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YHWH: Worship ONE GOD, not MANY GODS. Worship Me, alone!

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
What I meant was that Jesus had not been born yet when the angel appeared in the burning bush so if I said Jesus I obviously meant the pre human Jesus.
Why would Jesus need to be born if he was already pre-existing?

And why is there a separation between GOD and Jesus if Jesus is God.

And how can Jesus be God’s Son if Jesus is God?

And how can Jesus (whom you say is God) be sent by GOD … if God is God and Jesus is God then surely there is a problem with the definition of the word ‘God’… something I created a post for but NO TRINITARIAN engages in (which is not a wonder since if the word, ‘God’ was properly defined then trinity would choke on itself:
  • In the beginning was the word of the Father, the most glorious ruler
  • And the word of the most glorious ruler was with him
  • And the word was the most glorious ruling word: ‘Let there be light’
  • Through that word of the most high God all things were created and without that word nothing that was created was created.
I do believe Jesus was begotten in Mary and was born as a human, the descendant of David through Mary. I also believe other passages which tell us of Jesus pre existence before becoming a man, and that He is the Son of God and so has the nature of His Father and is equal to His Father in that way and that He has a Father/Son relationship with His Father always and since He became a man His Father is now His God, which does not stop Jesus from being our God.
I would beg you to provide an example of a son who was equal to his Father but I know that you would come up with some nonsense so wide of the mark it wouldn’t be worth you even spending the time deciding on a satanic response! It can clearly be seen that the Son is always being GRANTED his needs and being empowered BY THE FATHER. How do you claim an equality on that basis: where is there a reciprocal granting from the son to the Father?
[edit: A reciprocal granting would still mean inequality seeing that the thing granted to another would have even missing from the granted one… not equality]

And even as Jesus STATES that the Father is greater than he, and that he prays the Father before using his granted powers, and that all he does is because the Father is in him (via the Father’s Holy Spirit) and that he does nothing that he hasn’t first seen the Father do… you say that Jesus is equal to the Father? What a strange definition of equality?
All these and more are shown in the scriptures.
No they are not. ‘Scriptures’ here for you is what you mistakenly reassign from the ideology, ‘TRINITY’. Trinity, is your scriptures!
 
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moorea944

Well-Known Member
Why would Jesus need to be born if he was already pre-existing?

And why is there a separation between GOD and Jesus if Jesus is God.

And how can Jesus be God’s Son if Jesus is God?

And how can Jesus (whom you say is God) be sent by GOD … if God is God and Jesus is God then surely there is a problem with the definition of the word ‘God’… something I created a post for but NO TRINITARIAN engages in (which is not a wonder since if the word, ‘God’ was properly defined then trinity would choke on itself:
  • In the beginning was the word of the Father, the most glorious ruler
  • And the word of the most glorious ruler was with him
  • And the word was the most glorious ruling word: ‘Let there be light’
  • Through that word of the most high God all things were created and without that word nothing that was created was created.
I would beg you to provide an example of a sin who was equal to his Father but I know that you would come up with some nonsense so wide of the mark it wouldn’t be worth you even spending the time deciding a satanic response! It can clearly be seen that the Son is always being GRANTED his needs and being empowered BY THE FATHER. How do you claim an equality on that basis: where is there a reciprocal granting from the son to the Father?

And even as Jesus STATES that the Father is greater than he, and that he prays the Father before using his granted powers, and that all he does is because the Father is in him (via the Father’s Holy Spirit) and that he does nothing that he hasn’t first seen the Father do… you say that Jesus is equal to the Father? What a strange definition of equality?
No they are not. ‘Scriptures’ here for you is what you mistakenly reassign from the ideology, ‘TRINITY’. Trinity, is your scriptures!

They're not going to get it or understand what your saying because they've been told his all through their life. Sad....

Great post though!! Thanks!!
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
So the so-called prehuman Jesus of trinity fallacy was an Angel (messenger) AND ALMIGHTY GOD?

Amazing pagan god that subordinates himself and sends himself into his own creation… and glorifies himself in overcoming sin in his own self even though true God cannot sin …

As a human the Son of God resisted the temptations that humans have. He did not sin. Jesus said "Why do you call me good, only God is good". His is good so has to be God.
The Father is the only true God and He has a Son who has the same nature as His Father. The Son is in the Father and the Father is in the Son. The one God is actually made up of more than one person (for want of a better word).
The Son is naturally subordinate to His Father and was sent as a messenger (angel) who is YHWH and as a man into the world to die for our sins.
This is no pagan concept, it comes from the OT where the Messiah is called the Son of God and the companion of God.
We see from the NT that scriptures in the OT about YHWH are sometimes specifically about the Son. (Ps 102:25/Heb 1:10----Isa 8:14/1Peter 2:8 etc) and we see that after humbling Himself to become a man the Son inherits His Father's name (Heb 1:3-4/Phil 2:9) and at the name of Jesus (YHWH) we worship.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
They're not going to get it or understand what your saying because they've been told his all through their life. Sad....

Great post though!! Thanks!!

I'm not going to get it unless it agrees with scripture.
It's sad that you cannot see from passages like John 1:3, Col 1:15,16 etc that Jesus was not created.
Or do you see that? You are not really open about your beliefs.
Why shouldn't the Son submit to the will of His Father who gives Him life?
Why shouldn't the Son be equal in nature to His Father?
Why shouldn't the Son be our God when Thomas says He is?
Does that mean that He is another God alongside His Father? No. The 2 are one God. The Father in the Son and the Son in the Father. Just as the Church is the one body of Christ because we are joined in spirit to the Spirit of Christ. Just as a husband and wife become one flesh.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Why would Jesus need to be born if he was already pre-existing?

So that He could be a human and die for our sins.

And why is there a separation between GOD and Jesus if Jesus is God.

There is no separation. The Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father. There is a distinction however.

And how can Jesus be God’s Son if Jesus is God?

Jesus has the same nature as His Father. they are equal in nature and in all things (see Heb 1:1-4 and Phil 2) but the Son is the Son and get His existence from His Father and submits to His Father. It has always been like that. The Father has been the Father always and the Son has been the Son always and they have the same Spirit.

And how can Jesus (whom you say is God) be sent by GOD … if God is God and Jesus is God then surely there is a problem with the definition of the word ‘God’… something I created a post for but NO TRINITARIAN engages in (which is not a wonder since if the word, ‘God’ was properly defined then trinity would choke on itself:
  • In the beginning was the word of the Father, the most glorious ruler
  • And the word of the most glorious ruler was with him
  • And the word was the most glorious ruling word: ‘Let there be light’
  • Through that word of the most high God all things were created and without that word nothing that was created was created.
You forgot that I explained before that the scriptures tell us that the Word IS the Son and not just something from the mouth of God.
Heb 1:1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.
No doubt trinitarians have told you these things in the past and you keep forgetting them. That is what happens. It is called confirmation bias. You see and remember what you want to see and remember and forget and the rest and/or gloss over the rest.

I would beg you to provide an example of a sin who was equal to his Father but I know that you would come up with some nonsense so wide of the mark it wouldn’t be worth you even spending the time deciding a satanic response! It can clearly be seen that the Son is always being GRANTED his needs and being empowered BY THE FATHER. How do you claim an equality on that basis: where is there a reciprocal granting from the son to the Father?

All sons are equal in nature to their fathers.
Heb 1:1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. 3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.

The Son of God has His Father's nature and glory (and Yahweh gives His glory to no other----(Isa 42:8)
The Son owns all that the Father has (John 16:15) everything.
The Son is equal to the Father (Phil 2) but does not take what is His but waits to be given it.
The Son grants this to the Father. Even though the Son is equal, He submits to His Father. It is a relationship of love and they glorify each other. Jesus being called by the name above all names actually gives glory to His Father. (Phil 2) Jesus submitting to His Father's will gives glory to His Father, and the Father in turn glorifies the Son.

And even as Jesus STATES that the Father is greater than he, and that he prays the Father before using his granted powers, and that all he does is because the Father is in him (via the Father’s Holy Spirit) and that he does nothing that he hasn’t first seen the Father do… you say that Jesus is equal to the Father? What a strange definition of equality?

Why do you say that the Father is in the Son via the Holy Spirit? The Father was in the Son and the Son in the Father even when Jesus was a baby. The Holy Spirit came to Jesus at His baptism to anoint Him for His public ministry.
As I said, all that the Father has belongs to His Son and the Son is the Son and does not usurp the authority of His Father, and this goes also and especially when Jesus was a man on earth, living as an ordinary man, relying on His God and Father for all things.
You say that the Son's submission to His Father is a strange definition of equality, but God's ideas are not our ideas and as Jesus said the greatest in the Kingdom of God is the servant of all. (Matt 23:11)
 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
I'm not going to get it unless it agrees with scripture.
It's sad that you cannot see from passages like John 1:3, Col 1:15,16 etc that Jesus was not created.
Or do you see that? You are not really open about your beliefs.
Why shouldn't the Son submit to the will of His Father who gives Him life?
Why shouldn't the Son be equal in nature to His Father?
Why shouldn't the Son be our God when Thomas says He is?
To these questions Jesus would say:
  • “Get thee behind me, Satan! Worship the Father alone, for He alone is worthy of worship!!”
    Does that mean that He is another God alongside His Father? No. The 2 are one God.
OUR God is ONE.

But you just said yourself that your god is TWO!
The Father in the Son and the Son in the Father.
This simply means that they agree - THE SON’s Will is to do THE FATHER’S Will. The Father’s Will is first… and the son’s Will is to DO THE WILL OF HIM WHO SENT HIM…:
  • “My food,” said Jesus, “is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work.” (John 4:34)
  • The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him.” (John 8:29)
  • John 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will remain in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and remain in His love.
  • John 16:32 "Look, an hour is coming and has already come when you will be scattered, each to his own home, and you will leave Me all alone. Yet I am not alone, because the Father is with Me.
  • 1 John 3:22 and we will receive from Him whatever we ask, because we keep His commandments and do what is pleasing in His sight.
  • John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
  • “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.” (Luke 22:42)
These verses testify that Jesus’ Will is to do the Will of his Father. In this way he is IN THE FATHER and the Father is in Him!

The latter verse verse from Luke shows Jesus FALTERING did to the stress and trauma of his coming death. Jesus prays the Father is if there could be another way for salvation to be carried out without his death… (his Will) but then recovers himself back to the Will of the Father that this was the only way, his death!!
Just as the Church is the one body of Christ because we are joined in spirit to the Spirit of Christ. Just as a husband and wife become one flesh.
Husband and wife are ‘one flesh’ BECAUSE EVE was taken out of Adam.

Male and female are ONE MAN, one ADAM.

Remember that Adam was created as ONE MAN and God took out of him TRAITS (called ‘Rib’) and fashioned them into another living Being which Adam called ‘Wo-MAN’, which means, “Taken out of Man”. THEREFORE A COMPLETE MAN, a complete ‘ADAM’ is a unit of a male and a female…. NOT LIKE WHAT YOU ARE SAYING…

And, in any case, the Church is GOD’s CHURCH, of which JESUS IS THE HEAD, the leader of God’s Church, and the Congregation is the BODY.
  • And he [Jesus] is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. (1 Cor 1:18)
And since when is your god (whom you say Jesus is) firstborn from the dead… when did your god die?

Just as, The SHEEP are OWNED BY GOD - but Jesus is the APPOINTED SHEPHERD of the flock. The Shepherd is not the owner of the sheep, rather, the shepherd is a SERVANT to the master who owns the sheep!
 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Great post though!! Thanks!!
Thank you. I was inspired…..!

Yes, I know but it allows me to study deeper than I would if there was no opposition.

Muscle training requires resistance. Without the resistance the strength and power would be less likely to develop!

Yes, it hurts… it hurts like hell to be constantly fighting against wrongness - but we are safe…! Imagine what the apostles had to suffer for saying what we are saying here!?

I love studying the word of God… I love to know that I have the clarity that is given to me.., and for years I was always asked if anyone else believes as I do and I couldn’t answer fully - but now I see you and a few others are there to support the truth that I know from the scriptures.
  • God our Father be praised! Jesus our Lord be praised!
  • God our Father be honored! Jesus our Lord be honored!
  • God our Father be glorified! Jesus our Lord be glorified!
  • God our Father alone be worshipped: Yahweh alone be worshipped!
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Thank you. I was inspired…..!

Yes, I know but it allows me to study deeper than I would if there was no opposition.

Muscle training requires resistance. Without the resistance the strength and power would be less likely to develop!

Yes, it hurts… it hurts like hell to be constantly fighting against wrongness - but we are safe…! Imagine what the apostles had to suffer for saying what we are saying here!?

I love studying the word of God… I love to know that I have the clarity that is given to me.., and for years I was always asked if anyone else believes as I do and I couldn’t answer fully - but now I see you and a few others are there to support the truth that I know from the scriptures.
  • God our Father be praised! Jesus our Lord be praised!
  • God our Father be honored! Jesus our Lord be honored!
  • God our Father be glorified! Jesus our Lord be glorified!
  • God our Father alone be worshipped: Yahweh alone be worshipped!

From experience I know it can be hard to keep faith in the face of resistance.
Some people lose their faith unfortunately and the faith of others is changed for the good or not depending which direction they take on hearing that what they believe is not completely true and hearing what the scriptures actually say.
In that vein I would point to your last line.
>>>God our Father alone be worshipped: Yahweh alone be worshipped!<<<
and point out that the scriptures do tell us that Jesus is Yahweh. I have shown you this in other posts.
The scriptures also tell us that Jesus is God, also shown in other posts.
The scriptures also tell us to worship God. I do not see places where they say to worship the Father alone.
And if you can find a place where it says this I would say that in worshipping the Father alone we should also be worshipping the Son who is in the Father.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
To these questions Jesus would say:
  • “Get thee behind me, Satan! Worship the Father alone, for He alone is worthy of worship!!”
Psalm 2:10 Therefore, you kings, be wise;
be warned, you rulers of the earth.
11 Serve the Lord with fear
and celebrate his rule with trembling.
12 Kiss his son, or he will be angry
and your way will lead to your destruction,
for his wrath can flare up in a moment.
Blessed are all who take refuge in him.

I am told that the phrase "Kiss the son" is actually saying to worship Him.

Heb 1:6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
“Let all God’s angels worship him.”

This is even more straight forward.

John 20:27Then Jesus said to Thomas, “Put your finger here and look at My hands. Reach out your hand and put it into My side. Stop doubting and believe.” 28Thomas replied, “My Lord and my God!” 29Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

The God of Thomas is our God.

OUR God is ONE.

But you just said yourself that your god is TWO! This simply means that they agree - THE SON’s Will is to do THE FATHER’S Will. The Father’s Will is first… and the son’s Will is to DO THE WILL OF HIM WHO SENT HIM…:

Deut 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. .........."
That word "one" can be a compound one.
John 10:30 I and the Father are one.” 31At this, the Jews again picked up stones to stone Him.…
That word "one" is neuter gender indicating "one thing". That would be why the Jews wanted to stone Him when He said that.

Husband and wife are ‘one flesh’ BECAUSE EVE was taken out of Adam.

Male and female are ONE MAN, one ADAM.

Remember that Adam was created as ONE MAN and God took out of him TRAITS (called ‘Rib’) and fashioned them into another living Being which Adam called ‘Wo-MAN’, which means, “Taken out of Man”. THEREFORE A COMPLETE MAN, a complete ‘ADAM’ is a unit of a male and a female…. NOT LIKE WHAT YOU ARE SAYING…

1Cor 6:16 Or don’t you know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, “The two will become one flesh.” 17But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with Him in spirit.…

It is the act of intercourse which makes us one body.
2 bodies become one.
In the Hebrew that word "one" at Gen 2:24 is a compound one just as it can be in Deut 6:4.

And, in any case, the Church is GOD’s CHURCH, of which JESUS IS THE HEAD, the leader of God’s Church, and the Congregation is the BODY.
  • And he [Jesus] is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. (1 Cor 1:18)
1Cor 6:16 Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, “The two will become one flesh.” 17 But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in spirit.
Romans 8:15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

All Christians are joined to the Spirit of the Lord and so are joined to each other as the "one" body of Christ.

And since when is your god (whom you say Jesus is) firstborn from the dead… when did your god die?

The man Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews, died on the cross. He died just as all men die and His soul lived on as Matt 10:28 tell us.

Just as, The SHEEP are OWNED BY GOD - but Jesus is the APPOINTED SHEPHERD of the flock. The Shepherd is not the owner of the sheep, rather, the shepherd is a SERVANT to the master who owns the sheep!

Psalm 23:1 The LORD is my shepherd, I lack nothing.
John 10:11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. 12 The hired hand is not the shepherd, and the sheep are not his own. When he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf pounces on them and scatters the flock. 13The man runs away because he is a hired servant and is unconcerned for the sheep.…
1Cor 6:19Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore glorify God with your body.
Romans 8:8Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God. 9You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.
Eph 4:3 and with diligence to preserve the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism;…

Jesus is our shepherd and owns us and His spirit is in us, the Spirit of Christ, which is the Spirit of God.
 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
THE GREATEST LIE IS COMPOSED OF 95% TRUTH.

This way, the unwary agree wholeheartedly with the LIAR and is taken into their confidence (taken into the Bosom of the false speaker).

Once the hearers are captured by the Satanic speaker, the same drops in the fallacy that drives the hears towards the DARK SIDE.

Brian, that’s exactly what you just did - except that my name is not Anakin Skywalker (“The Betrayer”)!

From experience I know it can be hard to keep faith in the face of resistance.
Some people lose their faith unfortunately and the faith of others is changed for the good or not depending which direction they take on hearing that what they believe is not completely true and hearing what the scriptures actually say.
Everything you said up to thus point is true… in fact it’s more like that there is nothing to deny!

That is the 95% worth!

But then you drop in the 5% lie:
In that vein I would point to your last line.
>>>God our Father alone be worshipped: Yahweh alone be worshipped!<<<
and point out that the scriptures do tell us that Jesus is Yahweh. I have shown you this in other posts.
The scriptures also tell us that Jesus is God, also shown in other posts.
The scriptures also tell us to worship God. I do not see places where they say to worship the Father alone.
And if you can find a place where it says this I would say that in worshipping the Father alone we should also be worshipping the Son who is in the Father.
Jesus is not YAHWEH. But that is the hook that you use to try to deceive readers of this post and elsewhere that you may post the same fallacy.

Jesus is named from birth, with the Hebrew name, ‘Yeshua’ - which is ‘Joshua’ but westernised into ‘Jesus’.

Names gave meanings so far higher than how we name our children today as to be almost attributes of a person. The name (let’s use ‘Jesus’) means (and this is open source):
  • "He saves,"
which conforms with Matthew 1: 21 where the Angel tells the Virgin Mary that:
  • "She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name ‘Jesus’, for He will save His people from their sins”
Not only this but Jewish boys were named with a name from at least one of their ancestors. Searching the lineage of Jesus shows that there was indeed an ancestor in the line of Mary whose name was ‘Joshua’. So no problem there as it is to be noted that Mary did not raise any objections.

Now contrast this with the what the Angel told Zechariah. The devout Jewish priest of the Jerusalem temple was told to call the son from his wife, Elizabeth, ‘John’. But Zechariah was anxious that, as such a devout priest and part time HIGH PRIEST in the temple, he should be seen to conform with Jewish laws… and he baulked, no doubt railed, against the instructions of the Angel because there was no one in his lineage called by the name ‘John’ (or Hebrew equivalent). It is no doubt, pretty obvious indeed, that this would be why the Angel clamped his mouth shut until he agreed, nine months later, to follow the angels command (but yet the command of YAHWEH who dispatched the Angel to deliver the command to Zechariah. The Angel has authority to force God’s commands since what God says must be accomplished!! There should be no disagreement on that score!)

There are more points regarding the births of John the Baptist and Jesus but they are not for discussion in this post!

So, ‘He saves’… Joshua, of Moses and Joshua, was the one who led the children of Israel into the promised land. In effect, Joshua ‘Saved’ them into the promise land! And it is Jesus’ mission to do the same to the children of God.. Save, or lead, them into the kingdom of GOD:
  • “For the Son of Man has come to seek and save that which was lost.” (Luke 19:10)
It is the ‘Son of Man’ whom Jesus refers himself to as being the saviour. And, indeed, GOD, YAHWEH, appointed this ‘Son of Man’ to that position:
  • “Again Jesus said, ‘Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.’” (John 20:21)
  • “Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will bring justice to the nations.” (Isaiah 42:1)
  • As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. Yahweh, the Father, spoke from Heaven saying: “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil... (Matthew 3:17-17, 4:1)
  • “You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached—how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.“ (Acts 10:37-38)
All these verses point to Jesus being EMPOWERED …BY YAHWEH and shows that Jesus was the ‘Servant’ of Yahweh as seen in:
  • Jesus said, “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day” (John 6:40). ... Jesus also said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God” (Heb. 10:9)
How do you say that the great God, Yahweh, is the one who is a servant to himself?

The name, ‘Yahweh’ (“YHWH”), means “I Am”. This is to say that the attributes of the naked one NEVER CHANGE, they are from ETERNITY TO ETERNITY:
  • “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.” (Rev 1:8)
In contrast, Jesus says:
  • “I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.” (Rev 1:18)
Yahweh was never ‘Dead’… but Jesus was ‘Dead’.

I shouldn’t waste time and effort pointing this out to you as I know you actually don’t believe it - you just say it as you had no where else to go with the trinity fallacy.

No one reading the scriptures in a true light EVER says that Jesus is YAHWEH.

Yahweh said he would send a saviour in time to come to save the people from eternal death. And indeed, in the fullness of time YAHWEH’s words ‘put on flesh’ / ‘came to fruition’ - for what Yahweh speaks must be accomplished!

That saviour was Jesus, called ‘Christ’… and ‘Christ’ means ‘Anointed One’.

And who ‘anointed’ Jesus: GOD! The Father!:

Jesus is entitled: Messiah, Savior, Son of God, Son of Man, etc. Jesus is also called a High Priest (Hebrews 2:17; 4:14).

A “priest” means ‘one who mediates in religious event or service’. It also means ‘one who is holy or set apart’ to perform those services.

And these aspects are exacted by:
  • “For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Jesus Christ (1 Tim 2:5)
  • “If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside, what about the one whom the Father set apart [Sanctified] as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? (John 10:35-36)
Brian2, how much more should I write showing that you are an unjustified opposer… you do not believe what you write but are merely opposing the truth … for what? For why?
 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Psalm 2:10 Therefore, you kings, be wise;
be warned, you rulers of the earth.
11 Serve the Lord with fear
and celebrate his rule with trembling.
12 Kiss his son, or he will be angry
and your way will lead to your destruction,
for his wrath can flare up in a moment.
Blessed are all who take refuge in him.

I am told that the phrase "Kiss the son" is actually saying to worship Him.

Heb 1:6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
“Let all God’s angels worship him.”

This is even more straight forward.

John 20:27Then Jesus said to Thomas, “Put your finger here and look at My hands. Reach out your hand and put it into My side. Stop doubting and believe.” 28Thomas replied, “My Lord and my God!” 29Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

The God of Thomas is our God.



Deut 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. .........."
That word "one" can be a compound one.
John 10:30 I and the Father are one.” 31At this, the Jews again picked up stones to stone Him.…
That word "one" is neuter gender indicating "one thing". That would be why the Jews wanted to stone Him when He said that.



1Cor 6:16 Or don’t you know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, “The two will become one flesh.” 17But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with Him in spirit.…

It is the act of intercourse which makes us one body.
2 bodies become one.
In the Hebrew that word "one" at Gen 2:24 is a compound one just as it can be in Deut 6:4.

1Cor 6:16 Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, “The two will become one flesh.” 17 But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in spirit.
Romans 8:15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

All Christians are joined to the Spirit of the Lord and so are joined to each other as the "one" body of Christ.



The man Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews, died on the cross. He died just as all men die and His soul lived on as Matt 10:28 tell us.



Psalm 23:1 The LORD is my shepherd, I lack nothing.
John 10:11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. 12 The hired hand is not the shepherd, and the sheep are not his own. When he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf pounces on them and scatters the flock. 13The man runs away because he is a hired servant and is unconcerned for the sheep.…
1Cor 6:19Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore glorify God with your body.
Romans 8:8Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God. 9You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.
Eph 4:3 and with diligence to preserve the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism;…

Jesus is our shepherd and owns us and His spirit is in us, the Spirit of Christ, which is the Spirit of God.
Knee-jerking irreverent responses does your belief no favours. I can’t reply to every comment you made but here are a few:
1Cor 6:19Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore glorify God with your body.
Do you see those words:
  • “…the Holy Spirit WHICH is in you, WHICH you received FROM GOD?”
Yes, the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, the Spirit of the Father, which is holy. Hence, every creation is by the power of God, the word of God, by His power, by His Spirit… everything was created by IT. It is FROM GOD and it is this power of God that Jesus received at his baptism and anointing:
  • “You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached—how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.“ (Acts 10:37-38)
(… see next post)
 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
(Follow on from previous post)

Psalm 23:1 The LORD is my shepherd, I lack nothing.
John 10:11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. 12 The hired hand is not the shepherd, and the sheep are not his own. When he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf pounces on them and scatters the flock. 13The man runs away because he is a hired servant and is unconcerned for the sheep.…
In the Old Testament GOD was DAVID’s shepherd… David remembered his days as a shepherd and acquainted it with his God. That is DAVID saying that God is his shepherd.

When GOD SENT JESUS, Jesus was GRANTED ‘sheep’ from his Father’s flock:

  • “I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. All I have is yours [What I have is what you gave me], and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled. … As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world… My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me…. Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.” (John 17: 6 … - … 24)
  • Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me.“ (John 17:25)

The man Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews, died on the cross. He died just as all men die and His soul lived on as Matt 10:28 tell us.
All human SOULS live on after death. It is only the BODY that dies and decays back to dust. The Spirit goes to rest with the Father who created it.

The SOUL is the Person, and as long as the spirit lives, even resting inert with God, there is a SOUL, an unembodied inert Soul.

A body without the spirit in it is an non-living soul.

A Spirit enlivening a body is a LIVING SOUL.

Thus, we can say ‘Jesus was dead while in the grave’… ‘His SOUL was not alive’. We can reference the PERSON (the Soul) by name whether dead or alive.

Therefore, only when the SPIRIT is destroyed, implying that the body has or will decay to dust, is the SOUL also destroyed… the PERSON is destroyed!
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
But then you drop in the 5% lie: Jesus is not YAHWEH. But that is the hook that you use to try to deceive readers of this post and elsewhere that you may post the same fallacy.

I give the scriptures which tell us the Jesus is Yahweh and you give speeches but say nothing about the scriptures I give.

All these verses point to Jesus being EMPOWERED …BY YAHWEH and shows that Jesus was the ‘Servant’ of Yahweh as seen in:
  • Jesus said, “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day” (John 6:40). ... Jesus also said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God” (Heb. 10:9)
How do you say that the great God, Yahweh, is the one who is a servant to himself?

I say that the Father sent His Son to become a man and servant. The Father did not send the Father to be the servant of the Father.

Yahweh was never ‘Dead’… but Jesus was ‘Dead’.

I shouldn’t waste time and effort pointing this out to you as I know you actually don’t believe it - you just say it as you had no where else to go with the trinity fallacy.

Why don't you just answer scriptures I give about what death is. Death of the body of a man does not mean death of the soul. (Matt 10:28)
Speeches won't do it. Just answer the scriptures.

A “priest” means ‘one who mediates in religious event or service’. It also means ‘one who is holy or set apart’ to perform those services.

And these aspects are exacted by:
  • “For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Jesus Christ (1 Tim 2:5)
  • “If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside, what about the one whom the Father set apart [Sanctified] as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? (John 10:35-36)
Brian2, how much more should I write showing that you are an unjustified opposer… you do not believe what you write but are merely opposing the truth … for what? For why?

Jesus the man who is priest and mediator. Does that mean He is not a man? No. Does that mean He is not God? No.
He is not the Father but has the same nature as His Father and so is divine and also became a man who has the nature of a servant. The Son of God, the Son of Man. The divine man whom Thomas say was his Lord and God, as we should.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Knee-jerking irreverent responses does your belief no favours.

Not irrelevant if they show that we should be worshipping Jesus, which they do.

Do you see those words:
  • “…the Holy Spirit WHICH is in you, WHICH you received FROM GOD?”
Yes, the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, the Spirit of the Father, which is holy. Hence, every creation is by the power of God, the word of God, by His power, by His Spirit… everything was created by IT. It is FROM GOD and it is this power of God that Jesus received at his baptism and anointing:
  • “You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached—how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.“ (Acts 10:37-38)
(… see next post)

That seems irrelevant to me.
Jesus was anointed with the Holy Spirit for His ministry on earth. So?
Before that Jesus was living as a normal man without the power of God for His ministry. He is the obedient servant who lived as a man but did as God wanted and this included miracles when He was given power to do them just as Elijah etc were given power to do them.
There is ONE Spirit. The Spirit of God IS the Spirit of Christ.
You ignore those scriptures I gave.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
(Follow on from previous post)

In the Old Testament GOD was DAVID’s shepherd… David remembered his days as a shepherd and acquainted it with his God. That is DAVID saying that God is his shepherd.

When GOD SENT JESUS, Jesus was GRANTED ‘sheep’ from his Father’s flock:

  • “I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. All I have is yours [What I have is what you gave me], and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled. … As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world… My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me…. Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.” (John 17: 6 … - … 24)
  • Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me.“ (John 17:25)

All human SOULS live on after death. It is only the BODY that dies and decays back to dust. The Spirit goes to rest with the Father who created it.

The SOUL is the Person, and as long as the spirit lives, even resting inert with God, there is a SOUL, an unembodied inert Soul.

A body without the spirit in it is an non-living soul.

A Spirit enlivening a body is a LIVING SOUL.

Thus, we can say ‘Jesus was dead while in the grave’… ‘His SOUL was not alive’. We can reference the PERSON (the Soul) by name whether dead or alive.

Therefore, only when the SPIRIT is destroyed, implying that the body has or will decay to dust, is the SOUL also destroyed… the PERSON is destroyed!

Everything the Father has belongs to Jesus (John 16:15) this includes the sheep which Jesus paid for with His own blood.
Jesus is the good shepherd who owns the sheep with His Father.
When Jesus was dead while in the grave His soul was ALIVE (Matt 10:28) unless you say that a the soul is the body, but Matt 10:28 shows that is not the case.
 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
I give the scriptures which tell us the Jesus is Yahweh and you give speeches but say nothing about the scriptures I give.
There are no verses that say that Jesus is Yahweh nor even any that imply such. It is pointless to argue about something that IS NOT!

But I do say, and scriptures says, that ‘YAHWEH’ is the personal, the proper name , the eternal name OF the deity whose TITLE is ‘GOD’ [of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob], as told to Moses BY the same deity entitled ‘GOD’. The MEANING of the name, ‘Yahweh’ is ‘I am’, which is short for ‘I am that I am’ (or similar wording) which describes an eternal entity that is complete in itself, that is IMMUTABLE, that is a constant… NEVER CHANGES:
  • “I, YAHWEH, do not change...“ (Malachi 3:6)
From the beginning, did YAHWEH promise to send a Saviour, a Messiah, to redeem mankind?
  • “Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will bring justice to the nations.” (Isaiah 42:1)
Did YAHWEH send a saviour, a messiah to redeem mankind?

Was the saviour YAHWEH?

‘Jesus’, is the name of the Messiah - ‘YAHWEH’ is the name of HIS GOD who anointed (consecrated … set him apart) and sent him to do his, Yahweh’s Will.
I say that the Father sent His Son to become a man and servant. The Father did not send the Father to be the servant of the Father.
Scriptures says that the Father sent his son. This is shown in the scriptures:
  • “For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.” (John 3:17)
  • “what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?” (John 10:36)
  • “You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached—how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.“ (Acts 10:37-38)
Yahweh ANOINTED his son with the Holy Spirit and power AND AFTER that event the son was SENT… He immediately went to be TESTED … and note that he was GRANTED the POWER BUT….. NOT THE AUTHORITY to use it….!! It was just prior to his death AFTER HE HAD ACCOMPLISHED what he was SENT TO DO that he was GRANTED all power AND THE ‘AUTHORITY’ to use it.:
  • “Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.” (Matthew 28:18)
Prior to this, EACH TIME Jesus performed a miracle he first prayed to YAHWEH for the authority to use the Holy Spirit:
  • “I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me.” (John 11:42)
Jesus also stated plainly that he came to do the Will of the Father…
  • “Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second.” (Hebrews 10:9)
The second part of the verse confirms that YAHWEH has removed Adam as Son of God in order to establish Jesus as that Son of God.

And it is as a result of Jesus’ achievement:
  • “For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,” (Phil 2:9)
  • “I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better….that raised Christ from the dead and seated him in the place of honor at God’s right hand in the heavenly realms.” (Ephesians 1:17-20)
And I showed you that when the apostles were also ANOINTED with the Holy Spirit THEY TOO performed miracles far exceeding anything anyone had seen before… That it is the power of the Holy Spirit that enabled mankind to do the miracles that they did.

How many times does scripture say that Jesus CHANGED?

You destroy yourself right from the start by saying Jesus BECAME A MAN… that is a CHANGE.

But scriptures says he was GRANTED power and the Holy Spirit. That requires a CHANGE.

And he was RAISED from the dead… That is a CHANGE of mortal position.

And he was GRANTED IMMORTALITY… THAT is a change of mortality status… Which requires a CHANGE…

And he was GRANTED all power and authority IN HEAVEN as well as in addition to previously on earth! That is a CHANGE.

And Jesus becomes ‘Eternal Father’ to those he selects as HIS OWN from among the sheep of his father - which his father GRANTED TO HIM.

And he was made KING at his anointing and will be enthroned at the end of time. CHANGE!!!

… And you say that Jesus is eternal Yahweh who never changes?
Why don't you just answer scriptures I give about what death is. Death of the body of a man does not mean death of the soul. (Matt 10:28)
Speeches won't do it. Just answer the scriptures.
I have answered you on that. I did not say anything different to what you said because death of the body does not mean DESTRUCTION of the soul.

What I disagreed with is that you think the soul is a separated part of a person… No! Soul IS the person. The ‘person’ is not DESTROYED

Does the scriptures ever use the word ‘Person’?
Jesus the man who is priest and mediator. Does that mean He is not a man? No. Does that mean He is not God? No.
Being a priest is a position of Office. And a priest IS a man because that is the label attached to the entity that is appointed to priesthood.

Jesus is a man appointed to priesthood BY YAHWEH:
  • “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.” (Acts 2:6)
  • “Others became priests without any oath, but he [Jesus] became a priest with an oath when God said to him: “The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind: ‘You are a priest forever.’” (Hebrews 7:20-21)
And being appointed (being CONSECRATED / SET APART) as priest is exactly one of the things that is the purpose of an anointment.
He is not the Father but has the same nature as His Father and so is divine and also became a man who has the nature of a servant. The Son of God, the Son of Man. The divine man whom Thomas say was his Lord and God, as we should.
How strange the trinity belief is… having to distinguish one person from another… Whoever said that Jesus is the father… No one!! Trinity says so and then knocks it’s own straw man down as if it was somehow making a point:
- The son is not the father … doh!!!

Yet when I ask you to define ‘Father’ and ‘Son’, you have no idea… (shhhh…) No, it’s not that you don’t have any idea what the difference is about father and son but rather that if you define if you would destroy the whole trinity fortress… oh dear.. no wonder you don’t answer!!! Tuh!!!
 
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Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Not irrelevant if they show that we should be worshipping Jesus, which they do.
Worshipping Jesus is worshipping a MAN, albeit a holy man empowered by God. A man, nonetheless:
  • “Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?” “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.” (Mark 14:61-62)
Here, Jesus confirms that he is the Son of God, the Messiah (The servant prophesied in Isaiah 42:1). Not only that but he says that he is ‘the Man’ who will be seated AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD.

But you say that Jesus is God sitting at the right hand of God!!!???
That seems irrelevant to me.
Dodge!!! Of course the truth is irrelevant to you! How can you be a believer of a lie and admit the truth when you see it!?
Jesus was anointed with the Holy Spirit for His ministry on earth. So?
You don’t understand what Jesus said… You don’t understand what the Apostles said… You don’t understand what ALMIGHTY GOD said?
YOU DO understand - but trying to reconcile it with the falsehood you have been sponges with has sponges your brain and confused your mind! The result is you struggling to recognise the truth.
Before that Jesus was living as a normal man without the power of God for His ministry. He is the obedient servant who lived as a man but did as God wanted and this included miracles when He was given power to do them just as Elijah etc were given power to do them.
BUT YOU SAID THAT JESUS IS GOD… 100% GOD!

But now you recognise that if Jesus IS GOD then it makes a farce of him living as an obedient servant UNTIL he was GIVEN POWER to perform miracles…, You are trying to blend the truth you have seen with the lies you have been sponges by trinity.
There is ONE Spirit. The Spirit of God IS the Spirit of Christ.
You ignore those scriptures I gave.
GOD, YAHWEH, ANOINTED Jesus WITH the Holy Spirit… Therefore, the Spirit Christ Jesus HAS is the same spirit GOD GAVE HIM!

You think your backwards logic washes with reality? You just admitted that Jesus was WITHOUT the Spirit of God in your previous paragraph, only to say in your next that he has the same spirit AS GOD… ignoring the middle part wherein Jesus IS GRANTED that spirit???

Amazing ….!
 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Thomas said that Jesus was his Lord and God. But there is only one true God for a Christian so Jesus and the Father must be one God with the Father in the Son and the Son in the Father, as Jesus said.
The Holy Spirit is the living waters that Jesus said He could give to the Samaritan woman at the well. The Holy Spirit was the presence of YHWH with Israel in the wilderness and grieved because of Israel's sins. (Eph 4:30, Isa 63:10)
The Lord is the Spirit. (2Cor 3:17)
There is a problem with the scriptures contradicting if the Father, Son and Holy Spirit aren't together, the One True God. The Father in the Son and the Son in the Father (John 14:11) and the Son and Father coming to dwell in a believer who loves them. (John 14:23)
So why is the Father called the one true God?
The Father includes the Son who is in Him and the Holy Spirit who is in Him. The Father is the source of the Spirit and of His Son.
I just looked back and found this from the beginning of this thread. Here is what is confusingly (what different to any other trinity nonsense?) said by Brian2:
  • “There is a problem with the scriptures contradicting if the Father, Son and Holy Spirit aren't together, the One True God. The Father in the Son and the Son in the Father (John 14:11) and the Son and Father coming to dwell in a believer who loves them. (John 14:23)
    So why is the Father called the one true God?
    The Father includes the Son who is in Him and the Holy Spirit who is in Him. The Father is the source of the Spirit and of His Son.“
Brian says that God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, together… The one true God!

BUT THEN he calls the Father, ALONE, the one true God?

And further declares that the Father is THE ONE TRUE GOD (remember that ‘God’, to him, is ‘FATHER, SON, AND HOLY SPIRIT TOGETHER’) is THE FATHER AND THE SON IN EACH OTHER!

Umm… I count TWO: Father and Son in each other… I thought TRINITY meant THREE?

Yes, trinity IS TRULY CONFUSING, as Brian2 declares of his Belief…!

What confuses ME, is why Brian2, and others like him, keep believing the confused ideology of trinity when they can clearly see that it is not cohesive in its formal rendering! It only works if you take separate false snippets with no regard to other false snippets!

As an anecdote: I once saw a person trying to put together a physical puzzle. Some parts appear to fit together but only if those parts were forced into place. As ‘progress’ was made (in appearance) it soon became clear that major parts would not fit. The person removed parts from other places in the puzzle and forced them into the new places… claiming that they were doing well with putting the puzzle together. Of course, they ignored the parts of the puzzle that they had forced into place and were now no longer fixed. The result being that no matter how they tried fitting the puzzle together, they deluded themselves each time they moved a piece seemingly into place but by ignoring what they had previously falsely put in place! The end being that they could never fit the puzzle together because they actually had very little idea what the end result should look like AND they actually did not have all the pieces required to fit the puzzle together fully because they had damaged many pieces and tossed them away or were so damaged they could no longer fit where they were supposed to.

What does this say about trinity… it all in the anecdote!!!
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
There are no verses that say that Jesus is Yahweh nor even any that imply such. It is pointless to argue about something that IS NOT!

But I do say, and scriptures says, that ‘YAHWEH’ is the personal, the proper name , the eternal name OF the deity whose TITLE is ‘GOD’ [of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob], as told to Moses BY the same deity entitled ‘GOD’. The MEANING of the name, ‘Yahweh’ is ‘I am’, which is short for ‘I am that I am’ (or similar wording) which describes an eternal entity that is complete in itself, that is IMMUTABLE, that is a constant… NEVER CHANGES:
  • “I, YAHWEH, do not change...“ (Malachi 3:6)
From the beginning, did YAHWEH promise to send a Saviour, a Messiah, to redeem mankind?
  • “Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will bring justice to the nations.” (Isaiah 42:1)
Did YAHWEH send a saviour, a messiah to redeem mankind?

Was the saviour YAHWEH?

‘Jesus’, is the name of the Messiah - ‘YAHWEH’ is the name of HIS GOD who anointed (consecrated … set him apart) and sent him to do his, Yahweh’s Will.

It looks like you want to continue to make grand speeches about other scriptures and ignore the scriptures I have shown you. The JWs do the same, so I'm the one who usually tries to answer everything while my answers are basically ignored.
Yes Jesus is the name of Jesus, the Messiah and Jesus is the Son of Yahweh. But when other scriptures show us that Jesus is also Yahweh we can start seeing that it is a bit more complex that the picture you paint. Your answer is to ignore the scriptures which show us that both Jesus and His Father have the name Yahweh.
Isa 43:11 I, yes I, am the LORD, and there is no Savior but Me. 12 I alone decreed and saved and proclaimed—I, and not some foreign god among you.

How many times does scripture say that Jesus CHANGED?

You destroy yourself right from the start by saying Jesus BECAME A MAN… that is a CHANGE.

But scriptures says he was GRANTED power and the Holy Spirit. That requires a CHANGE.

And he was RAISED from the dead… That is a CHANGE of mortal position.

And he was GRANTED IMMORTALITY… THAT is a change of mortality status… Which requires a CHANGE…

And he was GRANTED all power and authority IN HEAVEN as well as in addition to previously on earth! That is a CHANGE.

And Jesus becomes ‘Eternal Father’ to those he selects as HIS OWN from among the sheep of his father - which his father GRANTED TO HIM.

And he was made KING at his anointing and will be enthroned at the end of time. CHANGE!!!

… And you say that Jesus is eternal Yahweh who never changes?

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

You give a long list of things that you say are changes and ignore the scripture that says Jesus does not change.
Here is another:
Heb 1:10 And,
“You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning,
and the heavens are the work of your hands;
11 they will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment,
12 like a robe you will roll them up,
like a garment they will be changed.
But you are the same,
and your years will have no end.”

You should rethink what your idea of change is and what the scripture's idea of change is.

I have answered you on that. I did not say anything different to what you said because death of the body does not mean DESTRUCTION of the soul.

What I disagreed with is that you think the soul is a separated part of a person… No! Soul IS the person. The ‘person’ is not DESTROYED

Does the scriptures ever use the word ‘Person’?

You use the word "person" even if the scriptures do not.
The soul remains alive when the body is killed. That is what Jesus said (Matt 10:28. Do you agree with Jesus?

Being a priest is a position of Office. And a priest IS a man because that is the label attached to the entity that is appointed to priesthood.

Jesus is a man appointed to priesthood BY YAHWEH:
  • “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.” (Acts 2:6)
  • “Others became priests without any oath, but he [Jesus] became a priest with an oath when God said to him: “The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind: ‘You are a priest forever.’” (Hebrews 7:20-21)
And being appointed (being CONSECRATED / SET APART) as priest is exactly one of the things that is the purpose of an anointment.

That did not answer what I said and asked.

How strange the trinity belief is… having to distinguish one person from another… Whoever said that Jesus is the father… No one!! Trinity says so and then knocks it’s own straw man down as if it was somehow making a point:
- The son is not the father … doh!!!

It is people who deny the trinity who say that in the Trinity the Son is the Father. So you are setting up a straw man to knock down because the Trinity does not say that the Son if the Father.

Yet when I ask you to define ‘Father’ and ‘Son’, you have no idea… (shhhh…) No, it’s not that you don’t have any idea what the difference is about father and son but rather that if you define if you would destroy the whole trinity fortress… oh dear.. no wonder you don’t answer!!! Tuh!!!

I have defined Father and Son. You have not been listening.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Worshipping Jesus is worshipping a MAN, albeit a holy man empowered by God. A man, nonetheless:
  • “Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?” “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.” (Mark 14:61-62)
Here, Jesus confirms that he is the Son of God, the Messiah (The servant prophesied in Isaiah 42:1). Not only that but he says that he is ‘the Man’ who will be seated AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD.

But you say that Jesus is God sitting at the right hand of God!!!???

I say that Jesus is the Son of God who has the same nature as His Father.
But you have just dodged answering why the scriptures say that the angels should worship Jesus (Heb 1:6) and the kings of the earth should worship Jesus (Ps 2) but you say we should not be worshipping Jesus. And yes Jesus is a man,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,but also Jesus has the nature of His Father, God.

Dodge!!! Of course the truth is irrelevant to you! How can you be a believer of a lie and admit the truth when you see it!?

I said it was irrelevant but I did go on to answer it, so there was no dodge.

You don’t understand what Jesus said… You don’t understand what the Apostles said… You don’t understand what ALMIGHTY GOD said?
YOU DO understand - but trying to reconcile it with the falsehood you have been sponges with has sponges your brain and confused your mind! The result is you struggling to recognise the truth. BUT YOU SAID THAT JESUS IS GOD… 100% GOD!

But now you recognise that if Jesus IS GOD then it makes a farce of him living as an obedient servant UNTIL he was GIVEN POWER to perform miracles…, You are trying to blend the truth you have seen with the lies you have been sponges by trinity. GOD, YAHWEH, ANOINTED Jesus WITH the Holy Spirit… Therefore, the Spirit Christ Jesus HAS is the same spirit GOD GAVE HIM!

You think your backwards logic washes with reality? You just admitted that Jesus was WITHOUT the Spirit of God in your previous paragraph, only to say in your next that he has the same spirit AS GOD… ignoring the middle part wherein Jesus IS GRANTED that spirit???
Amazing ….!

You just keep making the speeches and still manage to ignore he scriptures I gave that show that the Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of God (Romans 8:9), and that there is only ONE Spirit. (Eph 4:4)
It should not be hard to understand that even if Jesus was God on earth that He was made a man so He could live as a man and not be using His Godly power until His Father anointed Him to begin His ministry at His baptism.
 
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