Try to put your self in to the thoughts of an Atheist.

From my own perspective, I would perhaps note that many don't apparently feel inclined towards religious beliefs as being a necessity, especially when they are not influenced in childhood so as to perhaps have such - my case, apart from the obvious experiences of being in churches and all such, and the religious bit during education - such that questioning seemed as being more natural, even against the colossus that often is the religion of any particular country - the history and/or the power that such wields.

I would propose that having any kind of questioning attitude is healthy, and often courageous, but I'm sure this might not be seen so. But then I can understand why so many have their religious beliefs, and I'm not against such, just as long as they don't harm others or have expectations so as to inflict them on any others, especially by force. Not a popular point of view apparently to some.

Conscious thoughts said:

To be honest, i think if i did deeply understand the feeling of being alone (without a God) it could lead to a deeper appreciation of God from within me.

I think the sufi path has lead me to realize that i have to look outside the box to understand other people. If i only keep my nose in the scripture, i will not know what physical life is. And my inner world will not fully open up to me.

Click to expand...

Its vary rare that i am alone, family and friends require most of my time, no god needed. And when i am alone, the peace us most welcome and refreshing

Conscious thoughts said:

As a believer in a God or Buddha, what can you learn about your self if you take the time to listen to an atheist speaking from their P.O.V ?

Click to expand...

That I'm usually wrong.

I really like your OP. I think why we see debates escalate to downright attacks is because people tend not to listen to each other. Rather, they talk at each other. And it goes in both directions. Neither atheists or theists are any less guilty of this than the other. They're so hungry to get their own views heard that they don't take the time to really listen to what the other person has to say.

If people really took time to listen to the other person, they would better understand another's views and the reason they have them, and debates would be less heated. It really doesn't matter whether or not they agree with them, and it's not about who's right and who's wrong. It's about respecting the other person.

Take the time to actually listen. You might actually learn something.

But then again, I'm probably wrong.

SalixIncendium said:

That I'm usually wrong.

I really like your OP. I think why we see debates escalate to downright attacks is because people tend not to listen to each other. Rather, they talk at each other. And it goes in both directions. Neither atheists or theists are any less guilty of this than the other. They're so hungry to get their own views heard that they don't take the time to really listen to what the other person has to say.

If people really took time to listen to the other person, they would better understand another's views and the reason they have them, and debates would be less heated. It really doesn't matter whether or not they agree with them, and it's not about who's right and who's wrong. It's about respecting the other person.

Take the time to actually listen. You might actually learn something.

But then again, I'm probably wrong.

Click to expand...

Thank you @SalixIncendium
Yes often listening do enlighten us more than telling others why they are wrong

I know your question is about what the theist can learn about himself from his discussions with the atheist, but I still want to tell this story:

I was raised atheist, by a physician (mother) and a mathematician (father), in a secular part of the world. We knew hardly no people of faith and I did not myself come into faith until I was in my late 20’s/early 30’s.

Many years after this, my father said to me that my faith had made him understand that atheism too is a perspective that is taught and that it is very hard to replace the spectacles you wear to see the world, with an entirely different pair.

Coming from my father, this comment was truly massive, because he had opened himself to the idea that “truth” in itself could be relative.

To me, it is an epistemological issue with emphasis, not on the fact that Man does not unite under one truth, but that he cannot even agree on the definition of the word [truth] itself and, in my experience (within a secular world), the atheist finds it harder to see that because he is seldom forced to question his own understanding of what is before him.


Humbly
Hermit

Conscious thoughts said:

I think that Atheists do not reject a theists their right to believe in a God

Click to expand...

I know some people who are atheists, but also some who are what I would call anti-theists. Direct quote from one in particular: "The only good religion is a dead religion." This particular person has expressed that he thinks those who believe in God are trapped in their childhood indoctrination, or don't think about it rationally, or are just plain stupid. Among the last of those (stupid), he would include any form of fundamentalism. It's very condescending and dismissive. Hard to have a respectful conversation in those circumstances.

ETA: For myself, I am a theist and Christian who left my original denomination (Catholicism) and am very happy as an ELCA Lutheran. I have friends of all religions and non-religions beliefs, and I'm glad to treat them with respect and kindness. Though I will admit to bristling in response to those who accuse me of being deluded for being a theist and Christian.

As to what I learned about myself in all this, it is that my faith requires me to act in love to all, which in some cases may mean letting them go, and my faith is more important to me that the opinions of atheists of my acquaintance.

GardenLady said:

I know some people who are atheists, but also some who are what I would call anti-theists. Direct quote from one in particular: "The only good religion is a dead religion." This particular person has expressed that he thinks those who believe in God are trapped in their childhood indoctrination, or don't think about it rationally, or are just plain stupid. Among the last of those (stupid), he would include any form of fundamentalism. It's very condescending and dismissive. Hard to have a respectful conversation in those circumstances.

ETA: For myself, I am a theist and Christian who left my original denomination (Catholicism) and am very happy as an ELCA Lutheran. I have friends of all religions and non-religions beliefs, and I'm glad to treat them with respect and kindness. Though I will admit to bristling in response to those who accuse me of being deluded for being a theist and Christian.

Click to expand...

If i as a theist meet an anti-theist, i believe i still have to treat him/her with respect. even we may disagree on the existance of God or not
If i can not respect and accept anti-theists, atheists or people from other religious faiths, there would be no reason for them to respect or accept me as who i am and what i believe in

I used to be an atheist so I probably have a head start here. Here are a few things that discussions with atheists on RF have reinforced for me:

1. Theism is not inherently superior to atheism, nor is atheism inherently superior to theism.
2. It's important to be able to distinguish between what you believe and what you know.
3. If you want others to believe as you do, you should understand and accept objections to your belief.*
4. What you view as a compelling argument/convincing evidence isn't going to be seen that way by everybody.


*Admittedly this one isn't all that relevant to me since I have absolutely no interest in converting anybody.

Conscious thoughts said:

If you are a theist or other form of religious/spiritual and often find your self in a discussion or debate with atheists.

Try to let your own faith and belief lay down for a moment, try to understand what non believers see when you speak about God, or about how they are wrong....are they not wrong according to you? not to them self? because you defend your own belief to avoid the same comment from an atheist, right? You do not want to be the one who are wrong? God forbidd it

As a believer in a God or Buddha, what can you learn about your self if you take the time to listen to an atheist speaking from their P.O.V ?

The discussion is not about Theist being right and Atheists wrong.
this discussion is what can a believer learn about them self by listen to how an atheist see you and your belief?

Click to expand...

It can take a while to be able to see things from someone else's pov and even then you can't really do it fully imo

Conscious thoughts said:

If you are a theist or other form of religious/spiritual and often find your self in a discussion or debate with atheists.

Try to let your own faith and belief lay down for a moment, try to understand what non believers see when you speak about God, or about how they are wrong....are they not wrong according to you? not to them self? because you defend your own belief to avoid the same comment from an atheist, right? You do not want to be the one who are wrong? God forbidd it

As a believer in a God or Buddha, what can you learn about your self if you take the time to listen to an atheist speaking from their P.O.V ?

The discussion is not about Theist being right and Atheists wrong.
this discussion is what can a believer learn about them self by listen to how an atheist see you and your belief?

Click to expand...

My juvenile beginnings with religion are mentioned >here< if they're of interest.

These days I'd say that the young me was (briefly) inside the story as a character but afterwards outside the story as a reader.

If you're inside the story, it's true and complete and has its own facts, particularly the 'reality' of the supernatural. If you're outside the story, you know magic only exists inside the story. In the reader's world, things either have objective existence, in which case you can detect them with your senses or your instruments, and establish facts about them empirically and inductively; or they exist solely as concepts or things imagined; and (for me, at least) that distinction says it all.

But I should mention that some of my believing friends are comfortable moving in and out of the story as suits them.

Erebus said:

I used to be an atheist so I probably have a head start here. Here are a few things that discussions with atheists on RF have reinforced for me:

1. Theism is not inherently superior to atheism, nor is atheism inherently superior to theism.
2. It's important to be able to distinguish between what you believe and what you know.
3. If you want others to believe as you do, you should understand and accept objections to your belief.*
4. What you view as a compelling argument/convincing evidence isn't going to be seen that way by everybody.


*Admittedly this one isn't all that relevant to me since I have absolutely no interest in converting anybody.

Click to expand...

I agree with every point you made in your reply

Erebus said:

1. Theism is not inherently superior to atheism, nor is atheism inherently superior to theism.

Click to expand...

I am uncomfortable about using the word "superior" because it carries all sorts of destructive attitudes and behaviors. If we think of religion or non-religion as a set of beliefs about ultimate reality, then one or another may be closer to the truth. But "closer to the truth" seems to me to be the goal of our religious/spiritual beliefs.

I fully accept Paul's assertion that we "see through a glass, darkly" (not a big fan of Paul's in some other areas). I'm sure I have my own "bugs in the woodwork."

Conscious thoughts said:

what can a believer learn about them self by listen to how an atheist see you and your belief?

Click to expand...

That's a tough question.

I'm still trying to figure it out.

The Atheists seek for signs, they seek for evidence. But like the Old Time stiff necked Jews, no sign will be given them. Except for the sign of Jonah, the sign of the Son of Man.

It says we have to confess with our mouth, and believe with out heart.

How can the heart believe?

Dreadful sorry Clementine.

I think I did learn something, but it's not too good of a thing.

I see it in the eyes of William Nye the science guy.

I saw it in my next door neighbor.

I encounter it in this forum.

It's the same thing every time, especially in the old and experienced Atheists.

They can all start off nice, but then their true colors show. Some of them eventually, inevitably, will shift into something different, something more than a simple disbelief, an outright attack on God.

Like: "If there is a God, why is everything so screwed up?

Or: "If there is a God, why should I have to do what He says?

And: "I don't want anything to do with a God that would let little kids get leukemia, and kill all the pregnant Antediluvian women..

Their augment shifts into a dark, sinister and Satanic phase of displaying a hatred for my God.

They know that there is a God, they just don't WANT it to be true.

My neighbor was a mean Atheist all his life. He would boast that he was an Atheist, and give warning not to bring up any of the "God" subject. Even in his last stages of emphysema, his exploits were known around town. I helped him build his garage until I couldn't take it anymore. He couldn't open his mouth without an expletive coming out.

G-D this, and J-C that, and he can go straight to hell. The simplest things like: "grab the crow bar, it's up again the G-D wall. I asked, Wayne, you're quick with taking the Lord's name in vain. Do you believe in God? He took his time to think about it and answered: "there might be a God, there might not be a God, but whether there is or there isn't, He never gave me a G-D thing. I had to work my *** off for everything I have.

I guess you had to be there. He was not a happy camper much of the time.

If there is a God, my neighbor had a problem with Him.

The Atheist, especially an old and experienced Atheist, can very quickly shift from the scientific evidentiary phase, into the anger phase of the five stages of grief.

I have not completely figured it out yet, but I notice similarities with the various stages of Atheism, and Elizabeth Kubler Ross's five stages of grief:

Five stages of grief.

• denial.
• anger.
• bargaining.
• depression.
• acceptance.

Denial. The Atheist says in their heart that there is no God.

Anger. If there is a God, I want to know why He lets little kids get leukemia.

Bargaining. Tell ya what, show us proof, and WE will be the deciders if God exists.

Depression. Quiet time, the Atheist goes on a break from posting.

Acceptance. When the Atheist reaches acceptance on a global scale, they will seek to kill God. Satan will gather them for that great battle in the valley that is symbolically called Megiddo. When the world is at war with God. Like it is right now.

This all might sound argumentative, I didn't intend it to be.

Peaceful Sabbath.

Dave Watchman said:

That's a tough question.

I'm still trying to figure it out.

The Atheists seek for signs, they seek for evidence. But like the Old Time stiff necked Jews, no sign will be given them. Except for the sign of Jonah, the sign of the Son of Man.

It says we have to confess with our mouth, and believe with out heart.

How can the heart believe?

Dreadful sorry Clementine.

I think I did learn something, but it's not too good of a thing.

I see it in the eyes of William Nye the science guy.

I saw it in my next door neighbor.

I encounter it in this forum.

It's the same thing every time, especially in the old and experienced Atheists.

They can all start off nice, but then their true colors show. Some of them eventually, inevitably, will shift into something different, something more than a simple disbelief, an outright attack on God.

Like: "If there is a God, why is everything so screwed up?

Or: "If there is a God, why should I have to do what He says?

And: "I don't want anything to do with a God that would let little kids get leukemia, and kill all the pregnant Antediluvian women..

Their augment shifts into a dark, sinister and Satanic phase of displaying a hatred for my God.

They know that there is a God, they just don't WANT it to be true.

My neighbor was a mean Atheist all his life. He would boast that he was an Atheist, and give warning not to bring up any of the "God" subject. Even in his last stages of emphysema, his exploits were known around town. I helped him build his garage until I couldn't take it anymore. He couldn't open his mouth without an expletive coming out.

G-D this, and J-C that, and he can go straight to hell. The simplest things like: "grab the crow bar, it's up again the G-D wall. I asked, Wayne, you're quick with taking the Lord's name in vain. Do you believe in God? He took his time to think about it and answered: "there might be a God, there might not be a God, but whether there is or there isn't, He never gave me a G-D thing. I had to work my *** off for everything I have.

I guess you had to be there. He was not a happy camper much of the time.

If there is a God, my neighbor had a problem with Him.

The Atheist, especially an old and experienced Atheist, can very quickly shift from the scientific evidentiary phase, into the anger phase of the five stages of grief.

I have not completely figured it out yet, but I notice similarities with the various stages of Atheism, and Elizabeth Kubler Ross's five stages of grief:

Five stages of grief.

• denial.
• anger.
• bargaining.
• depression.
• acceptance.

Denial. The Atheist says in their heart that there is no God.

Anger. If there is a God, I want to know why He lets little kids get leukemia.

Bargaining. Tell ya what, show us proof, and WE will be the deciders if God exists.

Depression. Quiet time, the Atheist goes on a break from posting.

Acceptance. When the Atheist reaches acceptance on a global scale, they will seek to kill God. Satan will gather them for that great battle in the valley that is symbolically called Megiddo. When the world is at war with God. Like it is right now.

This all might sound argumentative, I didn't intend it to be.

Peaceful Sabbath.

Click to expand...

Thank you @Dave Watchman for your reply.

After i read your reply i have to say i have one question on my mind and it is like this.
Did you try to put your own belief in God and Jesus to the side, and look at what Atheists get ticked off by by the religious people? or did you see an chance to push atheists down because your belief is "more correct than their non belief in God" ?

This is not a critique of you or your reply, it is only a question that arise in my mind when reading what you said.

Dave Watchman said:

That's a tough question.

I'm still trying to figure it out.

The Atheists seek for signs, they seek for evidence. But like the Old Time stiff necked Jews, no sign will be given them. Except for the sign of Jonah, the sign of the Son of Man.

It says we have to confess with our mouth, and believe with out heart.

How can the heart believe?

Dreadful sorry Clementine.

I think I did learn something, but it's not too good of a thing.

I see it in the eyes of William Nye the science guy.

I saw it in my next door neighbor.

I encounter it in this forum.

It's the same thing every time, especially in the old and experienced Atheists.

They can all start off nice, but then their true colors show. Some of them eventually, inevitably, will shift into something different, something more than a simple disbelief, an outright attack on God.

Like: "If there is a God, why is everything so screwed up?

Or: "If there is a God, why should I have to do what He says?

And: "I don't want anything to do with a God that would let little kids get leukemia, and kill all the pregnant Antediluvian women..

Their augment shifts into a dark, sinister and Satanic phase of displaying a hatred for my God.

They know that there is a God, they just don't WANT it to be true.

My neighbor was a mean Atheist all his life. He would boast that he was an Atheist, and give warning not to bring up any of the "God" subject. Even in his last stages of emphysema, his exploits were known around town. I helped him build his garage until I couldn't take it anymore. He couldn't open his mouth without an expletive coming out.

G-D this, and J-C that, and he can go straight to hell. The simplest things like: "grab the crow bar, it's up again the G-D wall. I asked, Wayne, you're quick with taking the Lord's name in vain. Do you believe in God? He took his time to think about it and answered: "there might be a God, there might not be a God, but whether there is or there isn't, He never gave me a G-D thing. I had to work my *** off for everything I have.

I guess you had to be there. He was not a happy camper much of the time.

If there is a God, my neighbor had a problem with Him.

The Atheist, especially an old and experienced Atheist, can very quickly shift from the scientific evidentiary phase, into the anger phase of the five stages of grief.

I have not completely figured it out yet, but I notice similarities with the various stages of Atheism, and Elizabeth Kubler Ross's five stages of grief:

Five stages of grief.

• denial.
• anger.
• bargaining.
• depression.
• acceptance.

Denial. The Atheist says in their heart that there is no God.

Anger. If there is a God, I want to know why He lets little kids get leukemia.

Bargaining. Tell ya what, show us proof, and WE will be the deciders if God exists.

Depression. Quiet time, the Atheist goes on a break from posting.

Acceptance. When the Atheist reaches acceptance on a global scale, they will seek to kill God. Satan will gather them for that great battle in the valley that is symbolically called Megiddo. When the world is at war with God. Like it is right now.

This all might sound argumentative, I didn't intend it to be.

Peaceful Sabbath.

Click to expand...

Seems to me you are doing the exact opposite of what the OP suggests.
You are trying to understand atheism from a theist PoV.

Conscious thoughts said:

Try to let your own faith and belief lay down for a moment, try to understand what non believers see when you speak about God, or about how they are wrong....are they not wrong according to you? not to them self? because you defend your own belief to avoid the same comment from an atheist, right? You do not want to be the one who are wrong? God forbid it

As a believer in a God or Buddha, what can you learn about your self if you take the time to listen to an atheist speaking from their P.O.V ?

The discussion is not about Theist being right and Atheists wrong.
this discussion is what can a believer learn about themself by listen to how an atheist sees you and your beliefs?

Click to expand...

BUDDHA:

Buddha

Buddha was a man (named Siddhartha Gautama), not a God. It's natural for many to follow a wise and pleasingly plump person (modesty prohibits my autographs).

Archaeologists' discovery puts Buddha's birth 300 years earlier

Archaeology professor, Gus Coningham, dates the very old (though, so far, hasn't asked me to dinner or a movie), and believes he found the age of Buddha after finding a tree temple in Maya Devi, Nepal (please see the link above).

THEIST VS. ATHEIST:

There are an infinite number of things that we could believe. If we believe them all, we would have conflicts. There is hardly any difference between believing in God or believing in Fred Flintstone.

It was common, before TV, for story tellers to travel from town to town and accept fees for stories. Thus, tales of leprechauns and dragons were common.

Common sense prevented many from believing weird stories. They said "what nonsense about some giant dragon with a mouth big enough to swallow a car that roamed the earth millions of years ago." But....what about dinosaur bones that prove that such a creature (sans fiery breath) existed? Even known fairy tales seem to have a basis in fact.

The bible talks about apostles who all heard Jesus. The problem is that there is hardly any evidence that any apostle ever existed. Nor does it make sense that over a hundred years after all of the apostles were dead that the dead apostles got together to write the bible. Could the bible have been transcribed by God psychically? If so, wouldn't it be perfect instead of chocked full of errors? Could the many bible errors be a result of many popes and kings rewriting the bible to suit their purposes? Can we trust a heavily redacted bible, that was redacted by humans (not God)?

All are awed by the complexity of life and science. Should we let such awesome science make us believe in some supernatural being (the Creator)?

Should we be amazed that an eye can see, and be connected so intricately to a brain, nerves, and blood vessels, that God must exist? Or, should we say, instead, that it is proof that leprechauns exist?

Should we assign God-like status to some unseen creature whom we assume created the universe? (Please make my checks payable in cash--in case you mistake me for the creator).

Should we follow preachers because they have years of education in theology? Reverend Hagee said that we should pray to Jesus to make us win the war in Iraq. Really? Pray to kill? What about "thou shalt not kill." After all that schooling, the teacher fails to understand even the most basic and simple instructions of God, and passes that ignorance onto us. This is why I believe we need to study the bible on our own, without some idiot misinterpreting it.

Should we follow those who don't follow God? Should we have followed Reverend Robert Schuller (Crystal Cathedral) when he took donations for the church then personally owned the Crystal Cathedral (which he sold to the Catholic church for $50 million of his own profit)? Should we follow Schuller's son, who was photographed with a scantily clad blonde in one arm, bottle of booze in the other, and his pants down in public with his penis sticking out? Is that the way church funds should be spent? Is that the morality that the church teaches?

We hope that some lascivious pervert will teach us some of his vast knowledge of religion, but there is neither a guarantee that they believe what they had learned, nor that they will follow what they believe.

If we follow a leader who leads us to hell, we will end up in hell.

Conscious thoughts said:

After i read your reply i have to say i have one question on my mind and it is like this.
Did you try to put your own belief in God and Jesus to the side, and look at what Atheists get ticked off by by the religious people? or did you see an chance to push atheists down because your belief is "more correct than their non belief in God" ?

This is not a critique of you or your reply, it is only a question that arise in my mind when reading what you said.

Click to expand...

Nope, I'm not an evangelist.

Especially when I was helping my neighbor with his garage.

It's just work.

Hammer and 2X4.

His daughter brought drinks wearing a blue bikini.

Religion never enter my mind.

Wrong time and place.

It's just all the live long day, "G-D, G-D and G-D everything.

It was like Tourette syndrome.

After hearing JESUS CHRIST! all day from the lost, it begs the question,: "do you even believe in God?

One of the last times I saw him alive, in a wheelchair with oxygen tubes into his nose, barely able to take a breath, looking at a tree on our lot line with the arborist: "Just cut the (inhale), G-D thing down (inhale), and get it the F out of here.

What do I learn about myself from contact with Atheists?

How fortunate I am to be with God.

How sorry I am for them that they are not.


Peaceful Sabbath.

Mestemia said:

Seems to me you are doing the exact opposite of what the OP suggests.
You are trying to understand atheism from a theist PoV.

Click to expand...

I honestly don't think so.

A theist is a person who believes in the existence of a God or gods, specifically of a Creator who intervenes in the universe.

Satan is not a supreme being, not the Creator, he's just a part of the creation like we are.

It would be easier for me to pretend being a Satanist, than to pretend being an Atheist.

If I was a Satanist, I could still write the same note to the Atheists.

I wonder why I don't see any debates between the Atheists and the Satanists?

Peaceful Sabbath.

SalixIncendium said:

That I'm usually wrong.

I really like your OP. I think why we see debates escalate to downright attacks is because people tend not to listen to each other. Rather, they talk at each other. And it goes in both directions. Neither atheists or theists are any less guilty of this than the other. They're so hungry to get their own views heard that they don't take the time to really listen to what the other person has to say.

If people really took time to listen to the other person, they would better understand another's views and the reason they have them, and debates would be less heated. It really doesn't matter whether or not they agree with them, and it's not about who's right and who's wrong. It's about respecting the other person.

Take the time to actually listen. You might actually learn something.

But then again, I'm probably wrong.

Click to expand...

I respect wrong people.

Dave Watchman said:

I honestly don't think so.

Click to expand...

Yes, and that is a big part of the problem.

Dave Watchman said:

A theist is a person who believes in the existence of a God or gods, specifically of a Creator who intervenes in the universe.

Click to expand...

With you so far...

Dave Watchman said:

Satan is not a supreme being, not the Creator, he's just a part of the creation like we are.

Click to expand...

You see The Satan as a specific entity?
Not Biblical, but I understand it.

Dave Watchman said:

It would be easier for me to pretend being a Satanist, than to pretend being an Atheist.

Click to expand...

Here is where things get cloudy.
What, exactly, do you mean by "Satanism"?

There are two basic groups here.
The "Satanists" Christians claim worship some entity the Christians call "Satan", and the Group of Atheists who go by the name Satanists....

Dave Watchman said:

If I was a Satanist, I could still write the same note to the Atheists.

Click to expand...

This comment strongly indicates you mean the former group of Satanists, who are not atheists....

Dave Watchman said:

I wonder why I don't see any debates between the Atheists and the Satanists?

Click to expand...

My first guess is because the group of Satanists you appear to be referring to is an extremely small portion of population?

Dave Watchman said:

I honestly don't think so.

A theist is a person who believes in the existence of a God or gods, specifically of a Creator who intervenes in the universe.

Satan is not a supreme being, not the Creator, he's just a part of the creation like we are.

It would be easier for me to pretend being a Satanist, than to pretend being an Atheist.

If I was a Satanist, I could still write the same note to the Atheists.

I wonder why I don't see any debates between the Atheists and the Satanists?

Peaceful Sabbath.

Click to expand...

Archangels are more powerful than humans. Satan is also a snappy dresser (assuming no Gays in heaven, as Christian's assert). One can't be prideful without being neat. Satan is surrounded by beautiful women (since anyone beautiful is not allowed in heaven). Satan loves music and dance (which is sinful in heaven, according to Puritans).

In heaven, everything is glum, frowsy, depressing, and nasty. Heavy is filled with judgemental people who hate Gays, hate other Christians who don't believe exactly as they do, hate Jews, and hate Muslims. Heaven is a place of hatred and sharp tongued war mongers.