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Who is "James?"

Soul

Member
Who is "James" in Mt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3?
Some teach he, Simon, Joseph, and Jude (Thaddeus) were either
Jesus's stepbrothers or half-brothers based on the following:

"Is not this
the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called Mary,
and
his brethren James, and Joseph, and Simon, and Jude"
(Mt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3)

Is there evidence these four brothers were Jesus's stepbrothers/half-brothers?

The answer lies in comparing this James with the identity of the
only other "James," an apostle, called Jesus's brother
:

"...other of the apostles I saw none,
saving James the brother of the Lord"
(Ga. 1:19)

Two of the twelve apostles were named "James:"

James, son of Zebedee
James, son of Alphaeus

James of Zebedee's sibling was Apostle John. Their mother is only known
to be "the mother of the sons of Zebedee." Thus it is indisputable this
apostle-James is not the "James" in Mt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 and Ga. 1:19.
(Mt. 4:21;20:20;27:56, Mk. 1:19;3:17;10:35, Lk. 5:10, Ac. 12:1-2)


James, son of Zebedee
James, son of Alphaeus

James of Alphaeus's
siblings were Apostle Jude (Thaddeus) and Joseph,
which corresponds with Mt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3. Thus it is indisputable this
apostle-James is the "James" in Mt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 and Ga. 1:19.
(Mt. 10:3, Mk. 3:18, Lk. 6:15-16, Ac. 1:13)

The mother of James, Simon, Joseph, and Jude (Thaddeus) of
Alphaeus
was also named "Mary" based on the following:

"Mary, mother of James"
(Mk. 16:1)

"Mary of James"
(Lk. 24:10)

"Mary, mother of James and Joseph"
(Mt. 27:56)

"Mary, mother of James the Less and Joseph"
(Mk. 15:40)


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Soul

Member
Early Church Father Testimonials

I. "...Papias the hearer of John...".

(Adversus Haereses, Bk. V, ch. 33, Irenaeus of Lyon [c. 120-203 AD])

"...Papias of Hierapolis, the illustrious, a disciple of the apostle who leaned on the bosom of Christ..."

(Λογίων Κυριακῶν Ἐξήγησις, Frag. 9, Anastasius Sinaita [c. ?-701 AD], cf. Jn. 13:23)

"Mary the wife of Cleophas or Alphaeus, who was the mother of James the bishop and apostle,

and of Simon and Thaddeus, and of one Joseph."
(Λογίων Κυριακῶν Ἐξήγησις, Frag. 10, Papias of Hierapolis [c. 60–130 AD])

II. "...James, who is called the brother of the Lord ... as appears to me, the son of Mary sister of the mother

of our Lord ... after ordained by the apostles bishop of Jerusalem, wrote a single epistle, which is reckoned
among the seven Catholic epistles" and "...Mary who is described as the mother of James the Less was the wife
of Alphaeus and sister of Mary the Lord's mother..." (Jn. 19:25)
(De Viris Illustribus, De Perpetua Uirginitate Beatae Mariae, Jerome of Stridon [c. 347–420 CE])

III. Eusebius of Caesarea [c. 260–340 AD] relates the following in his Historia Ecclesiastica:


James, the brother of the Lord, was the "...author of the first of the so-called catholic epistles..."
and that while it is disputed, "as is the case likewise with the epistle that bears the name of Jude,
which is also one of the seven so-called catholic epistles," it is known they have been
"...read publicly in very many churches
."
(Bk. I, ch. 23)

"James, whom the ancients surnamed the Just ... bishop of the church of Jerusalem. This James
was called the brother of the Lord..." and
"Paul also makes mention of the same James the Just,
where he writes, 'Other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.'"

(Bk. II, ch. 1)

"...those of the apostles and disciples of the Lord that were still living ... with those that were related to
the Lord
according to the flesh ... pronounced Symeon (Simon), the
son of Clopas ... to
be worthy of the episcopal throne of that parish.
He was a cousin, as they say, of the Saviour.
For Hegesippus records that
Clopas was a sibling of Joseph."
(Bk. III, ch. 11)

"Peter and James and John ... chose James the Just bishop of Jerusalem" and "...but there were two Jameses:

one called the Just... thrown from the pinnacle of the temple ... and beaten to death with a club by a fuller,
and another who was beheaded." (Bk. II, ch. 1)
(Hypotyposes, Bk. VII, Clement of Alexandria [c. 150–215 AD], cf. Ac. 12:1-2)

"...James the brother of the Lord, succeeded to the government of the Church ... called the Just ..." (Bk. II, ch. 23)
and "after James the Just had suffered martyrdom ... Symeon (Simon), the son of the Lord's uncle, Clopas, was
appointed the next bishop ... because he was a cousin of the Lord." (Bk. III, ch. 22)
(Hypomnemata, Hegesippus [c. 110-180 AD])


Summary


The scriptural verses in the OP and testimonies of Early Church Fathers illustrate "James" in Mt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3, "James the brother of the Lord," "Apostle James of Alphaeus," "James the Bishop of Jerusalem," "James the Less," "James the Just," and the author of the Epistle of James were the same, and that he, Simon, Joseph, and Jude (Thaddeus) were sons of Joseph's sibling, Alphaeus (Cleophas/Clopas), and Mary of Joseph's sister-in-law, Mary of Cleophas/Clopas, and thus Jesus's brothers, as in "kinsman," specifically cousins. This disproves the teaching that states Simon, Joseph, James, and Jude (Thaddeus) were Jesus's stepbrothers and undermines the teaching that states they were His half-brothers.


[Note: There was no word for "cousin" in Hebrew and Aramaic. The word "brother" (ἀδελφός [adelphos]) can mean "fellow believer," fellow countryman," "kinsman," e.g., "sibling," "uncle," "aunt," "niece," "nephew," "cousin," etc.]

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Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Who is "James" in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3? According to some, he, Simon, Joseph, and Jude (Thaddeus) were either Jesus's stepbrothers through Joseph
or half-brothers through Mary of Joseph based on the following:

"Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called Mary,
and
his brethren James, and Joseph, and Simon, and Jude"
(Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3)

Is there evidence these four brothers were Jesus's step-/half-brothers?
The answer lies in comparing, James, above, with the identity of

the only other "James," an apostle, called Jesus's brother, below:

"...I went to Jerusalem, to see Peter,... But other of the apostles I saw none,
saving
James the brother of the Lord"
(Gal. 1:18-19)

Of the twelve apostles, two shared the name "James:"


Apostle James, son of Zebedee

(Matt. 4:21, Mk. 1:19;3:17;10:35, Lk. 5:10)
Apostle James, son of Alphaeus

(Matt. 10:3, Mk. 3:18, Lk. 6:15-16, Ac. 1:13)

Apostle James of Zebedee's brother [sibling] was Apostle John and their mother

was only known to be "the mother of the sons of Zebedee." Thus it is unobjectionable this apostle-James and the Jameses in Gal. 1:19 and Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 were not the same.
(Matt. 4:21;20:20;27:56, Mk. 1:19;3:17;10:35, Lk. 5:10, Ac. 12:1-2)

Apostle James, son of Zebedee

Apostle James, son of Alphaeus

Apostle James of Alphaeus's brothers [siblings] were Apostle Jude (Thaddeus) and Joseph,

which corresponds with Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3. Thus it is unobjectionable this apostle-James and the Jameses in Gal. 1:19 and Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 were the same.
(Matt. 10:3, Mk. 3:18, Lk. 6:15-16, Ac. 1:13)

Furthermore, there is evidence the mother of this James, Simon, Joseph,

and Jude (Thaddeus) of Alphaeus was named "Mary:"

"Mary, mother of James"
(Mk. 16:1)

"Mary of James"
(Lk. 24:10)

"Mary, mother of James and Joseph"
(Matt. 27:56)

"Mary, mother of James the Less and Joseph"
(Mk. 15:40)

Extra-Biblical Testimonials

Irenaeus of Lyon (c. 120/140-200/203 AD) relates in his Against Heresies (Bk. V, ch. 33) the following: "And these things are borne witness to in writing by Papias, the hearer of John, and a companion of Polycarp...". As preserved by Anastasius Sinaita (c. ?-701 AD), another source tells us, "Taking occasion from Papias of Hierapolis, the illustrious, a disciple of the apostle who leaned on the bosom of Christ (Jn. 13:23)..." Exposition of the Sayings of the Lord, Frag. 9)


Papias of Hierapolis (c. 60–130 AD), who was the disciple of Apostle John, relates in his Λογίων Κυριακῶν Ἐξήγησις (Exposition of the Sayings of the Lord) the following: "Mary the wife of Cleophas or Alphaeus, who was the mother of James the bishop and apostle, and of Simon and Thaddeus, and of one Joseph."

(Frag. 10)

Jerome of Stridon (c. 347–420 CE) relates in his De Viris Illustribus (Concerning Illustrious Men) and De perpetua uirginitate beatae Mariae adversus Heluidium (Against Helvidius, on the Perpetual Virginity of the Virgin Mary) "Mary the mother of James the Less" (Mk. 15:40) and "Mary the wife of Cleophas/Clopas" (Jn. 19:25) were the same.

Eusebius of Caesarea (c. 260–340 AD) relates the following in his Church History:


• "James, whom the ancients surnamed the Just on account of the excellence of his virtue is recorded to have been the first to be made bishop of the church of Jerusalem. This James was called the brother of the Lord..." and "Paul also makes mention of the same James the Just, where he writes, 'Other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother."

(Bk. II, ch. 1)

Additionally, regarding this James, Eusebius adds he was the "...author of the first of the so-called catholic epistles" and that while it is disputed, "as is the case likewise with the epistle that bears the name of Jude, which is also one of the seven so-called catholic epistles," it is known they have been "...read publicly in very many churches."

(Bk. I, ch. 23)

• Clement of Alexandria (c. 150–215 AD) relates in his Hypotyposes (Book VII) James the Just was chosen to be Bishop of Jerusalem and there were only two apostle-Jameses: "...one called "the Just," who was thrown from the pinnacle of the temple and was beaten to death with a club by a fuller, and another who was beheaded." James the Just, aka "James the brother of the Lord," the first Bishop of Jerusalem, could have only been Apostle James of Alphaeus, because Apostle James of Zebedee, brother [sibling] to Apostle John of Zebedee, was the one beheaded.

(Bk. II, ch. 1, Ac. 12:1-2)

• "After the martyrdom of James ... those of the apostles and disciples of the Lord that were still living ... with those that were related to the Lord according to the flesh ... pronounced Symeon, the son of Clopas, of whom the Gospel also makes mention; to be worthy of the episcopal throne of that parish. He was a cousin, as they say, of the Saviour. For Hegesippus records that Clopas was a brother [sibling] of Joseph."

(Bk. III, ch. 11)

• Hegesippus (c. 110-180 AD) relates in his Hypomnemata (Memoirs), "James the brother of the Lord, succeeded to the government of the Church in conjunction with the apostles. He has been called 'the Just' by all from the time of our Savior to the present day; for there were many that bore the name of "James" and "And after James the Just had suffered martyrdom, as the Lord had also on the same account, Symeon (Simon), the son of the Lord's uncle, Clopas, was appointed the next bishop. All proposed him as second bishop because he was a cousin of the Lord."

(Bk. II, ch. 23; III, ch. 22)

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Ouch. The red.

What's your question(s) or debate-point(s)?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Who is "James" in Mt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3? According to some, he, Simon, Joseph, and Jude (Thaddeus) were either
Jesus's stepbrothers through Joseph or half-brothers through Mary of Joseph based on the following:

"Is not this
the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called Mary,
and
his brethren James, and Joseph, and Simon, and Jude"
(Mt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3)

Is there evidence these four brothers were Jesus's step-/half-brothers?
The answer lies in comparing, James, above, with the identity of

the only other "James," an apostle, called Jesus's brother, below:

"...I went to Jerusalem, to see Peter,... But other of the apostles I saw none,
saving
James the brother of the Lord"
(Ga. 1:18-19)

Of the twelve apostles, two shared the name "James:"


Apostle James, son of Zebedee

(Mt. 4:21, Mk. 1:19;3:17;10:35, Lk. 5:10)
Apostle James, son of Alphaeus

(Mt. 10:3, Mk. 3:18, Lk. 6:15-16, Ac. 1:13)

Apostle James of Zebedee's brother [sibling] was Apostle John and their
mother
was only known to be "the mother of the sons of Zebedee."
Thus it is unobjectionable this
apostle-James
and the Jameses in Gal. 1:19 and Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 were not the same.
(Mt. 4:21;20:20;27:56, Mk. 1:19;3:17;10:35, Lk. 5:10, Ac. 12:1-2)

Apostle James, son of Zebedee

Apostle James, son of Alphaeus

Apostle James of Alphaeus's brothers [siblings] were Apostle Jude (Thaddeus) and Joseph,

which corresponds with Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3. Thus it is unobjectionable this
apostle-James and the Jameses in Gal. 1:19 and Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 were the same.
(Mt. 10:3, Mk. 3:18, Lk. 6:15-16, Ac. 1:13)

Furthermore, there is evidence the mother of this James, Simon, Joseph,

and Jude (Thaddeus) of Alphaeus was named "Mary:"

"Mary, mother of James"
(Mk. 16:1)

"Mary of James"
(Lk. 24:10)

"Mary, mother of James and Joseph"
(Mt. 27:56)

"Mary, mother of James the Less and Joseph"
(Mk. 15:40)
Out of all that, as you identify as "Catholic", I assume that the point of it all was to demonstrate that Jesus did not have a sibling named James.....?

The Bible clearly shows that Jesus was the firstborn in a large Jewish family and that Joseph and Mary did not consummate their marriage until after the birth of Jesus.
Matthew 1:25...
"25 but had no marital relations with her until she had borne a son; and he named him Jesus." (NRSVCE)

Time to put Mary's perpetual virginity to bed (pardon the pun) She was a normal Jewish wife and mother. Nothing in scripture says any different. She was not immaculately conceived and did not go bodily to heaven. The church made that up.

Catholic theologians admit that the Bible does not speak of Mary as 'immaculately conceived' or as making such an 'ascension' to heaven. Indeed, few Catholics realize that these beloved doctrines have been a centuries-old subject of controversy and bitter debate, like a lot of their other unscriptural doctrines.

You should have put this in the Catholic DIR and the Catholics among us would agree with everything you said.....forgive us non-Catholics for using scripture to beg to differ on many things.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Time to put Mary's perpetual virginity to bed

An explanation I've heard which I quite like is that Mary was an utterly pure and innocent woman not that she never had relations. This is, of course, not Christian doctrine.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Who is "James" in Mt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3? According to some, he, Simon, Joseph, and Jude (Thaddeus) were either
Jesus's stepbrothers through Joseph or half-brothers through Mary of Joseph based on the following:

"Is not this
the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called Mary,
and
his brethren James, and Joseph, and Simon, and Jude"
(Mt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3)

Is there evidence these four brothers were Jesus's step-/half-brothers?
The answer lies in comparing, James, above, with the identity of

the only other "James," an apostle, called Jesus's brother, below:

"...I went to Jerusalem, to see Peter,... But other of the apostles I saw none,
saving
James the brother of the Lord"
(Ga. 1:18-19)

Of the twelve apostles, two shared the name "James:"


Apostle James, son of Zebedee

(Mt. 4:21, Mk. 1:19;3:17;10:35, Lk. 5:10)
Apostle James, son of Alphaeus

(Mt. 10:3, Mk. 3:18, Lk. 6:15-16, Ac. 1:13)

Apostle James of Zebedee's brother [sibling] was Apostle John and their
mother
was only known to be "the mother of the sons of Zebedee."
Thus it is unobjectionable this
apostle-James
and the Jameses in Gal. 1:19 and Mt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 were not the same.
(Mt. 4:21;20:20;27:56, Mk. 1:19;3:17;10:35, Lk. 5:10, Ac. 12:1-2)

Apostle James, son of Zebedee

Apostle James, son of Alphaeus

Apostle James of Alphaeus's brothers [siblings] were Apostle Jude (Thaddeus) and Joseph,

which corresponds with Mt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3. Thus it is unobjectionable this
apostle-James and the Jameses in Gal. 1:19 and Mt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 were the same.
(Mt. 10:3, Mk. 3:18, Lk. 6:15-16, Ac. 1:13)

Furthermore, there is evidence the mother of this James, Simon, Joseph,

and Jude (Thaddeus) of Alphaeus was named "Mary:"

"Mary, mother of James"
(Mk. 16:1)

"Mary of James"
(Lk. 24:10)

"Mary, mother of James and Joseph"
(Mt. 27:56)

"Mary, mother of James the Less and Joseph"
(Mk. 15:40)

Extra-Biblical Testimonials

  • Irenaeus of Lyon (c. 120/140-200/203 AD) relates in his Against Heresies (Bk. V, ch. 33) the following: "And these things are borne witness to in writing by Papias, the hearer of John, and a companion of Polycarp...".

As preserved by Anastasius Sinaita (c. ?-701 AD), another source tells us, "Taking occasion from Papias of Hierapolis, the illustrious, a disciple of the apostle who leaned on the bosom of Christ (Jn. 13:23)..."

(Exposition of the Sayings of the Lord, Frag. 9)


Papias of Hierapolis (c. 60–130 AD), the disciple of Apostle John, relates in his Λογίων Κυριακῶν Ἐξήγησις (Exposition of the Sayings of the Lord) the following: "Mary the wife of Cleophas or Alphaeus, who was the mother of James the bishop and apostle, and of Simon and Thaddeus, and of one Joseph."
(Frag. 10)



  • Eusebius of Caesarea (c. 260–340 AD) relates the following in his Church History:

"
James, whom the ancients surnamed the Just on account of the excellence of his virtue is recorded to have been the first to be made bishop of the church of Jerusalem. This James was called the brother of the Lord..." and "Paul also makes mention of the same James the Just, where he writes, 'Other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother."
(Bk. II, ch. 1)

Additionally, regarding this James, Eusebius adds he was the "...author of the first of the so-called catholic epistles" and that while it is disputed, "as is the case likewise with the epistle that bears the name of Jude, which is also one of the seven so-called catholic epistles," it is known they have been "...read publicly in very many churches."
(Bk. I, ch. 23)

Clement of Alexandria (c. 150–215 AD) relates in his Hypotyposes (Book VII) James the Just was chosen to be Bishop of Jerusalem and there were only two apostle-Jameses: "...one called "the Just," who was thrown from the pinnacle of the temple and was beaten to death with a club by a fuller, and another who was beheaded." James the Just, aka "James the brother of the Lord," the first Bishop of Jerusalem, could have only been Apostle James of Alphaeus, because Apostle James of Zebedee, brother [sibling] to Apostle John of Zebedee, was the one beheaded.
(Bk. II, ch. 1, Ac. 12:1-2)

"After the martyrdom of James ... those of the apostles and disciples of the Lord that were still living ... with those that were related to the Lord according to the flesh ... pronounced Symeon, the son of Clopas, of whom the Gospel also makes mention; to be worthy of the episcopal throne of that parish. He was a cousin, as they say, of the Saviour. For Hegesippus records that Clopas was a brother [sibling] of Joseph."
(Bk. III, ch. 11)

Hegesippus (c. 110-180 AD) relates in his Hypomnemata (Memoirs), "James the brother of the Lord, succeeded to the government of the Church in conjunction with the apostles. He has been called 'the Just' by all from the time of our Savior to the present day; for there were many that bore the name of "James" and "And after James the Just had suffered martyrdom, as the Lord had also on the same account, Symeon (Simon), the son of the Lord's uncle, Clopas, was appointed the next bishop. All proposed him as second bishop because he was a cousin of the Lord."
(Bk. II, ch. 23; III, ch. 22)......

Son of Joseph and Mary, and half brother of Jesus - Mark 6:3; Galatians 1:19
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Dosent even sound middle eastern. More like old French names.
Good one ^ above ^ definitely Not Hebrew or Greek because we are reading in an English translation.
The original names would Not have been in English but the English-worded Bible has English names.
I would think a French Bible translation would have French equivalent names.
Just think how different Twilight Hue would sound or be pronounced in Hebrew, Greek or Aramaic.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
Out of all that, as you identify as "Catholic", I assume that the point of it all was to demonstrate that Jesus did not have a sibling named James.....?

The Bible clearly shows that Jesus was the firstborn in a large Jewish family and that Joseph and Mary did not consummate their marriage until after the birth of Jesus.
Matthew 1:25...
"25 but had no marital relations with her until she had borne a son; and he named him Jesus." (NRSVCE)

Time to put Mary's perpetual virginity to bed (pardon the pun) She was a normal Jewish wife and mother. Nothing in scripture says any different. She was not immaculately conceived and did not go bodily to heaven. The church made that up.

Catholic theologians admit that the Bible does not speak of Mary as 'immaculately conceived' or as making such an 'ascension' to heaven. Indeed, few Catholics realize that these beloved doctrines have been a centuries-old subject of controversy and bitter debate, like a lot of their other unscriptural doctrines.

You should have put this in the Catholic DIR and the Catholics among us would agree with everything you said.....forgive us non-Catholics for using scripture to beg to differ on many things.
My wife who is a former Catholic say that in a way that Catholic is not Christian. I think the reason she says that is that Catholics usually don't read the bible except those parts which support their beliefs, if they read it at all, according to her. However, I do believe myself that they are Christian because they recognize Christ as a Divine being. My wife was baptized when a baby, and the church refused to remove her from the rolls when she became a Baha'i. Those who are baptized are considered Catholic for life. I think that's why the words "lapsed Catholic" are used sometimes by people. They no longer believe, but are considered Catholics by the Church. How many Catholica are there really?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
My wife who is a former Catholic say that in a way that Catholic is not Christian. I think the reason she says that is that Catholics usually don't read the bible except those parts which support their beliefs, if they read it at all, according to her. However, I do believe myself that they are Christian because they recognize Christ as a Divine being. My wife was baptized when a baby, and the church refused to remove her from the rolls when she became a Baha'i. Those who are baptized are considered Catholic for life. I think that's why the words "lapsed Catholic" are used sometimes by people. They no longer believe, but are considered Catholics by the Church. How many Catholica are there really?
It seems such a shame to me that the Catholic Church trains it’s people from infancy not to think, or study, but to perform. Performance is mindless and ritual supplants any meaningful connection with God or his Christ.

I have taught the Bible to many Catholic people over the years, and the one thing they all had in common was complete ignorance of the Bible and it’s message, relying on the church instead of God for their salvation, convinced that their performance would somehow be enough.
When the Bible was opened up to them, they could not believe how much they had been missing. And they were appalled at how many things they did were actually offensive to God. (Like their use of images, the crucifix, rosary beads and the mindless repetition of prayers)

Since I believe that all of Christendom was spawned by the Catholic Church, (having the same core of erroneous beliefs) their claims to be Christian fall way short in so many areas IMO. As one who came out of Christendom, I saw very clearly that most of what they taught was not from the teachings of Jesus and the apostles. These I believe, are the “weeds” of Jesus’ parable.

Whenever their beliefs conflict with scripture, they will side with the church every time and make excuses about how the scriptures should be read. This one on Mary is a classic example. The Bible clearly says that Joseph had relations with his wife after the birth of Jesus, and that he had at least six siblings. But since their ‘mother goddess’ had to remain ‘ever virgin’ the scriptures must mean something else. Oh well....:shrug:
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Refer back to the summary in post #2.
This is how I see the situation after decades of deep Bible study.....
Because Jesus and his apostles warned about an apostasy that was to overtake the church, I believe that the early church "fathers" were the first ones to deviate from his teachings. Since they departed from the true teachings of Jesus and the apostles, I do not consider them a reliable source from which to draw my conclusions.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3...
"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling to meet him, we beg you, brethren, 2 not to be quickly shaken in mind. . . . Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition."

The rebellion (apostasy) had to come first. There is no doubt that it did and not recently because the apostles said that it was snapping at their heel whilst they were still alive. When the last apostle John passed away there was no longer a restraint and the "weeds" spread all over the world.

1 Timothy 4:1-3...
"Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 through the pretensions of liars whose consciences are seared, 3 who forbid marriage and enjoin abstinence from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth"

Those later times were the following centuries. The institution of Roman Catholicism was a fusion of pagan Roman sun worship and a apostate Christianity, promoted by a pagan Emperor to consolidate his divided empire. He saw it as politically expedient.
Priests are still forbidden to marry, and I wonder how many Catholics went to hell for eating meat on Fridays?

2 Peter 2:1-3...
"But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their licentiousness, and because of them the way of truth will be reviled. 3 And in their greed they will exploit you with false words; from of old their condemnation has not been idle".

Any wonder that the church did not accept "sola scriptura" because the Bible identifies those who corrupted the church. Their appalling history confirms that corruption.

The "lawless" ones proved to be those in authority in the church when an angry and disillusioned priest named Martin Luther took them to task over their abuses.

The church fathers and their appointees in those early centuries brought reproach on the name of Jesus Christ by the atrocities they committed in his name. It was a disgusting abuse of power, that was carried on for 1500 years until Martin Luther, nailed his thesis to the door of the church demanding that they stop the abuses.

As a priest, Luther had access to the word of God, but the common people did not. That meant that those flocks never got an opportunity to check out God's word for themselves, having to put their trust in a corrupt church to tell them how to be "Christians". The "Christianity" they taught was not even close to the original. It still isn't.

I will take scripture over the words and empty traditions of men any day.....there can be no arguing about the scriptures apart from disputing the truth that they are promoting. You can't change God's word...you can only corrupt its meaning.

Jesus' earthly parents had a normal married life and produced at least six more children. No other church adopted the virtual worship (call it veneration if you like) of Jesus' mother apart from Catholicism. Mary hardly rates a mention in scripture actually. She was chosen by God for her devotion and good character, but she was never to be placed on equal footing with her divine son, such as your church has done.
Mary is not the "mother of God" because Jesus is not God and never once said that he was.

Sorry, but the Catholic church does not have a leg to stand on and never has IMO.
 

Soul

Member
Because Jesus and his apostles warned about an apostasy that was to overtake the church, I believe that the early church "fathers" were the first ones to deviate from his teachings. Since they departed from the true teachings of Jesus and the apostles, I do not consider them a reliable source from which to draw my conclusions.

Elaborate on why you consider Papias of Hierapolis, Hegesippus, Clement of Alexandria, Eusebius of Caesarea, and Jerome of Stridon unreliable sources for this thread topic.

I will take scripture over the words and empty traditions of men any day.....

Refer to the scriptural verses in the OP that illustrate Simon, Joseph, James, and Jude (Thaddeus) in Mt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 were not Jesus's step-brothers, nor His half-brothers.
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Elaborate on why you consider Papias of Hierapolis, Hegesippus, Clement of Alexandria, Eusebius of Caesarea, and Jerome of Stridon unreliable sources for this thread topic.
I already did in some detail.
The apostle Paul wrote: The time is sure to come when, far from being content with sound teaching, people will be avid for the latest novelty and collect themselves a whole series of teachers according to their own tastes; and then, instead of listening to the truth, they will turn to myths.” (2 Timothy 4:3-4. Catholic Jerusalem Bible.) What an apt description of exactly what happened.

Evidence within the Bible itself shows that apostasy "already was at work" before the death of Christ’s apostles. (2 Thessalonians 2:3, 7; 1 John 2:18-19; Jude 3,4,16,19)
Apostates from within the Christian congregation rose up as false teachers. Instead of following Bible truth, these ungodly men turned to “myths.” They carried off many Christians as their prey “through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men.” (Colossians 2:8)

The early teachers who later became known as "church fathers", exploited the current philosophical conceptions of the day. They have been accused of Hellenizing Christianity (making it Greek in form and method), but they were in fact attempting to formulate it in intellectual categories suited to the times. They became the first Christian "theologians". These early “theologians” set about adapting primitive Bible-based Christianity to current philosophical ideas.

Refer back to the scriptural verses in the OP that illustrate Simon, Joseph, James, and Jude (Thaddeus) in Mt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 were not Jesus's stepbrothers, nor His half-brothers.
I did.....nothing has changed.
At the outset, the writer of the letter of James, identifies himself, not as an apostle, but as ‘a slave of the Lord Jesus Christ.’ Moreover, Jude’s introductory words, similar to those of James, mention Jude (or Judas) also as “a slave of Jesus Christ, but a brother of James.” (James 1:1; Jude 1) From this we can safely conclude that James and Jude, the fleshly half brothers of Jesus, wrote the Bible books that bear their names.

James was eminently qualified to write a letter of counsel to the Christian congregation, as he was greatly respected as an overseer in the Jerusalem congregation. Paul speaks of “James the brother of the Lord” as one of the “pillars” in the congregation along with Cephas and John. (Galatians 1:19; 2:9)

James’ prominence is indicated by Peter’s sending immediate word to “James and the brothers” after his release from prison. And it was James who acted as spokesman for “the apostles and the older men” when Paul and Barnabas journeyed to Jerusalem to request a decision regarding circumcision.

I think you need to face it....Jesus had half siblings, and Mary was not "ever virgin"....can you show me scripture that says so?
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
It seems such a shame to me that the Catholic Church trains it’s people from infancy not to think, or study, but to perform. Performance is mindless and ritual supplants any meaningful connection with God or his Christ.

I have taught the Bible to many Catholic people over the years, and the one thing they all had in common was complete ignorance of the Bible and it’s message, relying on the church instead of God for their salvation, convinced that their performance would somehow be enough.
When the Bible was opened up to them, they could not believe how much they had been missing. And they were appalled at how many things they did were actually offensive to God. (Like their use of images, the crucifix, rosary beads and the mindless repetition of prayers)

Since I believe that all of Christendom was spawned by the Catholic Church, (having the same core of erroneous beliefs) their claims to be Christian fall way short in so many areas IMO. As one who came out of Christendom, I saw very clearly that most of what they taught was not from the teachings of Jesus and the apostles. These I believe, are the “weeds” of Jesus’ parable.

Whenever their beliefs conflict with scripture, they will side with the church every time and make excuses about how the scriptures should be read. This one on Mary is a classic example. The Bible clearly says that Joseph had relations with his wife after the birth of Jesus, and that he had at least six siblings. But since their ‘mother goddess’ had to remain ‘ever virgin’ the scriptures must mean something else. Oh well....:shrug:
Let's not get too hard on the Catholics. Their beliefs were influenced by the pagans around them originally, which is understandable. Today a lot of them are scared of hell if they look at any other religion in any unbiased way. My wife finds the secular Franciscans to be mostly sweethearts, but they are afraid when any belief is challenged.
 

Soul

Member
I already did in some detail.

You spoke generally, and not in "some detail," but to great lengths. Again, in other words, what did Papias of Hierapolis, Hegesippus, Clement of Alexandria, Eusebius of Caesarea, and Jerome of Stridon each specifically do that deviated from the teachings of Jesus and His apostles, and thus makes them unreliable sources for this thread topic?

I did.....nothing has changed.
At the outset, the writer of the letter of James, identifies himself, not as an apostle, but as ‘a slave of the Lord Jesus Christ.’ Moreover, Jude’s introductory words, similar to those of James, mention Jude (or Judas) also as “a slave of Jesus Christ, but a brother of James.” (James 1:1; Jude 1) From this we can safely conclude that James and Jude, the fleshly half brothers of Jesus, wrote the Bible books that bear their names.

The OP and post #2 show the authors of the James and Jude epistles were Jesus's apostles, James and Jude (Thaddeus) of Alphaeus, who were also two of His brothers, in Mt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3, as in "kin," specifically, cousins. Your counter-argument is that since the authors of these epistles identified themselves in one instance as a "servant [slave] of Jesus Christ" (Jm. 1:1) and a "servant [slave] of Jesus Christ" (Jd. 1:1), rather than an "apostle," they were not apostles, which is weak at best. Especially when it is written that those called in the Lord are the "bondman [slave] of Christ" (1 Co. 7:22) and Paul, for example, was called to the apostleship, and called both an "apostle" and a "servant [slave] of Christ" in a couple of instances (Rm. 1:1, Ti. 1:1), as well as solely called a "prisoner [slave] of Christ Jesus" in another (Pm. 1:1). Am I to expect anything further from you on this point, or was that all?

I think you need to face it....Jesus had half siblings...

Before I can face Jesus had half-brothers, you need to consider the word "brother" (ἀδελφός [adelphos]) has a range of meanings, e.g., "fellow believer," "kinsman," e.g., "sibling," "uncle," "nephew," "cousin," etc., and show the meaning "sibling" applies to its singular and/or plural form in the verses you believe to refer to His siblings.
 
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