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Which one is a Cult? A or B?

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
How is it that a spirit can be father to flesh?
God is the father of our spirit, not our flesh. ( Heb 12:9 )

I'm sorry, I thought you believed the Messiah was the Son of God. Luke 1:34-35 and Matthew 1:18-20

If you don't believe the eternal Spirit was the Father of the Messiah, who was the Father?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
***MOVED TO SAME FAITH DEBATES***
That's the same faith? To have basic beliefs clash, such as one believing that God turns over to God the kingdom, while another believes that God is not God in the sense of being equal to his God? How does that work, that it's the same faith? Somehow I think there's a rather big difference. OK, a vast difference. Such as not going from there to here because of the differences. But that's me, and I don't expect or wonder or ask who agrees.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Why do you say it was a false charge. Jesus was breaking the Sabbath and was making Himself equal with God by calling God His Father.



That does not mean they do not have the same nature/essence. The Son was then in a position of less authority and so the Father was greater. The Son is always submissive to His Father anyway.



You pick out a verse where Jesus is showing that He is God and you twist it around to mean that He is not God. Don't you realise that Jesus IS good? You will have to stop listening to your teachers who are teaching you false doctrine and reasonig.



I'm not sure what the 1000 years being like a day and a day being like a 1000 years to God has to do with it.
The thing about the Sabbath is that it was lawful to do good on the Sabbath and to work on the Sabbath out of love for God and neighbour. The Priests worked on the Sabbath, Jesus showed that even a Jew would pull his animal out of a ditch on the Sabbath and so should do the same for a man. Jesus broke the Sabbath in order to obey the Law and love God and neighbour.
Likewise the charge of claiming equality with God was correct. It is just that you do not want to admit that Jesus is the real Son of God with the same nature. You want to make Him a creation of God like the rest of creation.
Who cares, first, second or 50 millionth one created, that does not make anyone any better.
Jesus was appointed to be firstborn (Psalm 89:27). Nobody gets appointed to be the first one born. You are the first one born or you are not,,,,,,,,,,no appointment there. The Governing Body has denied the true meaning of "firstborn" to make it look like Jesus was created first and then they add to the Bible the word "other" to make it look like Jesus was one of the things created. Look at Colossians 1:15-17 in the New World Translation and you will see "other" added when it is not in the Greek. The NWT used to put this word in brackets but now has grown bold enough to remove the brackets as if it is in the original text.
John 1:3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.
The GB has not yet gotten around to adding "other" into this passage and we can see from it that Jesus has not come into existence. iows He is not a part of the creation except for the fact that He stepped into the creation when He became a man.
Hope nobody minds if I get involved here, but I'd like to know if and how you think Jesus was breaking the sabbath law? Perhaps we can settle down there to that question for a brief moment in time, thank you.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
That's the same faith? To have basic beliefs clash, such as one believing that God turns over to God the kingdom, while another believes that God is not God in the sense of being equal to his God? How does that work, that it's the same faith? Somehow I think there's a rather big difference. OK, a vast difference. Such as not going from there to here because of the differences. But that's me, and I don't expect or wonder or ask who agrees.

See also:

Christianity - Wikipedia
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
I'm sorry, I thought you believed the Messiah was the Son of God. Luke 1:34-35 and Matthew 1:18-20

If you don't believe the eternal Spirit was the Father of the Messiah, who was the Father?

The Messiah is the Son of God and the Messiah was the Son of God at the creation.
Heb 1:1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.
The Son also was equal with His Father at this time in all ways except that He was the Son and so submitted to the authority of His Father. The Son humbled Himself to take the form of a servant when He became a man. It was not the Father who became a man.
Phil 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

The Messiah is Jesus who is a man and so is both flesh and spirit. The flesh came from Mary the spirit from His Father. The spirit is the same spirit that was with His Father before becoming a man. This spirit is in His Father and His Father is in Him even when He was a man on earth. But the Son is distinct from His Father according to the scriptures.
How do you answer how the Son was only the body? How is God the Father of just a fleshly body?
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Hope nobody minds if I get involved here, but I'd like to know if and how you think Jesus was breaking the sabbath law? Perhaps we can settle down there to that question for a brief moment in time, thank you.

I have tossed this around for a while and have thought that Jesus was not really breaking the sabbath because He knew what was meant by "keeping the Sabbath" and not working on the Sabbath. So He was keeping the Sabbath how God wanted.
I have also thought that laws are like that. Sometimes one has to break a law in order to keep another. The priests broke the Sabbath by working on it. But they were keeping the more important command of being priests and doing that work. In this way they were loving God and their neighbour by breaking the Sabbath.
It is the same with Jesus. He was breaking the Sabbath by working/healing on it, but that work was love for His neighbour, a more important command.
The priests and anyone also would have worked on the Sabbath by pulling someone's donkey out of a pit on the Sabbath.
It was not that Jesus was not breaking the Sabbath, it was just that He was obeying a more important commandment by breaking the Sabbath.
In this way His breaking of the Sabbath was not sin.
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
The Messiah is the Son of God and the Messiah was the Son of God at the creation.
Heb 1:1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.
The Son also was equal with His Father at this time in all ways except that He was the Son and so submitted to the authority of His Father. The Son humbled Himself to take the form of a servant when He became a man. It was not the Father who became a man.
Phil 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

The Messiah is Jesus who is a man and so is both flesh and spirit. The flesh came from Mary the spirit from His Father. The spirit is the same spirit that was with His Father before becoming a man. This spirit is in His Father and His Father is in Him even when He was a man on earth. But the Son is distinct from His Father according to the scriptures.
How do you answer how the Son was only the body? How is God the Father of just a fleshly body?

1. You seem to be all over the board. First you ask me in a post - how is it that a Spirit can be the Father of flesh? Then when I pose the question whether the Messiah is the Son of God or not, suddenly you are agreeing he is. Please commit to one position or the other.

2. The Messiah didn't exist until he was born - Except in the mind and plan of God. The scripture says he was made of a woman, made under the law - Galatians 4:4 (How could you exist before you were made?)

A good example of this is found in Revelation 13:8 where it mentions the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Yet you know this could only be in the mind and plan of God. Because he wasn't actually slain until around 26-36 AD during the time of Pilate.

3. Of course the Son is distinct from his Father. The Father is the eternal Spirit and the Son was a human fleshly body. The question is who was it in that body? The answer is found in several verses including John 14:10 and Colossians 2:9-10

Now I will ask you: Why did he say when asked to show them the Father - if you have seen me you have seen the Father? John 14:8-9 (Surely you won't say they just look alike, when the Father is an invisible Spirit.)

Also note that Isaiah 40:3 mentions a voice crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of YHWH, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. When you get to the New Testament who does that voice turn out to be? (Answer - John the Baptist Matthew 3:3 )
So now I ask you: Who did John prepare the way for and Who showed up? (Answer - the Messiah who was YHWH manifest in the flesh)
 
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YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
1. There is only one God.
2. That one God is a Spirit - John 4:24
3 That one God is a Holy Spirit. (The Holy Spirit isn't another person.)

So what do you believe? Do you believe the holy spirit is one of the "three equal persons" called God?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I have tossed this around for a while and have thought that Jesus was not really breaking the sabbath because He knew what was meant by "keeping the Sabbath" and not working on the Sabbath. So He was keeping the Sabbath how God wanted.
I have also thought that laws are like that. Sometimes one has to break a law in order to keep another. The priests broke the Sabbath by working on it. But they were keeping the more important command of being priests and doing that work. In this way they were loving God and their neighbour by breaking the Sabbath.
It is the same with Jesus. He was breaking the Sabbath by working/healing on it, but that work was love for His neighbour, a more important command.
The priests and anyone also would have worked on the Sabbath by pulling someone's donkey out of a pit on the Sabbath.
It was not that Jesus was not breaking the Sabbath, it was just that He was obeying a more important commandment by breaking the Sabbath.
In this way His breaking of the Sabbath was not sin.
Jesus kept the Law of God, not necessarily the law of other people as they may have interpreted God's law and expected people to keep their law interpretation. Jehovah specifically spoke about the Sabbath day and its observance given through Moses. Jesus did not break the Sabbath law of God and he said so by reasoning with the Jewish accusers, looking for any loophole.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
So if someone believes that God is 3 in 1, or 1 in 3, and someone believes that all three are equal to each other and someone claims Jesus as God but not equal to the other 2, and someone believes that the Father,, Son and holy spirit are not equal or are not all "God," that means they all are in the same faith? (No matter what wikipedia says...it's what the Bible says that makes sense.)
It says at Hebrews 4:2 -
"We also had the good news preached to us, just as the Israelites did. However, the message they heard didn’t help them because they weren’t united in faith with the ones who listened to it.
CJB
(Interesting verse) The message they all heard did not unite them in faith. Very interesting.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
Let's try another one.

Which one is the Deceiver? A or B?

A. Trinitarians Claim God as coming in the flesh.
B. Christians Claim Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh.

For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those not acknowledging Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist. (2 John 1:7)
Trinitarians are Christians so your questions don't make sense.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
So if someone believes that God is 3 in 1, or 1 in 3, and someone believes that all three are equal to each other and someone claims Jesus as God but not equal to the other 2, and someone believes that the Father,, Son and holy spirit are not equal or are not all "God," that means they all are in the same faith? (No matter what wikipedia says...it's what the Bible says that makes sense.)

I don't make the rules. They are all under the same umbrella of Christianity, yes. Figure it out amongst yourselves.
 

Starlight

Spiritual but not religious, new age and omnist
Depends on how one interprets this.

From the Catholic perspective, Jesus is of God; or to put it another way, Jesus is of the "essence" of God.

If you're not familiar with the word "essence", basically it can be summed up as "the whole is greater than just the sum of its parts". Thus, Jesus is of God but is not literally God, such as when Jesus said that he and the Father were "one". BTW, the same is also true of the Holy Spirit.

Thus, the Catholic use of the Trinitarian concept is not that there are three gods.
No the Catholic christian doctrine is that Jesus is literally God.
The Catholic christian doctrine is that God is one divine Being and at the same time three persons
 
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
No the Catholic christian doctrine is that Jesus is literally God.
The Catholic christian doctrine is that God is one divine Being and at the same time three persons
This concept was built on the use of "essence", especially since three cannot be one without it. The NT was written in Koine Greek and thus reflects that. If it had been written in modern English, it undoubtedly would have been worded differently.
 

Starlight

Spiritual but not religious, new age and omnist
This concept was built on the use of "essence", especially since three cannot be one without it. The NT was written in Koine Greek and thus reflects that. If it had been written in modern English, it undoubtedly would have been worded differently.
In the Catholic christian doctrine of the trinity Essence has the same meaning as Being. Three words is used for the same concept essence/being/nature

According to the trinity doctrine God is one divine Being/Essence.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
In the Catholic christian doctrine of the trinity Essence has the same meaning as Being. Three words is used for the same concept essence/being/nature

According to the trinity doctrine God is one divine Being/Essence.
Essence (Latin: essentia) is a polysemic term, used in philosophy and theology as a designation for the property or set of properties that make an entity or substance what it fundamentally is, and which it has by necessity, and without which it loses its identity. Essence is contrasted with accident: a property that the entity or substance has contingently, without which the substance can still retain its identity.

The concept originates rigorously with Aristotle (although it can also be found in Plato),[1] who used the Greek expression to ti ên einai (τὸ τί ἦν εἶναι,[2] literally meaning "the what it was to be" and corresponding to the scholastic term quiddity) or sometimes the shorter phrase to ti esti (τὸ τί ἐστι,[3] literally meaning "the what it is" and corresponding to the scholastic term haecceity) for the same idea. This phrase presented such difficulties for its Latin translators that they coined the word essentia (English "essence") to represent the whole expression. For Aristotle and his scholastic followers, the notion of essence is closely linked to that of definition (ὁρισμός horismos).
[4]-- Essence - Wikipedia
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
1. You seem to be all over the board. First you ask me in a post - how is it that a Spirit can be the Father of flesh? Then when I pose the question whether the Messiah is the Son of God or not, suddenly you are agreeing he is. Please commit to one position or the other.

What I am saying is that the Father is the Father of Jesus because Jesus had a spirit and that spirit came from heaven to dwell as a man in a physical body. Jesus the man is the whole man, body and spirit and God prepared a body for Jesus and places Jesus spirit in that body.
If the Son was just the body (as you seem to be saying) and not the spirit in the body also then God would not be His Father. That would be like saying God is the Father of the rocks.

2. The Messiah didn't exist until he was born - Except in the mind and plan of God. The scripture says he was made of a woman, made under the law - Galatians 4:4 (How could you exist before you were made?)

A good example of this is found in Revelation 13:8 where it mentions the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Yet you know this could only be in the mind and plan of God. Because he wasn't actually slain until around 26-36 AD during the time of Pilate.

Jesus is from heaven, from the Father and returned there.
John 16:28
I came forth from the Father and have come into the world; I am leaving the world again and going to the Father.”

He was the Son of God from eternity. It is the Son through whom all things were made.
Heb 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

It is the prehuman Jesus who had a mind to take the form of a servant and become a man.
Phil 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

It is the man Jesus who did not exist as a man before His conception. The eternal Son existed before He became a man but the human Son did not exist.

3. Of course the Son is distinct from his Father. The Father is the eternal Spirit and the Son was a human fleshly body. The question is who was it in that body? The answer is found in several verses including John 14:10 and Colossians 2:9-10

John 14:10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
In the spirit of Jesus is the Father who is in Jesus as Jesus is in the Father. God cannot be split up. Father and Son are together in the one Spirit.
Col 2:9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10 and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority.
The fullness of deity dwells in Jesus because in Him is the Father and Holy Spirit. Jesus is the ruler of creation and has all power and authority in heaven and on earth. (Matt 28:16 Rev 3:14)

Now I will ask you: Why did he say when asked to show them the Father - if you have seen me you have seen the Father? John 14:8-9 (Surely you won't say they just look alike, when the Father is an invisible Spirit.)

Jesus said "if you have seen me you have seen the Father because Jesus is the image of the invisible God and is the imprint of God's nature and has the glory of the Father. (Col 1:15 Heb 1:3)
That does not mean He is the Father however imo.
They do not look alive because the Father is not a man but they are identical in other ways.
The Father and the Son both come and make their dwelling with and in someone who loves Jesus and obeys His teaching and this happens when we receive the Holy Spirit (in whom is the Father and Son) John 14:23


Also note that Isaiah 40:3 mentions a voice crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of YHWH, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. When you get to the New Testament who does that voice turn out to be? (Answer - John the Baptist Matthew 3:3 )
So now I ask you: Who did John prepare the way for and Who showed up? (Answer - the Messiah who was YHWH manifest in the flesh)

I used Isa 40:3 earlier today to show that Jesus is Yahweh.
I also use other NT quotes from the OT which are about Yahweh in the OT and about Jesus in the NT to show that Jesus is Yahweh.
To me, as a Trinitarian it does not mean that the Father is His Son.
Yahweh was alone spreading out the heavens but the Son did it. (Heb 1:10 Psalm 102:25 Isa 44:24)
To me that means that the Son and Father are the one God. The Father is in the Son and the Son in the Father and the Spirit of God is the Spirit of Christ, the one Spirit (Romans 8:9 Eph 4:4)
Yahweh is one (Deut 6:4) in a compound way.
I and the Father are one means one "thing" ("one" is in the neuter and so it means one thing)
Of course they agree, that goes without saying, but that is not what Jesus meant and the Jews knew it and so wanted to stone Him. (John 10:30)
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Jesus kept the Law of God, not necessarily the law of other people as they may have interpreted God's law and expected people to keep their law interpretation. Jehovah specifically spoke about the Sabbath day and its observance given through Moses. Jesus did not break the Sabbath law of God and he said so by reasoning with the Jewish accusers, looking for any loophole.

In a strict legalistic sense Jesus did break the Sabbath. But as I said, keeping all the law literally is not what it is about, it is keeping the spirit of the Law and prioritising if necessary.
The Jews were legalistic and they saw correctly that Jesus broke the Sabbath, but that does not mean that He sinned.
So yes you are right but I think I am right also.
Anyway all this is about the following verse.
John 5:18 Because of this, the Jews tried all the harder to kill Him. Not only was He breaking the Sabbath, but He was even calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
You want to say that this is just showing that the Jews only thought that Jesus was making Himself equal to God by calling Himself the Son of God. You want to agree with the Jews that Jesus is not equal to God.
The Jews knew what Jesus was claiming when He said that He is the Son of God. He was not saying He is the first of God's creation but was saying that God is His Father and so He has the same nature as God, equality of nature.
This is what the scriptures also teach in other places surely.
Heb 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power.
The Son gets His nature from His Father true, that is why the Son is the Son and not the Father.
When did this happen? He has always had the same nature. He was there in the beginning with God, the beginning being the beginning of all creation. If it was not the beginning of all creation then it would not be called the beginning.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
This is saying the same imo.
The Word is exactly like His Father and was not created but has always been with God.
The Father is in the Son and the Son in the Father. If we had been there in the beginning and pointed to God we would be pointing to the Father and Son who are the One Spirit and this Spirit is everywhere (1Kings 8:27)
But I do get carried away when speaking on this topic. Your turn.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
The Jews were legalistic and they saw correctly that Jesus broke the Sabbath, but that does not mean that He sinned.
Judaism was and is what we call a "desert religion", namely that there's much diversity found within it. Even modern day Catholicism has drifted in this direction that's sortofa reflection of the rather loosey-goosey Italian legal and cultural system.

Thus, the Hillel School of Jesus' time, for example, would really not qualify for being "legalistic", which does help explain why Jesus did attract a following in eretz Israel, and not just amongst the "God-Fearers" [Gentiles who believed in the One God].
 
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