Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
I don't want to argue anymore. It's not worth my time or yours, either. In the end we do as we will, whether determined or not.
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Do we really have free will?
- Thread starter Trailblazer
- Start date
I see. You mean whatever you believe now is not what you know/perceive in yourself and life but what some holy books tell you how you are supposed to see your reality.
On my side, it is exactly the inverse. I knew that Jesus only (no matter if he is real or not) is not a mere mortal human because He (unlike anyone else) knew in advance what I perceive in myself and what I was able to also discover in the real world before and after I knew Him.
So all references about life, said holy or else, other than of Jesus (in person) are NOT for me; including the rest of the Bible that still interests believers in Judaism, formal Christianity and Islam.
Now, I guess all selfish persons should feel very well when they know that they will be also recompensed by God in the next life, in the spiritual world
I reacted like Jesus did when I faced this situation twice (about 4 decades ago); I was accused of a serious crime which I had no idea of and when I was suspected being a terrorist; besides other cases in which I was supposed to go to prison. But, all these cases were closed on the same day they started.
About the crime for which I had to be hanged and before I reached the police station in which the accusation was made (because it took me about 2 hours to know which policemen in the city were searching me), the chief officer told me that the case was closed. He told me that a few persons whom I never met came to the police station and proved my innocence! This is a brief of a rather long story.
In the remaining cases, I saw myself talking much like Jesus says:
“But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Spirit.”
My soul can be fed to survive for eternity whenever I have the chance to live the unconditional love towards all others; otherwise my soul would simply die as it didn’t exist in the first place.
Sorry, you know better than I do that Allah created you to worship Him. This is natural for you because what we could expect from a One-Being Supreme Supernatural King other than acting like a selfish powerful worldly king looking for followers and slaves?
So as long you have to believe (as billions of humans have to do) in such limited image of God, you can forget all about the image of God as revealed by Jesus himself (by Jesus himself not by any other man on the Bible or else).
Should I repeat that SON of DESERT doesn’t mean that DESERT has to be a FATHER?!
Should I repeat that SON of EVIL doesn’t mean that EVIL has to be a FATHER?!
Alas, this doesn’t prevent those who have no idea of God, as revealed by Jesus, to insist that SON of GOD should mean that GOD is a FATHER.
After all, nothing can be done about this discrepancy because every human has the right to understand a word (SON here) differently so that every meaning, he chooses, can suit better his priorities in life.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Yes, I believe the revealed Word of God.
I did not say that selfish persons will be recompensed. I said that people who had no chances to do good deeds will be recompensed.
We all have different beliefs. I believe the soul is immortal so all souls continue to exist in the next life.
God does not want our worship for His sake, He wants it for our sake, because it is beneficial for us to worship God.
Yes, I do know that God created me to know and worship Him because it is in the Baha’i Short Obligatory Prayer:
Short Obligatory Prayer
TO BE RECITED ONCE IN TWENTY FOUR HOURS, AT NOON.
I bear witness, O my God, that Thou hast created me to know Thee and to worship Thee. I testify, at this moment, to my powerlessness and to Thy might, to my poverty and to Thy wealth.
There is none other God but Thee, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.
Bahá’u’lláh
Short Obligatory Prayer
halbhh
The wonder and awe of "all things".
Please consider the very text you quote in just a little more detail:
You quoted from the important end times prophecy in Matthew chapter 24.
And just have a look at precisely what it says:
23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it.
24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
25 See, I have told you ahead of time.
26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man."
Christ's return will be so dramatic that all the world will fall on it's knees: "Every knee will bow" -- not even 1 person in the world will doubt at that moment the reality -- Christ the Lord returned.
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."
There will not be 1 soul that can doubt any longer at that moment. And many will mourn because they will realize then they rejected the only begotten Son of God, Jesus the Christ.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Many false messiahs and false prophets did appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive and that is why Jesus warned of that.
Baha'u'llah did come as lightning that comes from the east and He was visible even in the west, so He fulfilled that prophecy.
We know that the return of Christ won't be Jesus because Jesus never said He would return to earth.
Jesus said His work was finished here and He was no more in the world. (John 14:19, John 17:11, John 17:4, John 19:30)
Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?
Hypothetically speaking, if Jesus did return, how do you think anyone, let alone everyone, would know it was Jesus? After all, most people did not recognize Jesus the first time He came. Bodies do not float down in the clouds, that is a fantasy. But even if that happened.....
If Jesus returned to this world, how would you know it was Jesus?
I never rejected Jesus, I love Jesus, but I reject the false belief that He is going to return to earth. This belief that the same Jesus is going to return is unsupported by the Bible so it is just a false hope,
It is important to note that Jesus never promised to return to earth, not once in the New Testament, and that means that the return of Christ referred to in the New Testament had to be another man. Baha'is believe that man was Baha'ullah. As the Bible says he would come with a new name, so we know he would not be called Jesus.
Isaiah 62:2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the Lord shall name.
Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
Revelation 3:12-13 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
The new name means that the return of Christ would be another man. Why would Jesus change his name if he wanted people to know He was Jesus? Sadly, Christians do not bother to think about what these verses actually mean -- what the Spirit saith unto the churches -- yet they have completely disregarded what the Spirit said because they STILL believe that the same Jesus is going to come down from heaven on the clouds.
Christians have an emotional attachment to the man Jesus so they will never stop waiting for Him to return, even though He never promised to return. It is really sad that they keep waiting for something that is never going to happen.
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I believe I have free will, but many people tell me that is an illusion. I do not know and have not come to a final conclusion yet. I wonder if you can separate the will do something from the ability to do something. I might have the will to hold my breath, but I have only the ability to do that for so long before I pass out or gasp for breath. Many functions of my own body are carried out regardless of my will, but I can will myself to stand or sit or lie down while all that is going on. It remains a mystery to me, but an interesting one worth discovering more about.
RestlessSoul
Well-Known Member
In my belief you cannot make any difference. There are innumerable variables and things will happen. Emperor Humayun after regaining his empire slipped on the staircase of his library and died. That is why Krishna says in Gita (not that I believe Krishna is real"
"our actions alone are in your handsbut never the results of your action." (Karmaneyvadhikaraste, ma phaleshu kadachana).
Krishna knew about theories of probability and uncertainty.
Krishna tells Arjuna that he has a duty to act, does he not? But that he should dedicate all actions to Krishna, and detach himself from the fruits of those actions?
So Arjuna does have a will of his own, and a duty to fulfill, but he should align his will to the will of the Universe? At the same time, one’s will may be illusory;
Everywhere
actions are performed
by the gunas
of nature.
The Self, confused
by the idea of an I,
thus thinks,
‘I am the doer’.
BG 3: 27
So is one of the themes of the BG, that we live in a determinist universe, but that we must still find and fulfill our Dhamma within it?
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Kindly remember that you are talking to an atheist Advaitist Hindu. So, Krishna is none other than me (non-duality). In my humble opinion, we do not know who all have written Gita. There have been many interpolations, particularly by the theist Vaishnavas. 'Submit to me' is a theist idea. Sure, Krishna asked Arjuna to perform his 'dharma', the necessary approved actions - for a soldier, fight, and not let it be compounded by any other emotion like relations, anger, hate, greed, pride. That he says very clearly in many verses:
"Karmani eva adhikaraste, ma phaleshu kadachana, ma karma-phala heturbhuh, ma sangah to akarmani."
Action alone is in your domain, not the result of action; do not act for the results of your action, do not associate with inaction.
"Ya enaṁ vetti hantāraṁ, yaś cainaṁ manyate hatam; ubhau tau na vijānīto, nāyaṁ hanti na hanyate."
Neither he who thinks this (the living entity) is the slayer nor he who thinks it slain is in knowledge, for thIs (what exists) slays not nor is slain.
"vedāvināśinaṁ nityaṁ, ya enam ajam avyayam; kathaṁ sa puruṣaḥ pārtha, kaṁ ghātayati hanti kam?
O Pārtha, how can a person who knows that it (what exists) is indestructible, eternal, unborn and immutable kill anyone or cause anyone to kill?
"sukha-duḥkhe same kṛtvā, lābhālābhau jayājayau; tato yuddhāya yujyasva, naivaṁ pāpam avāpsyasi."
Get on to fight, without considering happiness or distress, loss or gain, victory or defeat – and by so doing you shall never incur sin.
Sorry for the extensive copy/post, normally not my way of posting. I wanted to show that Gita can be read in another way, which discusses 'dharma' (duty) only, without requiring submission to any God. You normally only get biased translations of Gita which go beyond the original.
"Karmani eva adhikaraste, ma phaleshu kadachana, ma karma-phala heturbhuh, ma sangah to akarmani."
Action alone is in your domain, not the result of action; do not act for the results of your action, do not associate with inaction.
"Ya enaṁ vetti hantāraṁ, yaś cainaṁ manyate hatam; ubhau tau na vijānīto, nāyaṁ hanti na hanyate."
Neither he who thinks this (the living entity) is the slayer nor he who thinks it slain is in knowledge, for thIs (what exists) slays not nor is slain.
"vedāvināśinaṁ nityaṁ, ya enam ajam avyayam; kathaṁ sa puruṣaḥ pārtha, kaṁ ghātayati hanti kam?
O Pārtha, how can a person who knows that it (what exists) is indestructible, eternal, unborn and immutable kill anyone or cause anyone to kill?
"sukha-duḥkhe same kṛtvā, lābhālābhau jayājayau; tato yuddhāya yujyasva, naivaṁ pāpam avāpsyasi."
Get on to fight, without considering happiness or distress, loss or gain, victory or defeat – and by so doing you shall never incur sin.
Sorry for the extensive copy/post, normally not my way of posting. I wanted to show that Gita can be read in another way, which discusses 'dharma' (duty) only, without requiring submission to any God. You normally only get biased translations of Gita which go beyond the original.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I believe that we make choices based upon our desires and preferences. Our desires and preferences come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. How free we cannot do everything we might want to do because we either don't have the ability or the opportunity or there is something else we have to do instead or because we choose to sacrifice what we want for another person.
How free we are varies with each situation we find ourselves in. However, we have the ability to make our own choices unless we are incarcerated. Otherwise, we are looking at determinism, blaming all our actions on our past experiences and our heredity and having no moral responsibility for our actions.
Some people believe that fate/God is controlling everything we do and everything we will ever do already been decided upon by God and we are just acting out what has been written on the Tablet of Fate, as if we are all just actors in a movie that God has scripted. That makes no sense to me because that would reduce us to mere robots. I do believe that God knows everything we will ever do and how we will end up, but God does not cause us to do what we do by His foreknowledge, not anymore than a astronomer causes an ecliptic to happen just because he knows when it will happen in the future.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
It is not a deterministic world, it is an uncaring world. What we perceive or do will not make any difference to the working of the universe. The universe does not care two hoots for humans. It has seen many such species come and go. It does not mean anything more than a dream. It is 'maya', which is different from the truth. But since we are here, we need to fulfill the requirements of of the dream for our own sake. Otherwise, we will face a more unpleasant dream. It is 'Dharma', which can make the dream sweeter, palatable.
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RestlessSoul
Well-Known Member
I agree that all texts - scripture or poetry, religious or secular - are subject to a variety of interpretation. And even the authors themselves might be reluctant to confirm which interpretation is right, and which is wrong. Neither the hand which holds the pen, nor the mind which wills it, are independent of the many forces which move it across the page.
That Krishna, as manifested in the Gita, is not other but is oneself, or a facet of oneself, makes perfect sense I think. If I have understood you, he and Arjuna are one phenomenon, one being? Yes why not.
There must be several troublesome verses in the Gita though, for someone who has no belief in divinity of any sort? I do only have English translations to go on, it’s true. Not one word of Sanskrit I’m afraid.
Presumably you believe the Universe is entirely indifferent to the fate of man? Fair enough. I think otherwise; but it’s the same universe we occupy, atheist and believer. A universe with which we must reach an accommodation - I would say a spiritual accommodation - if we are to find peace in this life.
I am not particularly concerned myself with the next life; that can take care of itself. Our purpose I think is to live well in this one. Krishna does tell Arjuna though, does he not, not to mourn the men he kills in battle, for they cannot die?
Yes, I think it’s all a dream, within a dream. From which we may awake, either to a further dream, or perhaps to a place of perfect clarity and light (Nirvana).
Or perhaps all the constituent parts of ourselves will simply be absorbed by the unfolding universe. Then our individual consciousness will be no more; but perhaps the universe itself is conscious. Who knows?
That Krishna, as manifested in the Gita, is not other but is oneself, or a facet of oneself, makes perfect sense I think. If I have understood you, he and Arjuna are one phenomenon, one being? Yes why not.
There must be several troublesome verses in the Gita though, for someone who has no belief in divinity of any sort? I do only have English translations to go on, it’s true. Not one word of Sanskrit I’m afraid.
Presumably you believe the Universe is entirely indifferent to the fate of man? Fair enough. I think otherwise; but it’s the same universe we occupy, atheist and believer. A universe with which we must reach an accommodation - I would say a spiritual accommodation - if we are to find peace in this life.
I am not particularly concerned myself with the next life; that can take care of itself. Our purpose I think is to live well in this one. Krishna does tell Arjuna though, does he not, not to mourn the men he kills in battle, for they cannot die?
Yes, I think it’s all a dream, within a dream. From which we may awake, either to a further dream, or perhaps to a place of perfect clarity and light (Nirvana).
Or perhaps all the constituent parts of ourselves will simply be absorbed by the unfolding universe. Then our individual consciousness will be no more; but perhaps the universe itself is conscious. Who knows?
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Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
You are correct. Gita for me is a dialogue with myself. Must have been so for the original writer. Gita was written later than 400 BCE after Sanskrit grammarian, Panini, codified it. It is in what is called 'Modern or Modified Sanskrit', which is different from Vedic and old-Vedic languages.
Yeah, there are many verses which I ignore, because I am not a 'submit to me' person.
The accommodation is what has happened in India in the last 3000 years - You do your thing, I do mine; no conflict. The conflict arises when someone transgresses the domain.That is true. If one belives in non-duality, then that entity is never ever born, and never ever dies, because that will take the whole universe with it. That is what is meant by 'Ayamatma Brahman' (I am Brahman) and 'Tat twam asi' (That is what you are). for a believer in non-duality, all things in the universe, without any exception, are Brahman only. There is no second entity. 'Eko Brahma, Dwiteeyo Nasti' (Brahman is one, there is no second).
When our life-time is over, we merge in nature. What constituted us will go to millions of living being and non-living substances. The 7 octillion (i.e., 7 x 10 raised to power 27) atoms in our body will find their abodes separately. That will no more be us. Nirvana (understanding) has to be attained in this very life. A minuscule get it, the majority dies in ignorance. As I have already said, it makes no difference to the universe. The universe has its own kind of consciousness (spooky action at a distance).
halbhh
The wonder and awe of "all things".
Because the event this chapter is describing, as we see in the wording clearly, will be so overwhelming that every knee on Earth (100% of human beings) will bow (in whatever way they can, which for the majority would be falling literally on their knees).
So, that won't be simply millions, or even a large portion like 1/2 of people. In that moment, 100% of all human beings on Earth -- together -- the text tells us, will be acknowledging the undeniable reality.
So, of course, any and every instance of anyone showing up where less than 100% of people bow would not be and could not be the "coming on the clouds".
So, every prophet/figure, 100% that have come, but didn't have this total Earth human population of all-at-once recognition, isn't the event here in the text.
There will not be any doubters after this occurs.
As you can see, I believe what the text is saying, and thus I believe this event will occur eventually.
I agree. I think we have free will within the confines of the internal and external conditions as the best way I can put it. I cannot will myself to fly from point A to point B, but I can by a ticket and take a plane to point B. There are things that make me wonder about those conditions. Brain injuries that alter our mental abilities and changes the choices seems to confound my view, for instance.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
The Universe simply exists, so how can it be indifferent? It has no mind and no will.
Isn't it the Creator we should be concerned about, as to whether He is indifferent or not?
But how can we really ever know?
halbhh
The wonder and awe of "all things".
Well, if the oneness of God (one deeply close to Him) would come here to willingly interpose himself in between us and evil, so as to shelter and free us from the domination/grip of evil, even suffering the impact of our evils against Himself without striking back, in an act of self-sacrificial aid to us.... That would not be indifferent.The Universe simply exists, so how can it be indifferent? It has no mind and no will.
Isn't it the Creator we should be concerned about, as to whether He is indifferent or not?
But how can we really ever know?
I think you'd agree. If someone willingly suffers a lot (of our evils) in order to save us, it's a real act of love and caring.
RestlessSoul
Well-Known Member
The Universe simply exists, so how can it be indifferent? It has no mind and no will.
Isn't it the Creator we should be concerned about, as to whether He is indifferent or not?
But how can we really ever know?
Well I think the Universe is God. And that the primary causal energy, the most powerful creative force, is love. And a universe powered by love is unlikely to be indifferent.
At the same time, perhaps paradoxically, I can kind of get on board with Eastern conception of an impersonal God. But as you say, we can never really know - God will always be, I think, beyond our comprehension.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I did not know you had pantheistic leanings. As a Baha'i, I believe that God and His Creation have always been separate. Although God is omnipresent, God is one and alone, apart from His Creation.
"And now concerning thy reference to the existence of two Gods. Beware, beware, lest thou be led to join partners with the Lord, thy God. He is, and hath from everlasting been, one and alone, without peer or equal, eternal in the past, eternal in the future, detached from all things, ever-abiding, unchangeable, and self-subsisting. He hath assigned no associate unto Himself in His Kingdom, no counsellor to counsel Him, none to compare unto Him, none to rival His glory. To this every atom of the universe beareth witness, and beyond it the inmates of the realms on high, they that occupy the most exalted seats, and whose names are remembered before the Throne of Glory.
Bear thou witness in thine inmost heart unto this testimony which God hath Himself and for Himself pronounced, that there is none other God but Him, that all else besides Him have been created by His behest, have been fashioned by His leave, are subject to His law, are as a thing forgotten when compared to the glorious evidences of His oneness, and are as nothing when brought face to face with the mighty revelations of His unity."
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 192-193
It might sound contradictory to the above, but Baha'is believe that God is a personal God, although the only was we can relate to God is through His Manifestations, what I normally refer to as Messengers of God.
Like Christians, Baha'is believe God is a personal God who is conscious of His Creation.
Personal God
While the Bahá'í writings teach of a personal god who is a being with a personality (including the capacity to reason and to feel love), they clearly state that this does not imply a human or physical form.[2]Shoghi Effendi writes:
What is meant by personal God is a God Who is conscious of His creation, Who has a Mind, a Will, a Purpose, and not, as many scientists and materialists believe, an unconscious and determined force operating in the universe. Such conception of the Divine Being, as the Supreme and ever present Reality in the world, is not anthropomorphic, for it transcends all human limitations and forms, and does by no means attempt to define the essence of Divinity which is obviously beyond any human comprehension. To say that God is a personal Reality does not mean that He has a physical form, or does in any way resemble a human being. To entertain such belief would be sheer blasphemy.[17][18]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God in the Baha'i Faith