they make no logical sense to me.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
So you are critical of those who think if something exists there should be evidence that proves it, that it would be provable. Yet you say this is wrong and the 93% must know God isn't provable.

So if God isn't provable then how can theists make any rational conclusion that one exists? The evidence that will convince a rational self will be adequate to convince other rational people. This is how trials work in court. So you're admitting that God isn't provable, which means there isn't evidence adequate to prove a God exists, yet blame the rational for not having adequate evidence to conclude a God exists.
As I have said many times before, evidence is not the same as proof. Even in a court of law, proof beyond a reasonable doubt is not absolute proof.

Reasonable doubt - Wikipedia

As I just said to Mestemia, most people are satisfied with evidence. Only atheists require proof, and that is why they are atheists, because there is no way to prove that God exists, except to yourself, and it is impossible to prove it to yourself unless you look at the only evidence that God provides, the Messengers. Do you see the Catch-22?

If you think logically you would realize that if God exists, humans would have to rely upon God to provide the evidence of His existence. There is no other way because God is unreachable!

We cannot see God or talk to God, so if we want to believe in God we have to look at the only evidence there has ever been for God, which is the Messengers and the religions that they establish. This is the rational thing to do. The irrational thing to do is to expect God to provide some other kind of evidence that He has never before provided, considering that the evidence He has provided has worked to garner the belief of most people in the world. Logically, if God sent Messengers as evidence of His existence that has to be the best way for us to know that God exists because an all-knowing God would have to know the best way to show us that He exists.

Messengers of God serve a twofold purpose. That are proof that God exists but they also bring a message from God. What would be the point of knowing that God exists if we have no idea what God’s will is for us? This is why I consider it rather pointless to believe in God with no religion that has a message and teachings.
 

McBell

Resident Sourpuss
Oh, so now you are willing to concede that I actually have evidence for my religious beliefs?
Thanks, I'll pass that along to all the atheists who say "that's not evidence." :D
When have I claimed you did not have any evidence?
This is the SECOND time you accuse me of something I have not done...

If you have paid attention to my postings the last upteen years you would know that I have always had issue with people asking for "evidence" then whining that the "evidence" given was not "{insert specific type here} evidence".

And your blatant avoidance of the question did not go unnoticed.

Since you appear unwilling to have an honest discussion with me on the topic...
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
When have I claimed you did not have any evidence?
This is the SECOND time you accuse me of something I have not done...
If you have paid attention to my postings the last upteen years you would know that I have always had issue with people asking for "evidence" then whining that the "evidence" given was not "{insert specific type here} evidence".
You are the only atheist that has not said "that's not evidence" so apparently I forgot what you said before, but now I remember. I greatly apologize. I have had a lot of things on my mind and I am dog tired.
And your blatant avoidance of the question did not go unnoticed.
You said: Please be so kind as to present a single belief, ever, that was believed by someone without any evidence.
I assumed you meant that everyone who has a belief has evidence for that belief so I could not name anyone, and that is why I answered the way I did. I guess I am on the defensive because I have been conditioned to expect all atheists to say "that's not evidence."
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
It's My Birthday!
Her framework is exceptionally reliant on assumption and faith, like any other religion, and objective thinkers don't use faith as a path to making conclusions.
She has told me she didn't even consider whether God existed or not before her brother gave her books to read about the Baha'i Faith. Religion and God was never mentioned in the home she grew up in.

Of course they do. In fact most theists are highly objective when it comes to examining other religions that isn't their own. They will apply a high standards of evidence against other religious claims that they don't apply on their own. This is called the special pleading fallacy in logic. This illustrates the dilemma for many theists, that they have to manage the attachment to their own beliefs while applying reason and criticism of similar ideas.
There is no such thing as a objective thinker. Everybody has biases. You bias is your own religion which you apply to other religions perhaps. I don't know you so I don't know your biases, just suggesting a possible bias. I think everybody probably measures other religions to their own belief or lack of belief. Everybody has beliefs, positive or negative.
 
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Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
It's My Birthday!
Then why do you think most people believe in God?
Not because most people believe in God. Most people believe in the religion they are brought up in or something like it. That is their basis for believing in God. You believe because you investigated. You started from scratch.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
She has told me she didn't even consider whether God existed or not before her brother gave her books to read about the Baha'i Faith. Religion and God was never mentioned in the home she grew up in.
If you notice her comments she doesn't have very many tools of thought. Very little science, very little logic, and usually the references of logical fallacies are not accurately applied. So her overall thinking process is highly flawed and simplistic, and it's no wonder she decided the religious views she read about were true.


There is no such thing as a objective thinker. Everybody has biases. You bias is your own religion which you apply to other religions perhaps. I don't know you so I don't know your biases, just suggesting a possible bias. I think everybody probably measures other religions to their own belief or lack of belief. Everybody has beliefs, positive or negative.
Being an objective thinker isn't about claiming a person doesn't;t have bias, it is about learning skilled thinking and how to set aside bias and examine evidence and claims with the tools of reason and logic. It also helps to have a good working knowledge of science, or at least how to reference credible science sources. This is what makes an objective thinker, looking for facts and truth.

Look at your own handle, do you think being a "truth seeker" isn't objective? Do you think being a seeker means finding false truths? If not, then you understand that a person can find what is true about reality through reason and mental discipline.
 
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