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Is God Really Such a Bad Guy?

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
When I wrote the post I figured some folks would get stuck on the first paragraph.
Because your brought up one of the major examples to demonstrate that your god has a derranged, warped, and evil sense of morality, and you are trying to say this doesn't really make Yahweh a bad god. He is so violent and bloodthirsty that not even cattle are safe when he sends someone to war. Nor are the unborn safe from the wrath and fury and genocidal lusts of Yahweh.
You might as well say "sure, Hitler killed all these Jews, but look at all the great stuff he did for Germany. He wasn't so bad when you look at his labor laws, animals rights, and the Volkswagen." But Hitler was not a good person, nor is a Yahweh/Jehovah anything but an evil god.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
I have read the bible, several of them so your attempt as sarcasm fails. The message you believe it offers seems to omit the bad bits... Anyone can make even Hitler down good if they omit the bad bits.
Hitler was by far the greatest statesman Germany ever had....

...until the Nazi part kicked in.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Because with Snape the explanation is given why he was a good guy all along, can you point to the part of the bible which explains why god says he is jealous?
I looked at apologetic sources and apparently the answer was, get this, there are apparently two kinds of jealousy.

A good Jealousy and a bad Jealousy.

Question: God is a jealous God? Isn’t jealousy a sin?

*yikes*

Like comparativly saying there is in effect a good rape and a bad rape I suppose.
 

SigurdReginson

Grēne Mann
Premium Member
So what is gods justification for what he did in the OT, where does the author explain as Rowling does?

This is what I want to know.

It's never explained why god did the horrible things he did... Just that "Hey! God sent Jesus to save mankind" and then the stuff where God's conquest of Canaan and all the other terrible things that supposedly happened under his direction, like sex slavery for the women of the conquered Midianites, just kind of goes away without mention. Where is the explanation that this was in fact a good thing that needed to happen? Why did the women of the conquered Midianites need to become sex slaves?

It's been thousands of years. I think we deserve an answer at this point.
 
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SigurdReginson

Grēne Mann
Premium Member
I looked at apologetic sources and apparently the answer was, get this, there are apparently two kinds of jealousy.

A good Jealousy and a bad Jealousy.

Question: God is a jealous God? Isn’t jealousy a sin?

*yikes*

Like comparativly saying there is a good rape and a bad rape.

"God is jealous in a very different kind of way. God wants us to love him. Why? Because He loves us and wants what’s best for us. God knows that if we love things more than him, we’re hurting our own lives."

Yikes is right...

Imagine if a human being were to exact "god's jealousy" (according to this guy) onto another person...
 
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savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I like it when Christians say God never changes or his way is righteousness beyond human understanding in light of the horrific and barbaric behaviors in the Old Testament.
No, you don't! You do not "like it". OK. If you actually do "like it", care to share why on Earth that you do "like it'?
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
No, you don't! You do not "like it". OK. If you actually do "like it", care to share why on Earth that you do "like it'?
Because it sheds light on just how badly screwed up Christianity is when it comes to things like this.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
God is often portrayed as a rather coarse individual in the Old Testament. Some incredibly grizzly things are said to be done by God. He is said to encourage the Israelite warriors to basically rape the women taken captive in the many wars they had with surrounding nations after killing all the males. What's up with that?

Severus Snape was a rather evil individual throughout most of the story in Harry Potter. He was, like God's portrayal in the OT, a rather evil person. It was only at the end the we learn Severus was really a good guy all along. The author portrayed him as evil for her own reasons. The exact same literary tool is used in the scriptures. In the end, it turns out God is not a bad guy at all, but instead He is the epitome of love and light.

Why as God portrayed as evil in the Old Testament when He was never evil at all? There are many reasons for that, but in this post I'm just pointing out that the portrayal of God in the OT is not at all descriptive of His true nature, which, as I said above, is love and pure light. The NT makes it plain that there is NO darkness whatsoever in God.

The true nature of God was revealed by Jesus Christ. Jesus was a perfect representation of God. He always did exactly what God told him to do. Jesus was an exact image of God. Therefore, if you can't see Jesus doing any harm to anyone, then neither does God.

The only thing that remains is to understand why God utilized the literary tool of making the good guy appear bad until the end.

Well, they say that humans were created in God's image, and many of us humans have been pretty awful. Some are good, though. So, I guess God can go either way - good or evil, just like humans.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Because it sheds light on just how badly screwed up Christianity is when it comes to things like this.
But, Christianity is about this*, which I believe is the truth for everybody.

*Ephesians 5:4 NIV: "Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving

*ESV: "Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving."

*KJV: "Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks."

I could go one but I think I won't.

Sarcasm has no place in serious talk. IMO
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
I "love" it when non-religious people judge God using Christian principles.
In many religions, rape isn't a problem, for example. In Islam it's condoned in certain circumstances.
Jesus was the one who started treating women as equal in a time when it was unheard of.
For some one to judge God it would seem that they would have to have some kind of belief system to judge him by.
If they don't believe in a god, who is setting these rules about killing and rape being " bad"?
Isn't that rather close-minded?
 

SigurdReginson

Grēne Mann
Premium Member
I "love" it when non-religious people judge God using Christian principles.

What about it do you "love?" Please explain the irony for me.

In many religions, rape isn't a problem, for example.

Maybe you'd like to provide an example of this. Also, maybe you'd like to provide an example of those being against rape as portrayed in the bible also being ok with rape portrayed from those other religions?

In Islam it's condoned in certain circumstances.

Could you provide an example of this? More specifically, could you point to a piece of scripture from the Quran where this is portrayed? If you do this, then I could tell you why I do or do not agree with the rape given in your example. o_O

Chances are, I'm not going to like it given that rape is a pretty universally terrible thing...

Jesus was the one who started treating women as equal in a time when it was unheard of.

But this isn't really the topic in question, is it? We aren't talking about god the son, we are talking about god the father, and how what he did in the old testament was monstrous according to scripture; do we just sweep that stuff under the carpet and pretend it's not there?

For some one to judge God it would seem that they would have to have some kind of belief system to judge him by.

Maybe you could unpack this more for me... What do you mean by "belief system?"

If they don't believe in a god, who is setting these rules about killing and rape being " bad"?
Isn't that rather close-minded?

Do I need to have someone (or some god) tell me that rape is bad to know that rape is bad? The suffering rape produces is pretty self evident...
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
So what is gods justification for what he did in the OT, where does the author explain as Rowling does?
From my post #18:

"You'd have to read all of that in the New Testament. That's where we learn who God really is."
Besides, the question of justifying God is moot. He doesn't need to be justified from someting He didn't do. The whole point is, as it turns out and as we learn in the NT, God never did any of that bad stuff to begin with. That would be Satan. We just don't know who really caused the problems until the NT. Jesus revealed Satan. There are reasons God wrote the book that way, none of with which I'll bore you. :)

If you read just the first 95% of Harry Potter, it is as clear as clear can be that Snapes is a villain, bent on murder and mayhem. It's not until the last part where we learned that the portrayal of Snapes as a bad guy was not true. He in fact was a good guy all along.

So is a big reveal at the end of a story a valid literary style or not? If so, why not for the Bible?
 

SigurdReginson

Grēne Mann
Premium Member
From my post #18:

"You'd have to read all of that in the New Testament. That's where we learn who God really is."
Besides, the question of justifying God is moot. He doesn't need to be justified from someting He didn't do. The whole point is, as it turns out and as we learn in the NT, God never did any of that bad stuff to begin with. That would be Satan. We just don't know who really caused the problems until the NT. Jesus revealed Satan. There are reasons God wrote the book that way, none of with which I'll bore you. :)

If you read just the first 95% of Harry Potter, it is as clear as clear can be that Snapes is a villain, bent on murder and mayhem. It's not until the last part where we learned that the portrayal of Snapes as a bad guy was not true. He in fact was a good guy all along.

So is a big reveal at the end of a story a valid literary style or not? If so, why not for the Bible?

Numbers 31:17-31

[Num 31:17-31 NIV] 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. 19 "Anyone who has killed someone or touched someone who was killed must stay outside the camp seven days. On the third and seventh days you must purify yourselves and your captives. 20 Purify every garment as well as everything made of leather, goat hair or wood." 21 Then Eleazar the priest said to the soldiers who had gone into battle, "This is what is required by the law that the LORD gave Moses: 22 Gold, silver, bronze, iron, tin, lead 23 and anything else that can withstand fire must be put through the fire, and then it will be clean. But it must also be purified with the water of cleansing. And whatever cannot withstand fire must be put through that water. 24 On the seventh day wash your clothes and you will be clean. Then you may come into the camp." 25 The LORD said to Moses, 26 "You and Eleazar the priest and the family heads of the community are to count all the people and animals that were captured. 27 Divide the spoils equally between the soldiers who took part in the battle and the rest of the community. 28 From the soldiers who fought in the battle, set apart as tribute for the LORD one out of every five hundred, whether people, cattle, donkeys or sheep. 29 Take this tribute from their half share and give it to Eleazar the priest as the LORD's part. 30 From the Israelites' half, select one out of every fifty, whether people, cattle, donkeys, sheep or other animals. Give them to the Levites, who are responsible for the care of the LORD's tabernacle." 31 So Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the LORD commanded Moses.

What you say doesn't jive with scripture. It says clearly here that the LORD ordered it.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
I think it is wrong to claim that He encouraged to rape. No Biblical reason to think so.
Yes and no. God did say this to King David:

2 Sam 12:11,

Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give [them] unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.
But it is not until the New Testament, after Jesus revealed the devil for what he is, that we learn that it never really was God that did any evil. It was the devil that did all of that. You have to read and understand the entire scope of scripture to see that God is light and there is no darkness in Him. If that is understood, then we must look for other reasons why God "seems" so evil in the Old Testament. He true character never was revealed until the end of the story. No different than Severus Snapes in Harry Potter.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
Do I need to have someone (or some god) tell me that rape is bad to know that rape is bad? The suffering rape produces is pretty self evident
So your qualification for something being bad is suffering? I'm not claiming rape is ever good, I'm saying morality is flexible and situational unless there's some universal rule about it. Like perhaps: " Do unto others as you would have them do to you."

Did you ever think perhaps some of what God allowed in the OT wasn't his will at all, but his way of dealing with rebellious people?
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
Why as God portrayed as evil in the Old Testament when He was never evil at all? There are many reasons for that, but in this post I'm just pointing out that the portrayal of God in the OT is not at all descriptive of His true nature, which, as I said above, is love and pure light. The NT makes it plain that there is NO darkness whatsoever in God.

The true nature of God was revealed by Jesus Christ. Jesus was a perfect representation of God. He always did exactly what God told him to do. Jesus was an exact image of God. Therefore, if you can't see Jesus doing any harm to anyone, then neither does God.
How did you make the judgement that the OT is not correctly describing God, but that the NT does? Just wondering, because it seems you simply chose to believe the NT, because you find it more appealing than the OT. But that would be a fairly bad way to determine truth.

I mean, I prefer that there is no such thing as nasty and deadly disease and therefore I will just believe that there ain't. Im pretty sure that, you would agree that it would be a bad way to handle truth and also rather unjustified way to reason.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
Numbers 31:17-31

[Num 31:17-31 NIV] 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. 19 "Anyone who has killed someone or touched someone who was killed must stay outside the camp seven days. On the third and seventh days you must purify yourselves and your captives. 20 Purify every garment as well as everything made of leather, goat hair or wood." 21 Then Eleazar the priest said to the soldiers who had gone into battle, "This is what is required by the law that the LORD gave Moses: 22 Gold, silver, bronze, iron, tin, lead 23 and anything else that can withstand fire must be put through the fire, and then it will be clean. But it must also be purified with the water of cleansing. And whatever cannot withstand fire must be put through that water. 24 On the seventh day wash your clothes and you will be clean. Then you may come into the camp." 25 The LORD said to Moses, 26 "You and Eleazar the priest and the family heads of the community are to count all the people and animals that were captured. 27 Divide the spoils equally between the soldiers who took part in the battle and the rest of the community. 28 From the soldiers who fought in the battle, set apart as tribute for the LORD one out of every five hundred, whether people, cattle, donkeys or sheep. 29 Take this tribute from their half share and give it to Eleazar the priest as the LORD's part. 30 From the Israelites' half, select one out of every fifty, whether people, cattle, donkeys, sheep or other animals. Give them to the Levites, who are responsible for the care of the LORD's tabernacle." 31 So Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the LORD commanded Moses.

What you say doesn't jive with scripture. It says clearly here that the LORD ordered it.
Yes. As clear as the fact that Severus Snapes was evil throughout 95% of the book.

I was clear in my OP that God is said to have done terrible things. I even mentioned rape. But, I went beyond that.

If you want the whole story, whether Harry Potter or the Bible, you have to read the whole thing. If you did that with Harry Potter, you would learn that Snapes was in fact a good guy all along. If you did that with the Bible, you would learn that God was in fact a good guy all along.
 

Dan From Smithville

Recently discovered my planet of origin.
Staff member
Premium Member
Would you compare the bible to a fictional story? I do, but do you?
I noticed that the comparison is between God and the fictional character Snape. But this appears to be done merely to compare the similarity in perception of the two. However, I do find it interesting that it is a comparison with fiction.
 
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